Pechara Posted May 11, 2009 Author Share Posted May 11, 2009 Great posts everyone. I have seen some of my clients also move to internal 3D or outsorced 3D than shift back to us in the recent year because the have cut costs and there is no staff to do the work or the outsorcing is "just not working" for them. I can think of 3 clients right off the top of my head who did this in the past 30 days. It seems this is a very hot button topic for everyone. I know some of you here (includeing myslef) play both sides of the isle when it comes to the outsourcing as I know some of you you guys own or utilize Chinese/Indian firms. Than after doing this for years we complain that too much of the work is going overseas. Full disclosure before I ask my question: In the past I have also had 3D modeling done offshore when I got overloaded with work. I would guess that most of you started your business as a one man shop and as we grew we had hard choices to make. You could just turn the work down when you were too busy or you could find people to help you keep up with the load. Some of us over the last 15 years have built large companies. Some (like myself) stayed a 1 man shop on purpose because I was not interested in babysitting or managing employees. Over the past 10 years I have hired (as subs) people in the US and also in China and India on very specific projects were 3D modeling help was needed. So having said that Here is a question for all of you: Is there anything we can do about all this? Is there a way to start a "made in America" type campaign? or a "hire your local artist" campaign? Can we convince our clients not to move to offshore talent? Is there anything tangible that can be done to maintain our industry here? Or is this a case of capitalism at its best? Did we do this to ourselves? Like Karl Marx has said: "The last capitalist we hang shall be the one who sold us the rope" Don't want to sound doom and gloom. I think our industry will change and not disappear. I still maintain that small time operators and "go-to-guys" who work for small time architects and developers will do fine. I think the larger firms who rely on larger clients will have to scramble now because the larger clients have the resources and the know-how on how to find and implement a company in China. The larger architectural firms have to answer to investors so they constantly look at the bottom line. Most of the smaller architects / developers would rather have someone local they can keep on speed dial to help them with a project, to meet them at the job site to take some photos, to sit down and really look at the project instead of just e-mailing the CAD drawings into the internet "void". I can tell you from the "small-time-guy" perspective that all the large clients have always been hit and miss. They always questioned the price, and are always on the hunt for cheaper, even slave labor if it pleased the boss. All my small clients come back project after project because I'm here to get the job done. If I get a call from my client at 4 pm on a Friday and they need something for Monday afternoon. and I tell them, "it will be done" they can rest assured it will be, when I call them on that Saturday with questions about something, they know that I'm sitting there working on their project. You just don't get that same piece of mind when you e-mail your drawings to china. For all of us small guys, I think the small work will always be there, and there is nothing wrong with bread and butter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pechara Posted May 11, 2009 Author Share Posted May 11, 2009 I have noticed that some of you are reading these posts and trying to decide if they should stay in this industry. I would not read into these too much. Everyone life and needs are different. I would do my own independent research and make my own choice. My wife and I see the writing on the wall as much as you guys do. We both have more time on our hands and are starting a "unrelated to architectural anything" business. So if it takes 2 businesses to keep us busy, than so be it. For myself, I expect to always work in 3D visualization industry to some extent be it 1/2 time or part time. Good luck to all of us and keep your head high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 Is there a way to start a "made in America" type campaign? or a "hire your local artist" campaign? Can we convince our clients not to move to offshore talent? Is there anything tangible that can be done to maintain our industry here? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pechara Posted May 11, 2009 Author Share Posted May 11, 2009 did not think so. Just thought a big brainstorm might pop some ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerdream Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 No. Communication is your tool. Open and honest dialogue about service and price from both sides - either party can say no thanks but at least you know where you stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieLeon Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 did not think so. Just thought a big brainstorm might pop some ideas. Maybe the architects can be required to use only renderings produced on licensed software. You would need AIA and Autodesk to backup the effort. Technically speaking, if an architect uses a 3d vendor with unlicensed software then isn't the architect also breaking rules? Just a thought. By the way, the cost of software is not too expensive relative to the revenue an artist can make. So, the results of this idea might be minimal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fourthand11 Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 We're on the cusp of finding out if 'Capitalism' works. Every industry out there is feeling the emptiness of outsourcing. Make it costly to outsource and you've given your citizens a fighting chance. Our government has actually helped make it more affordable to outsource, that may be the problem. I'm not a fan of big government, but the U.S. is already heading that way with the bank crashes and auto industries in peril. I haven't heard anything about a visualization stimulus package yet, still waiting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moshenko Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 Given what the current administration is doing with it's "Buy American" infrastructure initiative - and I mean no offense to Americans in general, here - those of you in the US visualization market may get your wish soon enough. Industry here in Canada is already feeling the pain of US free-trade-when-we-feel-like-it policies (and I recognize that we provide much of our own nonsensical trade policies as well). I'm waiting for the moment when I am rejected for a project because my company is Canadian (or not American, if you prefer), not because I am not the lowest bidder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerdream Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 Given what the current administration is doing with it's "Buy American" infrastructure initiative - and I mean no offense to Americans in general, here - those of you in the US visualization market may get your wish soon enough. Wishful thinking. I don't think the American business man gives a rats ass about buy American. That's just a lot of noise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moshenko Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 Wishful thinking. I don't think the American business man gives a rats ass about buy American. That's just a lot of noise. Au contraire! It's more than noise - I read that a construction project in Maine was halted last week so that "Made in Canada" pipes could be dug up and replaced with "Made in USA" versions! Never doubt the potential for stupendous idiocy within government! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Denby Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 Don't want to sound doom and gloom. I think our industry will change and not disappear. I still maintain that small time operators and "go-to-guys" who work for small time architects and developers will do fine. I think the larger firms who rely on larger clients will have to scramble now because the larger clients have the resources and the know-how on how to find and implement a company in China. The larger architectural firms have to answer to investors so they constantly look at the bottom line. Most of the smaller architects / developers would rather have someone local they can keep on speed dial to help them with a project, to meet them at the job site to take some photos, to sit down and really look at the project instead of just e-mailing the CAD drawings into the internet "void". I can tell you from the "small-time-guy" perspective that all the large clients have always been hit and miss. They always questioned the price, and are always on the hunt for cheaper, even slave labor if it pleased the boss. All my small clients come back project after project because I'm here to get the job done. If I get a call from my client at 4 pm on a Friday and they need something for Monday afternoon. and I tell them, "it will be done" they can rest assured it will be, when I call them on that Saturday with questions about something, they know that I'm sitting there working on their project. You just don't get that same piece of mind when you e-mail your drawings to china. For all of us small guys, I think the small work will always be there, and there is nothing wrong with bread and butter! I agree with all that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerdream Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 Au contraire! It's more than noise - I read that a construction project in Maine was halted last week so that "Made in Canada" pipes could be dug up and replaced with "Made in USA" versions! Never doubt the potential for stupendous idiocy within government! And the construction crew was un-documented workers that sent their pay checks back "home" to help their families. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawla Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 (edited) Observation 1: 5 of the 7 were based in china, had Chinese people in the booth and frankly I did not really understand why they were there. My perspective as a "3D Guy" from India.. I have been running a small 3D outfit for the last 14 years here in India. I rarely if ever chase up jobs from outside India. In fact 80% of my work is from around New Delhi and the rest from all over India. The issues of communication are not just connected to language but also to the fact that people/architects want constant feedback, and at times need to be around getting changes done. We some times have to go across to set up angles and understand the finer points. So this is an issue even between Delhi, Bangalore and Hyderabad. The few jobs that I do get from outside India is when someone stumbles across our website and gets in touch. Our main competition here in India is also China. How they do the work at such low prices beats even me. Worst of all, they are good and fast. They tell me that having the USA based “go-to-guy” means lots to them. And to most architects all over the world. A "go to guy" in their own city... Observation 2: I saw 2 very large American companies and met the owners. I was not aware how large these firms are! With the current economy sucking and they have very little work compared to the insane monthly expenses, I would be surprised if they can stay in business much longer. These people spend more money a month then I make in 4 years! Being a business owner myself, I know that all the profits from years past can be erased in a matter of 6 months for these guys! After 14 years, I have realised big in our business is bad. Been through 2 recessions. The last one reduced me from 14 to 3 people. This one though worse has been less traumatic so far because we do good work (By Indian Standards) and have refused to lower our rates. Have reduced salaries though and business is down 50% from our last year levels but it is much better than the last recession in India because 3D is now a more accepted form of communicating designs. Anyway, I learned that it’s ok to be a small fish in a large pond. I think the next few years might be good for the small time operators. So true. Small and mid sized is the way forward. Max 15 to 20 employees I know that these shows are expensive, and I also understand that you just need to get 1 or 2 giant projects to roll in and the show will pay for itself no problem, but it just looks like a huge risk with little pay off. We do decent sized projects based on Indian conditions but have never found a client with a giant sized budget. If there ever were some, they must have gone to Singapore, China or the US. It seems like architects are now going to 100% incorporate this technology into their office and will only go outside of the office for the few project that need that special sparkle. In times of slowdown yes. But the need to employ a specialist 3D will always be there. IMHO you either spend time designing or doing 3D views that meet expections of the clients. Cannot do both all the time. Anuj Edited May 12, 2009 by rawla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawla Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 Ah...case in point. Have you been getting Crystal's "A" team or "B" team? I wonder how much more a client is willing to pay for local, convenient, quality service. Is it 50%, 100%, 200% etc.? Would you be willing to tell us the price difference between the bids? I'm guessing it was higher than 200%. I also note that a number of US firms have been getting work from the Middle East. If they are fair game for you then why isn't the US fair game for Crystal? One thing I have noticed, specially in the 3D Animation business; the Arabs have a fascination with White Skin!!! Not being racist, just an observation. Anuj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawla Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 (edited) I know there are a few of the large viz firms here in the US "Partnering" (outsourcing) with other firms in foreign countries for the modeling and grunt work, then sending it back to the US for "finishing/polishing", then outsource again for the rendering of the animation, then back for final editing/polishing. Dirty little secrets. True, one of those has hired people from my firm here in New Delhi. But the guys are fed up because there is no challenge or pride left in their work. They are doing the grunt stuff for the money. One of them complained that in a few months time he would have forgotten how to texture and light up a scene!! Anuj Edited May 12, 2009 by rawla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawla Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 (edited) Not all firms are going internal. The firm I last worked for basically all but dismantled the internal Viz group with the most current lay offs and they are looking at external options. There are still people with the firm that will do some of the work internally but the attitude is that internally those people can not produce the quality of work that the firm desires. There are also a few groups that will try and keep things internal but internal Viz for my old firm has become something of the past. My experience exactly. Anuj Edited May 12, 2009 by rawla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawla Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 Do you work for a big firm? A big firm like HOK or RMJM has the required number of projects and resources to have an inhouse team. Leave the top rung out, they were never really outsourcing anyway. Even if they did it was to one or two firms who had been working for them for years and were "LOCAL" go to guys. For a firm of that size it makes sense to have your own 3D team. Anuj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pechara Posted May 12, 2009 Author Share Posted May 12, 2009 Anuj, This will probably get me into hot water but I agree with you. Over the past 10 years I can think of only 2 or 3 instances were I had a very negative experience in my business and its allways been with Arabian clients. I have never done any work in Middle east, but the American based Arabians I have worked for have extremely high expectations, have very little patience, and do not want to pay for anything. This is afcourse not true for all, but in general that is the standard that can be expected. After my last experince, I simply dont reply to any project requests from middle eastern cleints unless I allready know them and have a relationship. The projects I do here in USA I get paid 100% upfront as often they do not want to pay the last installment becouse they are "not happy" witht he work. (Even thought they loved it and never said anything) . Again, I dont want anyone to think that this is based in any sort of racist idiology. Its simply my observation in business deadlings of the past 10 years. I find the Arabian cultures very friendly, warm and inviding peple. I just dont do business with them unless they can show some respect. On your other note, I have had many Middle east companies request proposals from me, but not one has ever hired us. A friend told me that working with American companies has certain status simbol in Middle east. Im afraind they are just not willing to pay the america wages and they go ahead and hire the slave labor in Asia or Middle east. Anyway, I wonder if anyone else has had similar experiences. Again, please hold your judgement of me as Im the least racist person on the planet if you knew me personaly. I dont want people to think that Im. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pechara Posted May 12, 2009 Author Share Posted May 12, 2009 A big firm like HOK or RMJM has the required number of projects and resources to have an inhouse team. Leave the top rung out, they were never really outsourcing anyway. Even if they did it was to one or two firms who had been working for them for years and were "LOCAL" go to guys. For a firm of that size it makes sense to have your own 3D team. Anuj Yes and no. I did some work for Gensler few months ago and one of the guys at the Gensler offcie in SF told me that their in-house team was swamped and that they were looking for outside help from time to time. I worked for them becouse their cleint requested that they work with me and not their typical supplier. I think lots of that is project by project and manager by manager basis. I imagne now they ar enot overloaded Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawla Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 Thanks Robert! I really appreciate the advice! :):). That was fun!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pechara Posted May 12, 2009 Author Share Posted May 12, 2009 Not all firms are going internal. The firm I last worked for basically all but dismantled the internal Viz group with the most current lay offs and they are looking at external options. There are still people with the firm that will do some of the work internally but the attitude is that internally those people can not produce the quality of work that the firm desires. There are also a few groups that will try and keep things internal but internal Viz for my old firm has become something of the past. QUOTE] My experience exactly. Anuj I'm finding this to also be true. A few of my clients tell me that its just cheaper to hire a guy like me as needed then to keep me on staff. Its true that most do 3D in-house. But when it comes to any descent quality level, it takes a more specialized person. So you can them a salary, benefits, insurance, vacation time, etc or just call guys like us when needed. IT makes sense in busy times when you can keep such a guy running at 100% all the time, it makes no sence now in the current market. Most of my cleints have cut their staff by 30-50%. You can bet that the specialised 3D guy was in that pile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 A big firm like HOK or RMJM has the required number of projects and resources to have an inhouse team. Not true. I know HOK has and will use Crystal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rawla Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 Not true. I know HOK has and will use Crystal. For Animations surely not for Stills. No inhouse team has the resources in terms of equipment to render animations. Anuj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
innerdream Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 For Animations surely not for Stills. No inhouse team has the resources in terms of equipment to render animations. Anuj I worked at Gensler and I know what they can do and do and yes they have done animations as well as stills. I'm sure they're not alone among the big firms. The out sourcing usually is a time and cost driven entity in my experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 No inhouse team has the resources in terms of equipment to render animations. Think about a few hundred PC sitting idle most nights... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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