24" monitor IPS or PVA panel NON wide gamut

[Derek Forreal]

over the past few weeks i've been looking into upgrading my monitor to a 24" model. i thought the process would be pretty straight forward but of course, i was very wrong!

 

i would most certainly like either a PVA or IPS panel but one thing that is bothering me is the wide colour gamut of every monitor of this type. i have no need for the extended gamut and would like to avoid having to deal with different colour spaces as much as possible.

 

also, from what i gather, unless i'm doing pro print work (which i'm not), the extended colour space is superfluous. is this a fair assessment? for example, many have recommended the Dell 2408WFP (or the replacement U2410), but from my reading i gather that the colours it displays are way over the top in non colour managed apps. so what if i render some images and then want to display them on the web or send them to estate agents as marketing material? or if i want to upload them to the web? or if i want to print them on my (pretty basic) printer?

 

so really, what i am looking for is a 24" monitor with a non TN panel but with sRGB colour, or at least an accurate sRBG mode. unless of course windows 7 has better colour management than XP (which i still use). of course i would prefer to have more colours, but not if i'm going to have to 'downgrade' to sRGB for end use.

 

edit: i have read a few threads on this forum but none were very conclusive so i decided to start my own with my own specific questions.

Edited November 17, 2009 by derekforreal
edited to add

[AJLynn]

You can never have too much color gamut. If there's more than you need to display sRGB images, it doesn't cause a problem. What you want to do is get a good display, and calibrate it using a calibration device like an Eye One Display or Spyder 3.

 

The accurate sRGB color will come from setting up Photoshop in sRGB mode on a properly calibrated monitor. Your images will not look the same on other people's monitors, unless theirs are also calibrated, but they'll print correctly.

[Jeff Mottle]

Hi Derek,

 

High gamut displays can certainly add a lot more complications to your workflow if you never output for print and only develop for web and/or if you do not work in a color managed workflow.

 

The largest issue is that 3ds max's frame buffer is not color managed so all of the color decisions you make will be based on a much larger gamut of the display. This is not necessarily a bad thing if your photoshop it set up properly. The key with all color management is ensuring you assign the proper meaning (profile) to your RGB data.

So you could assign the AdobeRGB profile to your imagery in Photoshop to ensure as close a match in Photoshop as you saw in the max frame buffer. This is because wide gamut displays are very close to the Adobe RGB color space, not always though. If you want to ensure a near exact match if the above does not work, you can do a little trick I figured out. When you open the image in PS assign your display profile and immediately convert to your working space. The trick here is that this only works on images you created with your profiled/calibrated display and only if the profile was recently created. Normally you would NEVER assign a display profile to anything.

 

The other draw back to wide gamut displays are viewing images in browsers or other non-color managed apps. Generally these images tend to appear much more saturated. You also usually have to ensure you convert your images to the sRGB color space when sending them to other people or publishing them to the web.

 

The chapter I wrote for 3DATS recent book explains a lot more about this.

 

Some higher end displays (NEC, Eizo etc) have sRGB modes built into the display that can be switched automatically from the panel.

 

As far as printing on "low end printers" Most all decent inkjet printers now will be much closer to Adobe RGB than sRGB, so if you are printing yourself, you'll find it much easier to match color between the two with a wide gamut display.

 

Honestly, given most new displays are wide gamut, you'd probably be better off just learning how to adjust your workflow, than to get a display that uses outdated technology.

 

Windows 7 has "better" color management than XP, but if you care about color, then you still need to get a proper calibration and profiling device.

[Jeff Mottle]

You can never have too much color gamut. If there's more than you need to display sRGB images, it doesn't cause a problem. What you want to do is get a good display, and calibrate it using a calibration device like an Eye One Display or Spyder 3.

 

The accurate sRGB color will come from setting up Photoshop in sRGB mode on a properly calibrated monitor. Your images will not look the same on other people's monitors, unless theirs are also calibrated, but they'll print correctly.

 

This is not entirely true, if you made color decisions on a wide gamut display in a non color managed app (ie 3ds max frame buffer), then you can't just covert the image to sRGB in Photoshop and not see some affect in color shift. You need to need to follow the workflow I suggested above. Printing will not be as accurate unless you do this as well. As I mentioned above wide gamut displays are almost always going to produce a better match to an inkjet than a display that is closer to the sRGB color space.

[Derek Forreal]

High gamut displays can certainly add a lot more complications to your workflow if you never output for print and only develop for web and/or if you do not work in a color managed workflow.

 

The largest issue is that 3ds max's frame buffer is not color managed so all of the color decisions you make will be based on a much larger gamut of the display. This is not necessarily a bad thing if your photoshop it set up properly.

 

this is exactly what i am worried about and clearly i need to do more research, as i don't even know what a colour managed workflow is. despite this, my workflow so far has served me well. i work with modo (which i assume lacks colour management as does 3dsMax). my workflow is linear and the few other apps i use AFAIK are strippped of any colour profiles as this way, what i see in one app i see everywhere else.

 

even if i did go to the lengths of calibrating and assigning profiles, i think it would be wasted time as i don't have contact with other pros, but work solely with end users which are either my business (i visualise small developments which i then build), estate agents (marketing material for projects i build) and visualisation of design and build projects i do occasionally for 3rd parties. whatever i do, my colours have rarely been different to what i expect so changing this very much violates the not insignificant rule "if it aint broke don't fix it".

 

because of this i think the best thing for me to do is to go in person to have a look at some monitors and decide with my own eyes which one to get. all i want is a larger screen with sharp imagery, decent colours and brightness that can be turned right down whilst maintaining good contrast. maybe i'm missing the whole 'accurate colours' debate but is it really that important if all i'm doing is rendering and sometimes printing some stills?

 

in any case it looks like i have no choice in the matter as a good monitor of this size must come with the wide gamut, so i've come up with a shortlist (unless anyone has other suggestions). please let me know if i should steer clear of any of these:

 

Hewlett Packard LP2475W (less money than NEC/Eizo, but have read that its hard to get a good sRGB mode from this one and panel quality is a bit hit and miss - some great some very bad)

 

Eizo Flexscan S2432w OR

 

NEC LCD2490WUXi

 

(both of which cost a more but are said to have better sRGB and come with a host of features that i will never need!)

 

does anyone use one of these and if so what do they think?

 

edit: i almost forgot! thank you Jeff for your detailed explanation. even though it wasn't exactly what i wanted to hear it has helped enormously.

Edited November 18, 2009 by derekforreal
forgot to thank Jeff!

[AJLynn]

You're right, but I should say, never make important color decisions based on what you see in the Max frame buffer. Given the choice between a consumer grade display (most of these don't even properly display 8 bits per channel, they use 6 bits and a dithering kludge) and an IPS or SPVA panel, using the better panel and relying on a color managed app like Photoshop is the way to go. Max has so many clever ways of messing up your output (e.g., the amount of frustration it caused me until I had the gamma issues figured out) I don't trust anything until I see it in Photoshop or printed.

[Derek Forreal]

The largest issue is that 3ds max's frame buffer is not color managed so all of the color decisions you make will be based on a much larger gamut of the display

 

what does that mean exactly? if i create my renders in the larger space, what happens when i view, say, on the web? are the colours less saturated only or they totally different? and does assiging a profile and converting to sRGB in photoshop effectively 'translate' my wide gamut colours into sRGB colours so that there is as little difference as possible when viewing on a standard display?

[Derek Forreal]

NEC LCD2490WUXi

i can't believe i missed this but the NEC is a standard gamut monitor. @ about £650, it's a lot more than i initially budgeted, but i think this is the one i'll be going for. any users here?

[Jeff Mottle]

what does that mean exactly? if i create my renders in the larger space, what happens when i view, say, on the web? are the colours less saturated only or they totally different? and does assiging a profile and converting to sRGB in photoshop effectively 'translate' my wide gamut colours into sRGB colours so that there is as little difference as possible when viewing on a standard display?

 

I'm away right now, but when I get back I will create some graphics to illustrate how this works. It's easier to understand with graphics.

[Derek Forreal]

I'm away right now, but when I get back I will create some graphics to illustrate how this works. It's easier to understand with graphics.

that would be great as i'm beginning to think that i shouldn't be limiting my options and so should learn to work with wider gamuts and enjoy the superior colours.

 

thanks for taking the time to help me with this.

[jackb602]

I've been following this thread with interest, since I'm hoping to upgrade to a better monitor soon. I just came across a review for a monitor that might give you exactly what you want. The NEC EA231WMi seems to offer great color accuracy, a standard color gamut, and a very good price. The link above leads to an in depth review of the monitor. Hope this helps.

 

Jack