Crazy Homeless Guy Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 The older I get the more layers I seem to be working with. I did a quick search to see if there was an easy way to count the number of layers. I found this... http://blog.kyletunneyphotography.com/counting-layers-in-photoshop/ My current file has 373 Photoshop layers. This is the 6th file I have been working in today with around this many layers. I am going to have really bad dreams tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koper Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 373, whaaat??? you really should start collapsing layers that are done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattclinch Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 i regularly use 400+. its not uncommon. grouping and colouring is the secret to staying organised and i dont recommend collapsing down your non-destructive workflow unless you are having serious files size/saving time/refresh time issues. very nice script - thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Homeless Guy Posted February 15, 2010 Author Share Posted February 15, 2010 I do collapse eventually, but I was still modifying about 290 or so of those layers. In this case it was a heavily planted site, and I did the majority of the planting in post. Matt.. Are you able to work with that many layers in CS4 seamlessly? How about seamlessly at 16bit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAcky Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 how long does the file take to save?? I hate working with large files because everytime i git ctrl+s it takes a minute or two to save Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattclinch Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 (edited) Matt.. Are you able to work with that many layers in CS4 seamlessly? How about seamlessly at 16bit? No, my workflow is to work in 16 bit and do basic exposure shifts and colour correction until the image is close, and save that PSD as a "_16bitworkup.psd" then start a new 8bit file using the flattened version of that and save that as a "_8bitworkup.psd" version and do the majority of fine tuning and heavy layer work in that file. that way if i ever change the base render i can easily put in back in the 16bit version, then copy-merge the output of that into the bottom of the 8bit file. My record is something around the 1000 mark for layers, and i have no problem with that many layers in CS4 running smoothly. Edited February 15, 2010 by mattclinch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Buckley Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 1000 layers?? what for??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihabkal Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 how long does the file take to save?? I hate working with large files because everytime i git ctrl+s it takes a minute or two to save I save over the network so 5 minutes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Homeless Guy Posted February 15, 2010 Author Share Posted February 15, 2010 My record is something around the 1000 mark for layers, and i have no problem with that many layers in CS4 running smoothly. Hmmm.. I am still having so many problems with CS4 that I won't even use it, and instead use CS2. I was assuming it was because of the numbers of layers I was using, but you are exceeding me. I typically work in 16bit up until the final output, or very near the final output. I am able to do this in CS2 with no problems at all. My Photoshop files typically range between 500mb and 1gb. It handles them like a charm. But when I try to do the dame in CS4 it becomes pointless. I try to make modifications, and it takes CS4 a couple of minutes t update them. In CS2 the update was near instant. Maybe we need to try CS4 on a completely clean machine with none of our corporate installs on it to see how it preforms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Homeless Guy Posted February 15, 2010 Author Share Posted February 15, 2010 how long does the file take to save?? I hate working with large files because everytime i git ctrl+s it takes a minute or two to save Sometimes it is near instant it I am on my machine with a SSD drive, and working local. It seems to depend on whether I am doing an iteration save, or overwriting my working file. Also, save time seems to be effected by the number of changes I make. The longer save times are 2-3 minutes on the SSD. I am not sure about the machine with the mechanical drive because of my refusal to deal with CS4. Which is on that machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WAcky Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 I'm sick of apps/OS's becoming so obese that they're getting slower and slower with each release. It feels like whenever I upgrade my pc it actually gets slower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Hunt Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 A 1000 or even a 100 of layers is insaneand highly inefficient. I bet you spend a significant amount of time searching for layers. Simply scrolling the layer manager can take time, even the right click on a layer to get a list can be tediouse. I just dont understand why you need to use so many, or is it just because you can? I usually end up with a bunch of correction layers and no more than twenty other layers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Buchhofer Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 its all about groups/folders.. and the real culprit for me with numbers of layers is masked adjustment layers. the real reason there are a ton of layers is that i can easily replace 1 primary layer, and say 5 mask selections, and poof, the comp is re-built with the updated model. I wish we were all on cs4 though so we could use the smart layer xref panel. ah well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Homeless Guy Posted February 16, 2010 Author Share Posted February 16, 2010 A 1000 or even a 100 of layers is insaneand highly inefficient. I bet you spend a significant amount of time searching for layers. Simply scrolling the layer manager can take time, even the right click on a layer to get a list can be tediouse. I just dont understand why you need to use so many, or is it just because you can? I usually end up with a bunch of correction layers and no more than twenty other layers. I wouldn't consider it highly inefficient. Anytime you are basically matte painting an image, you are going to have to deal with a high number of layers. I tend to quickly position items, to get the composition I want. Then I go back and adjust the scale, and the lighting. At the same time I am applying adjustment layer to isolated part of the image, while also probably patch rendering other parts. I keep PSD entourage files that might have 50 or more different types of trees stacked into layers. I then sort through the layers, moving the trees I don't want to the side. I do the same thing with my PSD people files. There might be 50 people in 1 file that is designated for a certain category. More or less, I try to use Photoshop in a way that is simialr to how I might work in the real world if I were creating a collage. I just find it more intuitive that way, and actually easier to work with because I don't feel limited. If there is an easier and more intuitive way to do it effectively, I am all ears, but this working method is effective for me. I really have just started working with smart objects, so now each of my layers might have 2 or 3 additional layers contained within it. I am actually wanting to increase the number of project I do using this method also. I feel it allows me to think and react quickly as I am putting together a scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Homeless Guy Posted February 16, 2010 Author Share Posted February 16, 2010 I'm sick of apps/OS's becoming so obese that they're getting slower and slower with each release. It feels like whenever I upgrade my pc it actually gets slower. Amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Homeless Guy Posted February 16, 2010 Author Share Posted February 16, 2010 I wish we were all on cs4 though so we could use the smart layer xref panel. ah well. Smart layer xref panel? Now I am intrigued. I thought the best thing about CS4 was being able to see where you were about to stamp clone part of the image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Buchhofer Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 I thought the best thing about CS4 was being able to see where you were about to stamp clone part of the image. oh but it is! well, that and feathering masks nondestructively. http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2009/08/linked_smart_objects_kinda.html kinda linked smart objects was what i was talking about. I haven't really used it much though as somehow i'm on cs4 and the rest of the office is on cs2/3 edit.. oh that wasnt the right link, i can't seem to find it.. in short, someone had made a custom panel that somewhat automated the above process Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattclinch Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 A 1000 or even a 100 of layers is insaneand highly inefficient. I bet you spend a significant amount of time searching for layers. Simply scrolling the layer manager can take time, even the right click on a layer to get a list can be tediouse. I just dont understand why you need to use so many, or is it just because you can? I usually end up with a bunch of correction layers and no more than twenty other layers. i would disagree that it is inefficient. given a good layer naming standard, along with well structured and organised folders and sub-folders with colour coordinated areas, 1000 layers can be simple to navigate, taking seconds to find a particular layer - I even name the folders and sub folder to make it clearer on the right click layer menu. below is a recent example of a job. i end up with so many because i work in an entirely non-destructive way right up until the client signs everything off. after a number of situations where i have to re-render because i'd collapsed too much down that i now needed removed, or i'd flattened people where a client requested a certain highlight i'd painted be toned down, or over lapping people where the client suddenly wanted the foreground person shifted "a thumbs-width" to one side. without doubt i flatten unnecessary layers when a job is complete and i'm archiving it, but if no performance is lost working like this, i'm inclined to work as non-destructively as possible. the 1000 layer image i mentioned was a multiple cutaway, with large numbers of people/people shadows/painted highlights/colour correction/trees/tree shadows/multi-layered renders/ao/depth cueing/water/sky etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camby1298 Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 A 1000 or even a 100 of layers is insaneand highly inefficient. I bet you spend a significant amount of time searching for layers. Simply scrolling the layer manager can take time, even the right click on a layer to get a list can be tediouse. I just dont understand why you need to use so many, or is it just because you can? I usually end up with a bunch of correction layers and no more than twenty other layers. I find this to be quite a bold statement. In all respects; Ive seen artists take a canvas, and slap and whip paint all over the place. Paint goes all over the place, clothes, floor everywhere. And while observing this Im thinking, "this is such an insane way of to paint an image", and I dont understand why the artist would choose a nutty methodology and workflow to paint. And then, if things seemed like they couldnt get any more nuttier, he grabs the canvas, and flips it upside down and VOILA!...I finally see what the artist was going after. A painting of a person, or animal or whatever, it is a masterpiece of art. And even though Ill never understand how this person developed this way to paint, I find the final product amazing. Point is; There are hundreds of different ways and tools to produce images in our industry (and in art in general, if you consider Arch Viz art [see another forum posting for that arguement]). It isn't really important to question or judge how and image is produced, as long as the final product is delivered on time and pleases the architect, client or public etc, then which ever method was used to make said image should be considered effecient/effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1d2d3d4d Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 i can see having 100s of layers... i have gotten to a point personally where i can have all the things that don't overlap-directly on the same layer and adjust them as needed...whatever works for the individual..it's basically the same data, except the file now has info about each piece of image associated with a layer..the end pixels are all the same..about 70% of my image is done in photoshop and 30% is the raw render.. a similiar horror story that i work with regularly is Illustrator files with well over a 1000 layers of symbols, linework and text.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Burns Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 A 1000 or even a 100 of layers is insaneand highly inefficient. I bet you spend a significant amount of time searching for layers. Simply scrolling the layer manager can take time, even the right click on a layer to get a list can be tediouse. I just dont understand why you need to use so many, or is it just because you can? I usually end up with a bunch of correction layers and no more than twenty other layers. Agree totally with this. Some people though just seem to like to work inefficiently or else they know no better or don't want to know any better. I once tried to help somebody in work that was doing something their way that was going to take about 2 hours. I advised them that if they give me ten minutes I could show them how to do the job in a fraction of the time they where taking. The answer I got was I'm too busy :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Homeless Guy Posted February 18, 2010 Author Share Posted February 18, 2010 (edited) Agree totally with this. Some people though just seem to like to work inefficiently or else they know no better or don't want to know any better. I once tried to help somebody in work that was doing something their way that was going to take about 2 hours. I advised them that if they give me ten minutes I could show them how to do the job in a fraction of the time they where taking. The answer I got was I'm too busy :confused: I'm all ears... A typical situation where I would have at least 200-300 Photoshop layers might be an airport scene image. I need at least 100 people in the space to make it feels believable. Going into the project I know that the look and feel of these people will be highly contentious, and quite possibly need to be revisited towards the end of the project based on client reaction to them, or whether or not the composition of the people in the scene work with the framing of the image. It is common that a typically person I comp might have 3 or 4 layers each where I am trying to adjust the lighting, feel, reflection and shadow to get a certain feel for a scene. I would expect the initial layout of the people composite to take 2-3 hours to get the intial scale, composition, and lighting down for a very complex image. I then save this file, flatten, and copy the people to my main file. But.. this file is very likely to be more than 200-300 layers, especially if you consider that each smart object may be made up of 3 or 4 layers by themselves. I will keep a copy of this file because it is likely that I will need to change the composition of the people before the final image is submitted. I am in no ways close to the level of these guys at doing this, but look at this image by Dennis Allain, and another image by Luxigon. These are two types of looks that I am often being asked for on a daily basis. Not only are these images made up of way more than 100 people, but they also have a lot of painting done on top of the intial render to adjust the mood. Dennis Allain http://www.dennisallain.com/work/2006/09.html Luxigon Anyway, these images represent a direction I have been working towards over the last year, so any input on how to make the process more effecient will nto fall on deaf ears. Actually it would be highly appreciated because I would like more of my spare time back. Edited February 18, 2010 by Crazy Homeless Guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Homeless Guy Posted February 18, 2010 Author Share Posted February 18, 2010 I had to partially revisit an image I did a few months ago earlier today. I needed to compsite new people. I did the base positioning of the people yesterday, and now I need to go back, and refine the scale, position, and color tone of the individual people. The file is not as complex as some, it currently has 45 layers, even though I am only using 30-35 people. There are still a few people in the file that I added for potential use, though they did not make the final cut. I made a video of my current working method for the refinement of the people position, sale, and color tone. While the file only has 45 layers, I do break the smart object layers out mid way through into 3 layers for each one. I use these layers for light, and color tone. I have not gone back and added the shadowing yet, but there is little direct light in the scene, so they will probably only have heavy contact shadows. Essentially this image is kind of like working with around 100-120 layers if I take into consideration all of the adjustments inside of the smart objects. The image I am working on is 5000 pixels wide. Also, the video is about 7 or 8 minutes long. The process of refining the 30-35 or so people took 15 minutes, so I doubled the speed for the video so it was not so long. But anyway, ....what I wanted to show with this is both my working method to see if others have suggestions to improve it, and the eases at which you can work with that many layers. I don't consider it that ineffecient. The blinking of the screen video is due to CamStudio's screen recording. It was not actually blinking while I was working on it. http://phase22.com/misc/cgarchitect/People_Comp.wmv . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alias_marks Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 (edited) thought I'd throw this in for good measure and a little Friday comic relief The video is a bit odd, but the lyrics are great. Edited February 19, 2010 by alias_marks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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