on the value of forums

[Ernest Burden III]

I've been away from CGarchitect for a while. I hadn't meant it to be so long, but that's what happened. I did not abandon the forum or my friends here. I just needed to step away and re-think what I expect of a web forum. I was concerned I had mis-judged what could be accomplished by such a community and by me as a participant.

 

Last fall I had attempted a bit of social engineering and the results were not promising, even personally disappointing. I am still glad I tried, but aware that I was trying to do things that are unrealistic of a diverse professional group who all volunteer to congregate here for friendly support and professional contacts. Being preached to, or being led around by those of us with a long history in arch-vis is not what most users come to a forum for. It's hard for someone like me to resist. I'm used to the teaching role, but it has the unintended side effect of making me not as good a listener. I tell my sons that you cannot hear with your mouth open. And regardless of the value of what I post, there have been too darned many of them.

 

When I noticed I had made my 4,999th post, I decided to stop and think about what to make of the 5000th post. I was going to ponder this for a day or so, but it has become months. This is that post. My count was second only to STRAT, whom I am convinced is in reality an over-achieving AI program. No mortal mind could produce the volume of posts on multiple forums, along with all the meticulous testing and reporting and moderating and still run an arch-vis business. My post count was even above that of Jeff Mottle, this site's founder and owner. Too much me, not enough you.

 

So what should we expect of a professional forum like this?

 

The most valuable thing people should get from participating here is friendship. As professionals we are all competitors, but by hanging out together we can express that not as cut-throat combat but mutual challenges to improve by inspiring each other. We all want to win in the form of artistic and business success, but the vibe here is one where we see the way there as working together to build a better industry with more informed and confident practitioners. From our colleagues here we should expect support, advice, technical help, friendship and mutual understanding as we tend to all face the same issues in our work. However, none of us has 'the answer' to anything and solutions could as easily come from a newcomer to the field as an old hand. Listening is key, as is an open mind.

 

I will resume my former habit of reading this site daily (often hourly, truth-be-known) but will try to curb my run-away post count. I will also be more realistic with regard to what I expect from this or any forum. I see them as vital, but they cannot remain that way if we impose group-think on everyone. Diverse groups have diverse views, and that is something to respect and maintain at all costs.

[Claudio Branch]

Ernest,

 

I do not know you personally, but I feel like I know what you might be like in person. I came to this forum a little over three years ago and your name was one of the the first that I noticed. I started following your threads, because I agreed with alot of what you said and you always had a strong opinion.

 

I have also noticed your absence. 5000 posts is quite impressive. As long as someone is receiving good advice and perhaps even an on-line "friendship", I don't think you or anyone else could post too much.

 

Claudio

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

Welcome back.

 

I have been anticipating your section in the 3dats book on composition. Your knowledge and advice on the subject is second to none in arch viz, and is very useful on the board.

 

In one way the board is here for support, but also, I think back and forth participation in the board should make people better at what they do. And it does require veterans of the industry to make people understand what they are doing, and how to do it better. The problem is the same on this board as it is many online forums. The computer gives the communication a lack of personality, so people tend to communicate differently than what the would in real life. Though I think this is less of a problem on this forum, and community than what it is in other online places. This is due to many people knowing each other outside of the board. There is a lot of value in face to face communication.

 

Anyway, I think everyone in the community will benefit from your return.

Edited April 27, 2009 by Crazy Homeless Guy

[innerdream]

No mortal mind could produce the volume of posts on multiple forums, along with all the meticulous testing and reporting and moderating and still run an arch-vis business.

 

Unless he uses Maxwell or Fryrender.

[vizwhiz]

EBIII

 

This forum definately has real value because of The quality its contributors contributions

 

50,000 of your Posts (and counting ....) would be fine by me

[Ernest Burden III]

50,000 of your Posts (and counting ....) would be fine by me

 

Thanks, guys. I've been dreading the attention this posts draws to me since that is not my point. That alone had kept me away for part of the time. It's embarrassing. I just wanted to resume normal forumming without addressing my absence. But that was not possible, I realized, so took the opportunity to discuss the importance of forums like this. Let's keep it to that, if we can.

 

I have been busy, too. I'm not making so much money, but have been working. The challenge has been finding ways to work within what a client has to spend--which lately isn't much. I have been able to produce results by changing how I work. I hope that later clients return to what we used to think of as decent budgets, but I'm not counting on it. Now it's about value, so that's what I'm busy with. Later we go back to making the case for higher fees on higher quality.

[kippu]

ernest ...welcome back ... i had actually started a thread asking what happened to you and your step by step progress of projects that you used to post ...good to see you back

 

the importance of this forum and the others that i visit cannot be overlooked , i use it as an education to see the new stuff that people come up with , to measure upto their quality of work as much as possible (benchmarking) and yes that involves getting your lectures as a senior member ...speaking for myself professional criticism gives a good boost to do well in the future and reading back to what you said , i guess i have just written to what you have stated ... wb again

[ihabkal]

For me I also spent over a year not posting and then came back. I have found out that this forum is the only professional social activity I have, sadly, especially since i moved to Lebanon. If you spend all night and day working, you don't have asn outlet but here.

But this is a double edged sword: being online and having your comments available for anyone to see makes you an easy prey for cyber bullies. I am glad, despite the negatives, to see the people whose art inspires me, posting and responding to my posts.

[Ernest Burden III]

what happened to you and your step by step progress of projects that you used to post ...

 

Nothing happened, I just didn't post here for a bit. I have not done any new process posts largely because I have not changed my process much. I used to re-invent how I worked all the time, but a few years ago hit on a decent 'look' and have stuck with it. Clients like it and I can actually finish my projects if I stick to what is 'regular' instead of adding days of experimentation to every job.

 

Having said that, I did have a little downtime in January and used it to advance my 'automated' version of my workflow. That was time well spent because I have used the 'make pretty' button in Photoshop on every project I've done since. That's how I'm keeping costs down for clients. Then later I can justify a higher fee by returning to the hand-crafted approach. Or so goes the plan.

 

I am glad, despite the negatives, to see the people whose art inspires me, posting and responding to my posts.

 

Same here. It makes us all better renderers.

[Claudio Branch]

 

being online and having your comments available for anyone to see makes you an easy prey for cyber bullies.

 

 

Is virtual criticism less painful than criticism in person? Even when it's honest?

 

Posting work on-line is not for the timid. I think the format brings out the worst in some. It's easy to tear someone apart when you don't have to look them in the eyes...

[AJLynn]

Good to see you again, Ernest. I'll look forward to seeing what you're working on these days.

[Tommy L]

Hello Ernest,

I had noticed your absence too.

I wouldnt be worried about amassing 5000 posts. Its no biggie. Kind of like growing old, the years come along whether you try and push back the tide or not. Its just a number.

 

The good things about forums (and especially the regulars) is that you get to 'know' the people on them. This is great, because not only do you get feedback/advice, you also have a perception of the person giving the comments. The more they write, the more you get to know them. The better you know them, the more accurately you can judge their opinion.

 

So, the more eveyone posts on the forum, the better for everyone.

 

On another note:

I am now a sole artist. I co-own a business with 3 depts (3d, photography and retouching).

If I cant do something, I have no-one to ask. I cant ask my boss (thats me) I cant ask my colleagues (Im the only 3d guy). So this is the first place I come. For me, this is a hugely valuable resource. Its more than that, its an enjoyable resource.

[Chad Warner]

Ernest-

 

I've missed your posts as well. I think since you have been in the business for such a long time with such a varied skill set, I look forward to reading your take on certain topics, so with that being said, Keep up the post count!

 

This is one of two forums that I frequent with any regularity, and this is definitely the first place I come to look for answers. Like Tommy, I don't really have anyone else that I can ask specific questions, and 8 times out of 10, my questions get answered.

[AJLynn]

Holy crap. I've almost caught up with Ernest and I'm 4th on the list.

[EddieLeon]

So what should we expect of a professional forum like this?

 

Welcome back Ernest! I look forward to seeing you get your post count up to 10,000.

 

Regarding expectations for the forum, I think it should always be a great place to learn and share insights. Personally, I hope we can all continue to shed a little light on our industry so we can all get a better idea of where to take our careers and our companies. Times are tough for everyone and I am very impressed by how everyone here has put competition aside and been very open to giving helpful advice. I look forward to having you continue to be a part of these discussions.

[Inxa]

For me the forums have always been a great platform to learn, understand whats going on and keeping updated to the latest technology, some super inspirational work of art that keeps us going. Better my own standard of work. Understanding the situations world over, how people fare, studios work, Quality, clients and a lot more things.

 

And moreover meet all you guys.

[Nic H]

Interesting thread!

 

I stopped posting and reading here a bit over 2 months ago and havent looked back until today funnily enough. In that time i pretty much also 'gave up' the internet whcih has been great. I suddenly have all this free time and motivation! read books, made a new website, started drawing again etc.

 

I have gained an awful lot from this forum in teh past but now dont really find it as useful and often find myself dissapointed by the way arch vis stuff tends to be so directly industry related. I do realise that this is a necessity and people need to make money but compared to the innovation, technical expertise and creativity shown in places like the cgsociety awards gallery arch vis stuff really does leave me cold.

 

there doesnt seem to be much experimentation / pushing of different styles (maybe because we are all busy) or interest in sharing anything to be honest. I would of thought people who are low on work might have a try at inventing new ways to work or represent architecture, to differentiate themselves from the hoarde once work starts up again.

 

However the feedback here when you get it is always pretty good. Like Tommy said being familiar with someones personality and posting style is pretty important in being able to interpret what they are saying to you. Fresh critical eyes of any kind are always good imo.

 

(brb - going on another self imposed forum holiday)

[Scott Dombrowski]

On another note:

I am now a sole artist. I co-own a business with 3 depts (3d, photography and retouching).

If I cant do something, I have no-one to ask. I cant ask my boss (thats me) I cant ask my colleagues (Im the only 3d guy). So this is the first place I come. For me, this is a hugely valuable resource. Its more than that, its an enjoyable resource.

 

I am in a similar situation. As the only 3d guy in my company, the only place I have to look for answers to my questions are these forums. Chances are, someone else has already run into the same problem and has gotten a good variety of responses from the other members. I try to keep my relationship with the forum more on the "give" side than the "take" side by offering answers to questions, but honestly, by the time I read about a problem someone's having, nine veterans have already chimed in with their input. That's just awesome. And that's half the value of these forums... nearly instant support from people who really know what they're doing.

 

I think the other half of the value is in the feedback on the works in progress and finished work. This is something I don't participate in much because I'm not allowed to post the work that I do, but I'm going to make a point to visit those areas a little more often.

 

The third half (I know, the math doesn't add up, but that's why I'm in graphics and not physics) of the value in these forums is simply the ability to interact with a large number of highly talented people, which is something many people (myself included) don't have access to in the office. Call it "talent transfer by virtual osmosis".

 

Ernest, I enjoyed your presentation on composition at last year's DMVC and am glad to see you back on the forums. Your input is part of what makes these forums valuable for me.

[andreg]

I also have been reading your posts for a few years now. This forum has thought me so much as I also am the only 3D artist in my company. I would have never gotten this far without this forum. Speaking to people in my office about 3D is like speaking a foreign language... I really need a forum like this to help me judge the quality of my work and also share my experiences with the 3D community.

 

Thanks a lot Ernest for coming back to us!

[Fran]

Ernest who?

 

This is a great forum for learning, sharing, friendship, honing skills, and teasing. Not necessarily in that order.

[Ernest Burden III]

but compared to the innovation, technical expertise and creativity shown in places like the cgsociety awards gallery arch vis stuff really does leave me cold.

 

I think its the nature of the material we get paid to draw and who we're usually drawing it for. But I share your view on that. Also, CGtalk has among the best professional artists on Earth posting work. It's humbling to see the talent there. However, CGtalk, like that other industry heavyweight Siggraph, looks at arch-vis like a bug on the sidewalk. We're mildly interesting, but not of much lasting concern.

 

there doesnt seem to be much experimentation / pushing of different styles (maybe because we are all busy) or interest in sharing anything to be honest./QUOTE]

 

I agree there, as well. I hope people feel encouraged to post things that aren't typical, but if they aren't doing them then there's nothing to post. I think we do see a decent amount of NPR type work here, I would love to see more. With fewer people working in diverse styles there are fewer people to help those that want to. You get back to my comments about too few voices expressing ideas.

[Sawyer]

It had seemed to me Ernest like you were missing but I haven't been here very regularly since... well.. Nov 24... more or less.

 

Not sure I quite follow you on your self examination. You seem to be pretty comfortable in a teaching role and you are good at it. Of all the forums I have run across I don't know of anyone who puts more time into a thoughtful critique. Your professional demeanor really contributed to the success of this site. Maybe I am not clear on what you are thinking though.

 

Cant help but wonder if the glory days of architectural illustration are behind us now. I know this is a whole different subject and best not to stray from the topic.

 

As far as value of forums as a whole? I have worked by myself for the most part for 8 years and almost everything I have learned online. I taught a class this last Sat and of course I could teach what I have learned in 8 years in 4 hours. There you go.

[Nils Norgren]

Hi Ernest,

 

I had noticed you haven't been around, I hope you are well, sorry that we all didn't get to congregate at Vismaster's this year. I appreciate your thoughts on the value of the forums, I am jealous of your post count and your dedication to the forums. I don't go to the other forums very often (CGtalk, evermotion, vray), I do check this one (not as regularly as I should).

 

I think that the attitude that ours is a "looked down upon" industry is more a perception than reality, when at AU, the design vis activities were by far the most exciting (it's all a matter of context).

 

I always tell people that you can work in Hollywood and be a small cog in a huge machine, where you are very far away from any creative decision making, or an industry like ours where you can have your creative fingerprint on everything you touch. This may be an oversimplification, but it is my opinion that the attitude of ours being less important comes more from within our group then from outside.

 

I can say that Autodesk looks at the "Design Visualization" as a very real and important consumer base. We should toot our own horn as a powerful, serious artistic and creative industry. I am perhaps the optimist but having been in the profession for over 15 years, our industry is not going anywhere, there will always be changes but there is much to be positive about.

 

It's good to hear from you, glad you are back,

 

-Nils

[Ernest Burden III]

Not sure I quite follow you on your self examination. You seem to be pretty comfortable in a teaching role and you are good at it.

 

Well, sure. But I think I was doing too much 'teaching' and not enough learning by simply listening to the rest of you. And the social engineering piece was an over-reach, I decided. It left me disappointed and I had to ask why--was it because all of you are not up to some standard or was it because I was imposing a standard that doesn't belong in such a diverse group? It was the second.

 

I think that the attitude that ours is a "looked down upon" industry is more a perception than reality...it is my opinion that the attitude of ours being less important comes more from within our group then from outside.

 

Yes, I agree. And you are right about the greater freedom and (sometimes) better pay we can get in this area of CG vs. your typical Hollywood studio guy. 3D World Magazine has started doing a regular feature on arch-vis (the recent UAE/Middle East one was fantastic). I just wish we got more respect from Siggraph. And maybe the AIA, who often fail to credit the renderer in their own publications.

[landrvr1]

And maybe the AIA, who often fail to credit the renderer in their own publications.

 

 

Which they've been failing to do since, oh, Day 1.