Mac or PC for architectural work.

[Logan.W]

Hello,

 

I would like to buy a PC or Mac which will suite my architectural needs.

I'll be using 3DS Max, Adobe Photoshop and Auto CAD.

Budget is around $3000.

 

If you had that much, what system would you pick and why?

I am quite new to hardware, especially with Macs.

 

Regards,

[BillyElNino]

Hmmm, You can't run 3DS Max or AutoCAD on a MAC straight up so your choice may have been made for you. You can split the MAC to run it as a PC but it sounds like you might be better off going down the PC route. I think budget wise if that includes software you'll be stumped too.

[Logan.W]

Hmm... You're right. I was totally unaware of the software side.

I have been using Sketchup, but people have told me that I should get 3DS Max because Vray and 3DS Max have better results. But I totally forgot that Mac doesn't support it yet.

 

So it's down the PC route then.

I have a copy of Vista lying around here. But I am using XP on my current computer with a not-so-good configuration. Thus I need to upgrade after a long time!

Problem is, I don't really understand what makes a good configuration for a PC which will be built to handle 3DS Max, Adobe Photoshop with maybe a video editing software for some animations and of course Auto CAD. I really hate lag and want to get rid off lagging problems when I work on big projects with rendering enabled, or textures for that matter. So I should be able to navigate seamlessly with textures on in realtime. I think everyone will agree that they hate that lag, and have to disable every other option to get the speed. There is something about speed we all can't understand! Love the adrenaline. hehe

 

So, since we're down the PC route. What specifications will you go for a PC for architectural/graphics based work. Could someone please post PC specs to help me out? I have about a day to get this sorted out.

 

I'll be getting AutoCAD for free since It'll be based on student terms from the Institution. I will have to buy 3DS Max and I might consider getting an upgrade liscence to adobe cs4. Heard good things.

Shall I put vista x64 or windows 7 on the PC? I don't have windows 7 but you can download it off the net right? It's still in beta.

 

Edit: I've heard good stuff about Virtualization with Mac and windows programs. Anybody tried it out with the rendering of images in Mac using one of the virtualization programs? What's the difference in terms of speed, is it major?

 

Thank you in advance

 

Regards,

Edited June 8, 2009 by Logan.W

[BillyElNino]

My colleague STRAT runs XP64 on his Oct Mac but he is unfortunately away on holiday to rave about the + and - of such a sytem. We have weaned ourselves off AutoCAD almost completely in the office as we only need to view them or import them rather than model or draw in them, the rest of us use our Macs as Macs and we don't have a Max problem as we don't use it! (Cinema 4D for us all the way!) SketchUp is also our primary modeller...

 

Macs are generally more stable, more powerful in standard spec comparisons but are A LOT more money, do not have full compatibility and don't run MAX. You'll find 1000 times more MAX stuff out there learning wise for a PC and a lot more support too from Forums like this BUT:

 

Macs are cool.

 

Form over Function.

 

Don't underestimate the benefit of looking good!

[Logan.W]

I use AutoCAD for 2D work, everything else into Sketchup for 3D. I havn't quite been able to use Vray with Sketchup for desired effects. And the resource repository is huge for 3DS Max. Even VRAY Materials.

 

How do you compare Max with C4D regarding your work with clients? Do you run into problems of not doing one thing in C4D which Max can do?

What about materials for rendering? Premade resources, etc?

I have never used C4D so not sure. But all people who use Mac use C4D and have never complained about Max. I do see the "newbies" complaining that there should be a 3DS Max version for Mac.

 

Alright, so can we get hardware specs now? I need to start making a plan and what to choose.

 

PC and Mac... so whose up first? Sorry for being hasty. Don't have much time to pick a choice.

 

Talking about looking good... whose a PUA over here? haha!

[Archiform 3D]

I just posted in another thread a link to here: http://www.3dfluff.com/mash/cinebench/top.php

 

You will see the Mac is way up there on the speed side, in fact second from the top. The Mac prices are very good too in the high end hardware.

 

Yes, you can get Mac hardware to run Windows - a lot of people do now. You can get Vray to run on C4D too.

 

Do you think you will need your Mac side? How about things like Final Cut Pro? If you need that they the choice is easy - Mac. If you dont need it then just compare specs and price.

 

Steve

[BOXXLABS]

 

Macs are generally more stable, more powerful in standard spec ...

 

I respect your decision to work on a Mac - and I agree that Macs are great for some workflows - but I have to strongly challenge your assertion that MACs are either more stable or more powerful than other computers.

 

This is simply untrue.

 

I've seen no statistics - and read no statements from Apple stating this to be the case. And certainly the testing and research we've done would seem to counter that assumption.

 

You may have personally had a bad experience working in Windows on. This is unfortunately the case sometimes.

 

Most people i speak with about this (and that's ALOT) have generally very good things to say about their modern Windows workstation as long as it's been designed & assembled carefully by someone who knows what they are doing - and uses top-quality components with up to date drivers and software.

 

I think cases can be made for using one computing platform or the other, but let's stick to the facts please.

 

 

Adam

BOXXlabs

Edited June 8, 2009 by BOXXLABS

[BillyElNino]

I respect your decision to work on a Mac - and I agree that Macs are great for some workflows - but I have to strongly challenge your assertion that MACs are either more stable or more powerful than other computers.

 

This is simply untrue.

 

I've seen no statistics - and read no statements from Apple stating this to be the case. And certainly the testing and research we've done would seem to counter that assumption.

 

You may have personally had a bad experience working in Windows on. This is unfortunately the case sometimes.

 

Most people i speak with about this (and that's ALOT) have generally very good things to say about their modern Windows workstation as long as it's been designed & assembled carefully by someone who knows what they are doing - and uses top-quality components with up to date drivers and software.

 

I think cases can be made for using one computing platform or the other, but let's stick to the facts please.

 

Reading back what I've written I'd have to say what I have written is probably a massive generalization with regards to stability and power!

 

It's based on anecdotal personal experience of the software and computers I have used in both camps rather than critical observation and I am more than willing to accept this may be a perception rather than a reality.

 

(they still look better though)

 

 

Edit: And actually, while on the subject, VRay for C4D works considerably better on a PC than it does on a MAC at the moment, which kind of counters my previous post too...!

Edited June 8, 2009 by BillyElNino

[Frosty]

I just faced this decision and bought an Octo-Mac. Its dual boot with Vista and Mac and therefore I didn't sacrifice anything. I got a dual quad 2.29 with 12G ram for $3300. I think that's pretty hard to beat from any vendor and now I can run Final Cut when I want to.

[Tommy L]

Hello,

 

I would like to buy a PC or Mac which will suite my architectural needs.

I'll be using 3DS Max, Adobe Photoshop and Auto CAD.

Budget is around $3000.

 

If you had that much, what system would you pick and why?

I am quite new to hardware, especially with Macs.

 

Regards,

 

Your software cost is about double your budget.

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

You might want to consider Rhino also, if you are considering C4d. It has been steadily growing in popularity in arch firms for the last couple of years, and is probably the most taught 3d software in arch design schools in the U.S. Though I am just guessing on that last part.

[Logan.W]

Wow, lots of replies, thank you very much for you input everyone. It's helped me.

 

As much as I want to get my hands dirty with a Mac, I won't be using Final Cut Pro. So that's about settled, won't be getting a Mac.

 

In a $3000 budget, I can configure a PC with a 23" screen which would probably be on same line with just a Mac in the $3000 budget. Right?

Over course, overclocking included.

 

If I am wrong about that, could someone help me with a cost-effect Mac configuration which would be on-about the same line as a PC.

 

It's been really long since I've looked at what type of hardware is out and what are the reviews about certain hardware.

 

I am sure that a lot of people here use PCs? That's what I've seen being discussed... well mostly.

 

Your software cost is about double your budget.

If I buy the software for my personal use, then yes, it's way more! lol

My dad has bought me AutoCAD 2005 which I currently use, nothing major.

 

I'll be going to an institution, local based, and learn to 3d designing. AutoCAD course is 6 months after which an 8 month course for 3ds MAX. They'll be providing me the software. Though, I am not allowed to use it for commercial purposes.

 

I have Adobe Photoshop CS3 and thinking of upgrading to CS4 sometime soon. Been using it for sometime, so am quite fluent in it.

 

However, the budget is not for the software. It's for the hardware only.

 

So, if you had $3000-3300, What PC/Mac system will you build designed for architectural performance?

 

PS: Thanks again for all your help guys, been really informative!

[shaneis]

I have Adobe Photoshop CS3 and thinking of upgrading to CS4 sometime soon. Been using it for sometime, so am quite fluent in it.

 

Save yourself the money - nothing great in CS4, especially if you're fluent with CS3.

 

Something you might want to consider when choosing your hardware is that by the time you complete your studies, there'll be a whole new load of hardware on the market. i7's will be much cheaper, as will the equivalent Xeon family. As you said, this is for student work, not a "time is money" professional workstation. To be honest, I'd recommend you get a good monitor (as you'll be staring at it a lot in the coming year and then with the remaining budget, buy the fastest machine you can. You can also opt for a "smaller" hard drive, say, around 320GB. If you fill it up in the coming year, you can always buy another...and they're cheap nowadays. A 512MB Graphics card will do just fine. With what you save on the HDD and GPU card, you should be able to go one notch higher with the CPU.

 

If you still have money left over then get a little netbook or even a 13" MacBook for online stuff, take your workstation off line and it'll stay clean and lean for the duration of your studies.

 

It might sound odd but buying an "all bells and whistles" workstation while learning is not a good idea. At least with a lesser spec'd machine you'll learn the importance (and skill) of efficient rendering rather than relying on brute force to crunch through poorly optimised renderings which, in turn, will make you a better renderer and more competitive in the workplace.

 

My 2c.

Edited June 9, 2009 by shaneis

[Logan.W]

Save yourself the money - nothing great in CS4, especially if you're fluent with CS3.

Hmm... I'll exactly do that then. I am not working in the industry which requires a lot of time saving improvements which CS4 brings.

 

Something you might want to consider when choosing your hardware is that by the time you complete your studies, there'll be a whole new load of hardware on the market. i7's will be much cheaper, as will the equivalent Xeon family. As you said, this is for student work, not a "time is money" professional workstation. To be honest, I'd recommend you get a good monitor (as you'll be staring at it a lot in the coming year and then with the remaining budget, buy the fastest machine you can. You can also opt for a "smaller" hard drive, say, around 320GB. If you fill it up in the coming year, you can always buy another...and they're cheap nowadays. A 512MB Graphics card will do just fine. With what you save on the HDD and GPU card, you should be able to go one notch higher with the CPU.

 

If you still have money left over then get a little netbook or even a 13" MacBook for online stuff, take your workstation off line and it'll stay clean and lean for the duration of your studies.

 

It might sound odd but buying an "all bells and whistles" workstation while learning is not a good idea. At least with a lesser spec'd machine you'll learn the importance (and skill) of efficient rendering rather than relying on brute force to crunch through poorly optimised renderings which, in turn, will make you a better renderer and more competitive in the workplace.

 

My 2c.

Your advice given is worth more than 2c's. Very valuable indeed.

However, I already have a laptop which I use for other work.

 

I currently work on "projects" with sketchup... big projects. Two reasons, I can get some $ for part-time work and build my portfolio at the same time.

I have been using sketchup when it was still called @tlast software's sketchup.

 

I get drawings from some friends which I convert to 3D for my own use. Gota keep myself tip-top and robust. It's all for fun. I am not doing Architecture for the money. I have a passion in designing. When am not studying, I start working on a "big project" to harness a knowledge base for myself with which I'll work in future.

 

You know, doing small drawings is fun and all, but when you work on a big project -- it gets real fun. How all the technicalities strike you, this obstacle, that obstacle. Planning, evaluating, designing. Really fun. Have you ever looked at a 2D drawings which you work from start to finish and look at the final 3D drawing, rendered? It's so awe-inspiring.

 

Macs are expensive. And I don't have that kind of money yet. Maybe I'll reconsider getting one in future when I build up on the $_$.

Right now, so I have decided to look for a configuration of a PC in a $3000-3300 range, with a good monitor. I could find a CPU and start picking out parts applicable to it, and follow my way to the end like that. But I do not know which makes or models are good for what. I've not been updating myself with hardware. So I really need someone who can throw me a good list of hardware in that price range, with quality parts of course. Should last me a good 3 year period.

 

Sorry for nagging everyone, but I just require this assistance for someone...

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

Save yourself the money - nothing great in CS4, especially if you're fluent with CS3.

 

Quoted for agreement. IMO CS4 has cost us more money than it is worth. It requires more horsepower, and therefor runs slower on our current machines, meaning that work is produced slower. Our standard machine is 64bit 3ghz dual core with 8 gigs of ram. Not sure on the standard video card specs.

 

Not a fan.

Edited June 9, 2009 by Crazy Homeless Guy

[Logan.W]

Quoted for agreement. IMO CS4 has cost us more money than it is worth. It requires more horsepower, and therefor runs slower on our current machines, meaning that work is produced slower. Our standard machine is 3ghz dual core with 8 gigs of ram. Not sure on the standard video card specs.

 

Not a fan.

Ouch. That's bad news. Looks I'll be sticking with CS3 for a good year or so.

My "main" workstation has 1GB Ram with a 512mb GFX card. And on large files, I get a constant lag when I work on A4 or bigger sized projects. But if you're getting slowdowns on your current machines. Then CS4 is a definite no no.

[Logan.W]

MoBo: ASUS P6T Deluxe V2 X58

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131365

$290

 

CPU: Intel Core i7 920

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115202

$280

 

CPU Cooler: Zalman CNPS9900LED 120mm 2 Call CPU Cooler

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835118046&Tpk=ZALMAN%2

$80

 

RAM: Corsair DDR3-1600 Dominator series 6GB (3 x 2GB)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145224

$170

 

 

PSU: FSP Everest 1010 1000W

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817104041

$215

 

HDD: WD VelociRaptor 150GB 10000RPM (Primary)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136296

$180

 

HDD2: Western Digital Caviar Black 1TB 7200RPM (Secondary)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136284

$95

 

GFX Card: I need some help in this one...

Sapphire Radeon HD 4870 1GB

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102801

$180

 

Current total: $1490

Edited June 10, 2009 by Logan.W

[BOXXLABS]

Ouch. That's bad news. Looks I'll be sticking with CS3 for a good year or so.

My "main" workstation has 1GB Ram with a 512mb GFX card. And on large files, I get a constant lag when I work on A4 or bigger sized projects. But if you're getting slowdowns on your current machines. Then CS4 is a definite no no.

 

I've remarkably few complaints about CS4 (Photoshop, PPro, AE) performance issues when people run modern systems under Vista64 with at least 6GB of RAM.

 

This said, it's quite possible that an artist may not benefit much from the new features in CS4 (vs. CS3) depending on what which apps you use and how you use them...

 

Adam

BOXXlabs

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

I've remarkably few complaints about CS4 (Photoshop, PPro, AE) performance issues when people run modern systems under Vista64 with at least 6GB of RAM.

 

This said, it's quite possible that an artist may not benefit much from the new features in CS4 (vs. CS3) depending on what which apps you use and how you use them...

 

Adam

BOXXlabs

 

I run into the most problems when I have 6 or 7 documents open that are around 200 to 400 megs in size, with each document having up to 50 layers.

 

Sounds a bit excessive, but CS3 did not struggle with this. CS4's memory management chokes and drags when this is thrown at it. I have tried several tweaks to the way it uses memory, but still can't seem to equal that of CS3.

 

Also, I am pretty sure it has a memory leak, judging by the way it slows down the longer I am using it. Though I haven't had the time to check this thoroughly.

[BOXXLABS]

I run into the most problems when I have 6 or 7 documents open that are around 200 to 400 megs in size, with each document having up to 50 layers.

 

Sounds a bit excessive, but CS3 did not struggle with this. CS4's memory management chokes and drags when this is thrown at it. I have tried several tweaks to the way it uses memory, but still can't seem to equal that of CS3.

 

Also, I am pretty sure it has a memory leak, judging by the way it slows down the longer I am using it. Though I haven't had the time to check this thoroughly.

 

What is your current hardware & OS?

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

What is your current hardware & OS?

 

Dell T5400, Dual 3ghz Quad Core, Win64 XP Pro, 8gb RAM, Quadro FX 1700 (Probably 512mb.)

 

My video card needs to be upgraded, which should help my Photoshop performance, ...but still.

[BOXXLABS]

....Win64 XP Pro...

 

You are running CS4 on an unsupported operating system. You will have a better chance of getting get the proper performance out of CS4 if you stick to one of the supported OS's.

 

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

You are running CS4 on an unsupported operating system. You will have a better chance of getting get the proper performance out of CS4 if you stick to one of the supported OS's.

 

 

Really? Adobe chose not to support XP64? This seams like a poor decision on their part.

 

.....how many major corporations are running Vista64 over XP64? I am guessing it will be at least a year, maybe more before we start transitioning form Win64 to Windows7 64, skipping Vista altogether. I would venture to guess that any corporation doing power computing feels the same way.

[BOXXLABS]

Really? Adobe chose not to support XP64? This seams like a poor decision on their part.

 

.....how many major corporations are running Vista64 over XP64? I am guessing it will be at least a year, maybe more before we start transitioning form Win64 to Windows7 64, skipping Vista altogether. I would venture to guess that any corporation doing power computing feels the same way.

 

I would say that this is more of a concern in large corporations -especially those where the IT group is not especially "enlightened" about the special needs of the artists they are supporting and/or are hampered by other bureaucratic constraints.

 

More flexible studios and companies are now typically enjoying the benefits of Windows computing under Vista64 which, by the way, we now recommend to virtually all of our customers running current software applications on modern hardware.

 

Many large companies are also able to incorporate "best practices" for maintaining workstations for digital artists - and have upgraded these systems to the latest OSs and software apps...

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

I would say that this is more of a concern in large corporations -especially those where the IT group is not especially "enlightened" about the special needs of the artists they are supporting and/or are hampered by other bureaucratic constraints.

 

If IT told me they were switching my machine to a Vista machine I would probably start a fight. I used Vista at home for about a year before calling it quits, and going back to XP. Vista may start to introduce new ways of memory management, and more advanced computing, but I would guess a head to head benchmark test would prove an identical XP machine to run faster than a Vista machine.

 

Now, ....my home laptop, which I was using Vista on, is not the most powerful system. But it is one that was sold as Vista ready, and the one I was using when I formed most of my opinions about Vista. It only has a 2ghz dual core with 2 gigs of ram and a GeForce 8600 256mb card.

 

Software bloat at both the OS level and Software level seems to have become a greater issue in the past two years than it was previously.

 

I am now running 7 on my home desktop, and so far it feels a lot better than Vista in terms of lag and load on the system. I have yet to do any production on that machine since switching it to 7, but so far it feels decent.

Edited June 10, 2009 by Crazy Homeless Guy