Stealing work- interesting turn around

[BVI]

Eh, Steve, bad communication from me? Now, you want me to put all communication here I've had with BB? It will took so much space, that Jeff should have to migrate cgarcitect.com to a much larger server than he is on now. Also, it's not true you've had to correct my errors. You had to correct client's changing, that have nothing with me. I did exactly what they want at the moment you get the models from me. Period. Anything after that is your matter.

As for the bill - you really want to clear your face in public? Don't. I've aksing PO from you from the very beginnig, at least 6 times. But I've never get it. Keep the track of the messages in the messenger, what else should I tell?

Anyway, I'll send you that Invoice.

 

Hey DD,

 

Now that I know what a PO is - why don't you send the invoice as requested- why wait for the purchase order, if Steve refuses to send it. Surely you have a figure in mind for the 3D that you did. I think you are also at fault for not clarifying how much you would be paid for the project before starting it. Send the invoice and then discuss it afterwards? It seems silly to argue about this in a public forum.

 

Thanks my two cents.

 

Nic

[Jonathan Sanchez]

however, it is acceptable business practice, in this country, to not pay consultants until the client has paid the prime.

 

That depends on the agreement... I have an agreement with my clients that I get paid upon delivery of finals, I don't care if he's been paid or not... period!.. no money, no finals.

 

anybody who does otherwise is a jerk in my opinion.

[bev.lynn]

I don't know about this case, but in my line of work the PO is what authorizes the work in the first place. If you have not been issued a PO, you have nothing to Invoice against. So, if there is no PO, you have nothing to reference on the Invoice.

 

Personally, I always pay my contractors when work is delivered. If the client stiffs me, my contractor is not at fault, he delivered as promised so I pay him and take the client to task.

[leoA4D]

That depends on the agreement...

 

Absolutely. Clients also write agreements that pay small consultants or vendors immediately and let larger firms wait. Companies and firms cannot afford and are not paid to be a bank or philanthropy. If the work is for an architect, with this being one of several active projects, and not a small budget project there could be three to eight consulting firms involved accounting for upwards to 35%-50% of the project's design team total fee. Most architects do not enjoy healthy profit margins, lots of cash and do not want to burn their fee in bank charges to borrow to pay all the consultants on all the projects in the office. It is an arrangement that may be distasteful but works and, your opinion aside, it has been in practice in this country for a very long time.

 

Keep in mind, I did not say I approve of or am defending this practice. BTW, avoid clients that do government work.

[Slinger]

I don't know about this case, but in my line of work the PO is what authorizes the work in the first place. If you have not been issued a PO, you have nothing to Invoice against. So, if there is no PO, you have nothing to reference on the Invoice.

 

Personally, I always pay my contractors when work is delivered. If the client stiffs me, my contractor is not at fault, he delivered as promised so I pay him and take the client to task.

Absolutely Beverly.

[Jonathan Sanchez]

Absolutely. Clients also write agreements that pay small consultants or vendors immediately and let larger firms wait. Companies and firms cannot afford and are not paid to be a bank or philanthropy. If the work is for an architect, with this being one of several active projects, and not a small budget project there could be three to eight consulting firms involved accounting for upwards to 35%-50% of the project's design team total fee. Most architects do not enjoy healthy profit margins, lots of cash and do not want to burn their fee in bank charges to borrow to pay all the consultants on all the projects in the office. It is an arrangement that may be distasteful but works and, your opinion aside, it has been in practice in this country for a very long time.

 

Keep in mind, I did not say I approve of or am defending this practice. BTW, avoid clients that do government work.

 

I guess you are right about this for bigger scale jobs.... I've not worked in projects big enough yet that the client can't payme there and then. I guess the best practice is just to be clear about when and how one's gonna get paid in the agreement. It would be very hard for me to accept payment depending on wether my client's client pays or not. As a matter of fact, in the case when my clients have come up to me and said that my payment depends on their getting paid, I've just requested to work directly with the one who will be paying, instead of using my client as a middleman.

[archigem]

I don't know about this case, but in my line of work the PO is what authorizes the work in the first place. If you have not been issued a PO, you have nothing to Invoice against. So, if there is no PO, you have nothing to reference on the Invoice.

 

Personally, I always pay my contractors when work is delivered. If the client stiffs me, my contractor is not at fault, he delivered as promised so I pay him and take the client to task.

 

Quite right.....! and somehow I feels that Mr. steve from archiform are a little biased towards the freelancers.... specially from India. I agree that the bad practice are always here and there.. but there are also many talented guys out there...! (one of them won the CGarena award for beautiful theme.... the name was Prashant Sayal.) So you just can not justify for what you say.

You know we have a saying in India....... when a tree becomes big and full of fruits..... it ducks..! (when a great man with good qualities becomes successful, he becomes more polite). but sorry to say steve, we didn't find this quality in you.

 

About the payments, I m totally agree with Beverly. if we makes a great profit from the clients.......... we never pay more money to the freelancer.... so why should he/she suffer in case our client is not paying the money. If the client is bad.... why should we!

Edited October 29, 2010 by archigem

[johnsayers23]

We should also not sub-contractour work to others, at least not from the same city or region.

 

Someone came in to our architecture office few weeks ago showing some published imagery and one of the director had query about who actually did the image? The short answer was 'it was a joint-ventured work'. The director was fairly un-impressed and I am sure that would have trashed both companies' reputation to some extend.

[SteveBell]

We should also not sub-contractour work to others, at least not from the same city or region.

 

Someone came in to our architecture office few weeks ago showing some published imagery and one of the director had query about who actually did the image? The short answer was 'it was a joint-ventured work'. The director was fairly un-impressed and I am sure that would have trashed both companies' reputation to some extend.

 

Unfortunately, especially in Australia and the USA, most 3D companies outsource the lot and cant actually do the work themselves. It sucks, the quality is inconsistent and people are starting to figure it out. Nobody wants a "middle man". It happens with web work too and anything that can be done electronically. Anyone that says they "collaborate" are just talking crap - they are middle men.

 

I have a different company come to me every week either wanting to do our work or vice versa. I just wont even entertain it anymore. People come for real work and my style. It doesn't suit everyone but it's mine and I can back up my work 100%. Recently I even had one prospective client ask which company in Asia that I sent my work to as if it was expected that I was like everyone else. She didn't believe that her job would actually come off my own desk....

 

Oh, on the previous comment about me discriminating towards Indian companies, that is wrong. I have merely pointed out that almost all of the people/companies that have stolen my work to show as their own are from India. I didn't make that happen - that is just how it came about.

[AJLynn]

I don't see why a client should care if you're using subcontractors. Clients pay you for deliverables, you give them deliverables, that's why they're called deliverables. It's not like they're doing all their work themselves.

[SteveBell]

I don't see why a client should care if you're using subcontractors. Clients pay you for deliverables, you give them deliverables, that's why they're called deliverables. It's not like they're doing all their work themselves.

 

But thats the thing, the deliverables are not always consistent, especially in our field. This is a creative process and clients get uptight with the whole field when they are going through 2 sets of hands to try to achieve the most simple things. We have had so many people try that with us and it rarely works out. And then clients get frustrated when they just want to talk to or see the person working on the job and make a change visually and find out that they cant. I lost a job once because the "middle-man" could not interpret the most simple instructions. The client found out it was us and called to express how disappointed he was that with my experience I could not follow his ideas - I had to let him know that I never got his ideas and had strict instructions to never communicate with him.

 

Today my biggest selling point is that we really do the work. They can change it on the fly, see it happening and get real service. No middle-man service can do that.

[AJLynn]

Well, of course, it's on you to make sure you're only getting top work from your subs (that's why they're your subs, not your client's) and that your client understands you're the point of contact (and you handle that arrangement well). Again, this is something that shouldn't be difficult for architects to cope with - at a well run architecture firm a client doesn't just call junior staff at their desks and give them instructions! But I guess there's always been a bit of a gap there.

[johnsayers23]

Thank AJ and Steve..

 

Need to clarify my point that it wasn't simply the issue of sub-contracting; rather you(as the principal company initiallyengaged to do the work) taken the risk of letting your sub-contracters to know your contacts and market themselves directly to the company. i.e stab you from the back!

 

just my $0.02

[SteveBell]

Thank AJ and Steve..

 

Need to clarify my point that it wasn't simply the issue of sub-contracting; rather you(as the principal company initiallyengaged to do the work) taken the risk of letting your sub-contracters to know your contacts and market themselves directly to the company. i.e stab you from the back!

 

 

Fortunately that hasn't happened to me, but I only send out my overburden of simple tasks, like ArchiCAD modeling. I can see it being an issue for those that send the job out completely and why middlemen dont want us to ever communicate with the client. But I have never gone behind anyone's back and dont have that in me, so I cant help but resent being left out of the loop and unable to communicate to the client. I understand that both clients and freelancers may often seek each other out to try and get a better deal and have heard about it happening. I know it happens with staff all the time and have had databases being stolen when mine leave. While that hurts I do also see it as my responsibility to ensure that I now out compete the staff member that look off and approached my clients and if I lose a client then it's my fault for not doing an even better job.

 

I try really hard to see this from the perspective of the person who works as a middleman but must admit that right or wrong I have always had a personal problem with it and hate the vagueness of the whole relationship. I had a web guy take on a job from me and he struggled with it for so long and then I found out he was merely outsourcing it - and here I was trying to talk code to him and all he knew was enough bullshit to get him past a conversation. I then fired him and went to another person and after a month I discovered the same thing. I had lost 2 down payments and had nothing, so I pulled out some books and did it myself. It is apparent that the reason web design is now a sour industry is because people like this messed it up and now I see it has happened with 3D too. People make a living out of getting in the middle and clients are tired of it, while finding it difficult to locate a real person with a real studio who can do their job.

 

I know, my 2 cents seems to drag out a little, but it's a subject that I am becoming passionate about.

[dondon]

Well, as many of you asked, here's the epilogue of the payment story...

 

At the end, Steve did pay, but only half of my work.

For the other half, there was an explanation that the budget is tight

and must be patient. That was answer 3 months ago and then radio silence,

despite my S.O.S. signals. And that's it.

[ihabkal]

People make a living out of getting in the middle and clients are tired of it, while finding it difficult to locate a real person with a real studio who can do their job.

 

Clients don't know their own good. I contact large players in the field to get negative responses and bored (or boring) secretaries that know nothing, and then I get to do their renderigns anyway through middle men for a fraction of the fees while the middle man makes more than me.