ihabkal Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Dear Lebanese colleagues, Could you please stop under cutting each other? I am sick and tired of hearing from clients that "a guy does it for $200" and they give me the name of the person doing it. And I can't believe how you sleep at night doing $200 renderings for a building that has a 10+ million dollar value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murtazasimari Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 You are absolutely rite...In kuwait also i am facing the same problem..but here we have indians,labanese,syrian...etc. to do this thing...i believe in 3 things. 1 work for free 2 work for full price 3 but never for cheap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorsten hartmann Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Hi we have all the same problem. The most Low-cost Guys work with cracks of 3d-software and have old Hardware. The Result is not so good, but for the most clients it is enough. A Good Client, as SOM from London, give only a real Company the Jobs and not a cracker. mfg hot chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAllusionisst Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Kind of funny for some of us to hear people from other countries complaining about this. Not laughing at you, but it is a problem many of us have been dealing with for years. I think that the industry needs an organization that looks out for archvis artist such as the AIA looks out for American architects. Lobbying and creating standards, of course I have problems with the AIA, and you are not forced to belong or abide by their standards, but what would be good is to publish a fee structure from the previous year, like they or government agencies do. We belong to the ASAI, but I haven't seen much that is proactive or aimed at organizing industry standards, and I fully understand as it is a huge undertaking, but the industry needs something more than just an organization that puts together a book of images selected from member submissions each year. IMHO In addition it probably should be International in nature with perhaps country chapters or something. Jeff, could add it to the yearly survey and basically break down project types, location and the fee range charged by studios/firms. Probably throwing out the high and low 10% or something to rein in people providing undercut or overpirced data, Then you could show clients the range for their project type and if you are in the middle they would know you weren't gouging, or if you were higher, you could show how you provide superior service and there is a price for it, and of course if you were on the bottom end you could say you provide an economical solution. But if they said we have someone willing to do it for $200 and the data shows the low end at 10x that amount you can point out there is something wrong with that estimate and that they should proceed with caution if they choose to go that route and that they know how to get a hold of you when they need to be saved or need work that meets the "Standards of the Industry". I just think having a price range that is the norm is something the industry is sorely missing. Maybe an even more self serving methodology for the artist is for a short list of studios/artist (100 of them?) that are respected and successful provide this type of data in an anonymous "To All" format that can be published indicating what the median for services might be. Of course adjustment factors for location and all that could be attempted, but don't we really want the global economy, fee structure, standards of living and expections to level off across the globe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aaronrumple Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 I think that the industry needs an organization that looks out for archvis artist such as the AIA looks out for American architects. Lobbying and creating standards, of course I have problems with the AIA, and you are not forced to belong or abide by their standards, but what would be good is to publish a fee structure from the previous year, like they or government agencies do. The AIA tried to replicate the sort of fee structure used by doctors, but got sued big time by the FTC for anti-trust. They lost and paid big fines. Our lobby isn't as powerful as the AMA.... http://www.aia.org/about/antitrust/index.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihabkal Posted January 1, 2010 Author Share Posted January 1, 2010 (edited) but don't we really want the global economy, fee structure, standards of living and expections to level off across the globe? Beirut is one of the most expensive cities to live in, also apartments prices was multiplied by 3 in the last 3 years, no exageration. Also cars are 40% more expensive than in the US because we have a 40% customs tax on car imports. (unbelievable I know, but true) So someone who wants to buy a 3 bedroom appartment can expect to pay 200 grands MINIMUM. and a good car (one that can't drive on american streets because it is not good enough there) could cost about 10 grands. Anyway I was thinking, if those cheap artists want to live in a cardboard box, never get married, keep using the bus, live with their mamas till they're 40, good for them. they deserve it. A good car costs the same anywhere. a good house costs the same everywhere. cardbox too. Edited January 1, 2010 by ihabkal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihabkal Posted January 3, 2010 Author Share Posted January 3, 2010 Kind of funny for some of us to hear people from other countries complaining about this. Kind of funny I found this in TORONTO http://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/tor/egr/1534603519.html posted today... it says: Architecture Rendering - Quick and Reliable Results (Toronto ) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 2010-01-02, 7:02PM EST Reply to: job-ujjus-1534603519@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello! We are a group of students specializing in architecture rendering. Our goal is to give you fast, reliable and dynamic results in a short time. Our rates are very cheap, 1 Architecture Rendering Project - $75. Our projects include, blueprint to 3d rendering, 3d animation of a particular 3d structure, 3d structure rendering and interior design. Below are various client 3d rendering projects. Thank you for your time. Location: Toronto Compensation: 1 Architecture Project - $75. Principals only. Recruiters, please don't contact this job poster. Please, no phone calls about this job! Please do not contact job poster about other services, products or commercial interests. PostingID: 1534603519 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAllusionisst Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 Can you imagine doing a job for $75.00? Make more money digging ditches for a living, anyone need underground sprinklers put in? LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJLynn Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 I wouldn't take a meeting for $75. Even if these guys are students, they'd be making more money staffing the cafeteria. Only explanations I could think of would be: 1. They're full of crap. 2. They're trying to get portfolios and the $75 pays the ramen budget. BTW, Ihab, it's not really true that houses cost the same everywhere. Here, in Pittsburgh you can very easily find a 3 bedroom unit for $200k but in Manhattan you can't get any sort of 3 bedroom anything for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Homeless Guy Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 (edited) BTW, Ihab, it's not really true that houses cost the same everywhere. Here, in Pittsburgh you can very easily find a 3 bedroom unit for $200k but in Manhattan you can't get any sort of 3 bedroom anything for that. You could almost get a small studio in Manhattan for a little more than $200,000, but I wouldn't put a lot of faith in this article. It even comments that you will be paying another $500 a month in building maintenance cost. These units in the article are in the range of 250-350 square feet. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/12/realestate/12cov.html As for the $75 renderings... what did they look like? You are rarely going to get a well put together image that is both technically well done, and artistically well done for anywhere even close to that price. The fact that they are students doesn't instill a lot of faith either. Edited January 3, 2010 by Crazy Homeless Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihabkal Posted January 4, 2010 Author Share Posted January 4, 2010 it doesn't matter if the $75 renderings look horrible, as long as the cleitns are using their price as a pretext to haggle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorsten hartmann Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 hi, i think all artist/worker on the world need a world union of here professions. The Germans Unions are very good, but we need this to the hole world. mfg hot chip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAllusionisst Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 it doesn't matter if the $75 renderings look horrible, as long as the cleitns are using their price as a pretext to haggle Yep! That is why I thought an industry price listing of some sort allows you to dismiss pricing like that and enter realistic negotiations with potential clients. Even if you charge more than the median, plenty of times clients are willing to pay a premium for great service as well as quality product. I personally think the guide showing how much is the norm would also help open the eyes of clients so they respect what we do? In any event, it is a problem we all deal with, but in my opinion it was a major downfall in the field of architecture and why the fees architects get are rediculously low, they shot themselves in the foot undercutting one another, do we want our profession to follow in the same path? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihabkal Posted January 4, 2010 Author Share Posted January 4, 2010 we don't have a choice but to follow them imo. I had to explain to a friend of mine why when I was in the US I had a low salary compared to any other professional (doctor, dentist, lawyer, ..etc.) I think most architects are making as much as a Pizza Hut worker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kippu Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 you can always refuse the 75$ clients , what i have learnt is there will always be clients for specific price range ., you just have to get yours and stick with them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAllusionisst Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 you can always refuse the 75$ clients , what i have learnt is there will always be clients for specific price range ., you just have to get yours and stick with them Agreed! But I still think if a published price schedule was available even those $75 dollar people might start to think "Hey I should be making that kind of money!" I think the global economy, outsourcing and all that it encompasses will stop being regions/countries working cheaper once the general fees/standard of living/compensation requirements level out and then we will just have to worry about students under cutting us! LOL Seriously, when things level out it probably won't be enticing to hire outside your area/country when you can have regional people who speak your language, work your hours...... available for basically the same cost. Then it will start to be more based on who locally provides the best service and product priced accordingly (best bang for the buck), just like when you want to buy something locally at a physical store. Getting off topic, sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hkbasravi Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 I'm subscribing to this thread because I appreciate how real and relevent it is. I live in Toronto, and don't want to face the trouble of dealing with a client who can't discern between the quality of an "old-school" render and a cutting edge render that captivates, tells a story, and evokes emotion. It would be nice if all clients realized that there is a science behind how the eye navigates an image, and the ideas that the mind retains based on how the camera views are planned, and how the colors are managed. These are things that a learned renderer can offer that a 75$ renderer cannot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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