Attempting to Recreate Wall Texture with Displacement

[illegalalieninbeijing]

Hello. I've been trying to recreate the wall on the the attached image below ( 1.jpg ). So far, this is what I have ( 2.jpg ). It is simply a surface with a bitmap image ( 3.jpg ) + bump map + uvw map modifier. As you can see, it is quite unsatisfactory. I have to photoshop those depressed parts of the bricks in the final image just to make it appear more 3 dimensional in close ups. The rest appears a bit fake without any depth.

 

Can anyone show me the best approach on achieving this without modeling it? I've searched and read a lot of tutorials about dispacement but still it does not turn out the way I like it or most likely I am doing it wrong.

 

Any suggestions will be be much appreciated. Thanks a lot.

[jinsley]

what render engine are you using Cecil? What settings are you using? Can you post the maps?

[illegalalieninbeijing]

Hi James,

 

Sorry for the late reply. I am using 3DS Max Design 2010 + Mental Ray. Attached are the settings I used. Any sugestions would really help. Thanks a lot.

[jinsley]

played around a little today on this...

 

1st image is brick with displacement mapped onto a box.

 

2nd image is displacement map mapped onto a box with the indents modeled...

 

I think the 2nd works far better... is there a reason why the columns and walls can't be modeled? If you look at the bricks pattern and do some quick calculations the dimensions of the inset and frequency can be figured out... its a lot more work, but the quality is much better, especially if you are worried about close-ups.

[illegalalieninbeijing]

played around a little today on this...

 

1st image is brick with displacement mapped onto a box.

 

2nd image is displacement map mapped onto a box with the indents modeled...

 

I think the 2nd works far better... is there a reason why the columns and walls can't be modeled? If you look at the bricks pattern and do some quick calculations the dimensions of the inset and frequency can be figured out... its a lot more work, but the quality is much better, especially if you are worried about close-ups.

 

Hi James,

 

Thanks for the swift response. I agree. The 2nd one is looking much better and that's how I would do it in the first place. But my real goal was to achieve the 1st one. I'm just exploring other alternatives into modeling less and lessening polygon count as well. I model about 95% in AutoCAD and most of these walls were created by applying Thickness to a polyline. Do I need to convert the wall object into something else like adding segments into it?

 

Did you apply the displacement map on the Special Purpose Maps rollout or used a the Displace Modifier?

 

Under the Render Setup: Mental Ray Render Common Tab, I suppose the Common Parameters Rollout>Option>Displacement should be checked? What about the Displacement (Global Setting) under the Rederer Tab> Shadows & Displacement Rollout?

 

Thanks a lot.

Edited March 1, 2010 by illegalalieninbeijing

[jinsley]

Hi James,

 

Thanks for the swift response. I agree. The 2nd one is looking much better and that's how I would do it in the first place. I'm just exploring other alternatives into modeling less and lessening polygon count as well. I model about 95% in AutoCAD and most of these walls were created by applying Thickness to a polyline. Do I need to convert the wall object into something else like adding segments into it?

 

Did you apply the displacement map on the Special Purpose Maps rollout or used a the Displace Modifier?

 

Under the Render Setup: Mental Ray Render Common Tab, I suppose the Common Parameters Rollout>Option>Displacement should be checked? What about the Displacement (Global Setting) under the Rederer Tab> Shadows & Displacement Rollout?

 

Thanks a lot.

 

I understand the need to cut down polys (are you on 64 bit?), I don't know if it is as necessary now a days (I'm not saying that it isn't good practice though) with computers able to make use of more and more ram through 64 bit systems. I recently upgraded to 16 GB after suffering a few crashes on 8 GB of ram. I know I could probably pick through the scenes and spend time optimizing them, but I hardly ever have any time to do so in order to meet the deadline.

 

1. I applied the displacement map through the material in the special purposes rollout...

 

2. edge length = 0.5 - 1.0, smoothing unchecked, max displace set according to what I need... usually on more than 4", max. sub = 16k, i usually add a subdivide modifier to the objects that will use the dipslacement and adjust it accordingly.

 

3. you will have to have displacement checked in the common tab.

[illegalalieninbeijing]

I understand the need to cut down polys (are you on 64 bit?), I don't know if it is as necessary now a days (I'm not saying that it isn't good practice though) with computers able to make use of more and more ram through 64 bit systems. I recently upgraded to 16 GB after suffering a few crashes on 8 GB of ram. I know I could probably pick through the scenes and spend time optimizing them, but I hardly ever have any time to do so in order to meet the deadline.

 

1. I applied the displacement map through the material in the special purposes rollout...

 

2. edge length = 0.5 - 1.0, smoothing unchecked, max displace set according to what I need... usually on more than 4", max. sub = 16k, i usually add a subdivide modifier to the objects that will use the dipslacement and adjust it accordingly.

 

3. you will have to have displacement checked in the common tab.

 

Unfortunately no. What I have here in the office is a Dell Optiplex 755 running on an Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 @ 2.40GHZ & 1.96 of RAM. So you can see my dilemma here. But they promised me with a better machine soon (hopefully). The settings I have posted is best suited for this machine with lesser rendering times.

 

I'll give it a try and I will let you know in awhile. Thanks a lot.

Edited March 2, 2010 by illegalalieninbeijing

[illegalalieninbeijing]

I remember now why I don't use Displacement (Global Settings). It crashes 3DS Max all the time. I remember when I was using it for grass making for awhile. So I guess for my case, modeling it would be a better solution.

 

Thanks a lot.

[jinsley]

I remember now why I don't use Displacement (Global Settings). It crashes 3DS Max all the time. I remember when I was using it for grass making for awhile. So I guess for my case, modeling it would be a better solution.

 

Thanks a lot.

 

After looking at the specs I was going to say that you might want to forgo the displacement and stick with bump maps and decent modeling.

 

If you are consistently modeling and rendering for the firm, then they should invest in a better machine for you. The cost of a decent workstation that will be used for primarily rendering, pays off very quickly after being used on a few projects. Have a machine that you model and do your PS on, and purchase a dual core machine that will act primarily as your render box.

 

Currently I am working on 3 machines. 1 for modeling, and doing graphic work (and drafting when necessary)... and 2 64 bit machines that I try to keep working 24/7 at just rendering out images and simple animations.

 

With the way the the COV and Surrey are going (I think I remember you being in New West), graphic presentation is playing a larger and larger role.

 

If the company wants to keep you busy rendering and modeling in-house, they should provide you with the proper equipment.

[Justin Hunt]

regardless of rendering app, displacment will use heaps more memory than pollies, and more often than not take longer to render. So any time saved in not modelling such simple detail is waisted at rendering with crashes and overly long render times.

 

Clean efficient modeling is the most effectinve memory saver ever.

 

Back when 16mb of Ram was considered alot we still had very detailed models that rendered.

 

jhv

[RevitGary]

I have a trick not mentioned .. use a bump map then in photo shop do a little work on just the edges to show the grout indents. Should take less then a couple minutes.

 

oops I guess you did mention it in your first post. well I guess what I am saying is whats wrong with doing it in post. whatever it takes

Edited March 3, 2010 by RevitGary

[illegalalieninbeijing]

After looking at the specs I was going to say that you might want to forgo the displacement and stick with bump maps and decent modeling.

 

If you are consistently modeling and rendering for the firm, then they should invest in a better machine for you. The cost of a decent workstation that will be used for primarily rendering, pays off very quickly after being used on a few projects. Have a machine that you model and do your PS on, and purchase a dual core machine that will act primarily as your render box.

 

Currently I am working on 3 machines. 1 for modeling, and doing graphic work (and drafting when necessary)... and 2 64 bit machines that I try to keep working 24/7 at just rendering out images and simple animations.

 

With the way the the COV and Surrey are going (I think I remember you being in New West), graphic presentation is playing a larger and larger role.

 

If the company wants to keep you busy rendering and modeling in-house, they should provide you with the proper equipment.

 

Hi James,

 

Right on. I had a couple of discussions with our network guy earlier this year on upgrading my machine plus an extra machine so that I could continue working on something else while the other one is rendering. I'll probably resort to network rendering soon.

 

Do mind if I ask what is the specifications of your main machine do give me a better idea what to ask?

 

Thanks a lot.

[illegalalieninbeijing]

regardless of rendering app, displacment will use heaps more memory than pollies, and more often than not take longer to render. So any time saved in not modelling such simple detail is waisted at rendering with crashes and overly long render times.

 

Clean efficient modeling is the most effectinve memory saver ever.

 

Back when 16mb of Ram was considered alot we still had very detailed models that rendered.

 

jhv

 

Hi Justin,

 

Right on. I got used to getting crappy machines that the way I model my stuff are as if I was using an old Pentium machine.

[illegalalieninbeijing]

I have a trick not mentioned .. use a bump map then in photo shop do a little work on just the edges to show the grout indents. Should take less then a couple minutes.

 

Hello Gary,

 

That's what I did. But in close ups, it would still reveal in render as shown below. Here's the bump map that I've used as well. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Justin Hunt]

Did you say that you model in Autocad? If so try modeling with a Wall object and add a "Body modifier" and subtract the recess, which is a mass element.

 

Whats nice is that you can go back and edit the mass element to change the recess.

 

jhv

[RevitGary]

I meant after the render... see attachment ...with the clone stamp tool this took 3 minutes. obviously this only works for stills

 

I guess you did mention it in your first post. well I guess what I am saying is whats wrong with doing it in post. whatever it takes

Edited March 3, 2010 by RevitGary

[illegalalieninbeijing]

Did you say that you model in Autocad? If so try modeling with a Wall object and add a "Body modifier" and subtract the recess, which is a mass element.

 

Whats nice is that you can go back and edit the mass element to change the recess.

 

jhv

 

You lost me there . But thanks for the suggestion. I will try to look into that later .

[jinsley]

You lost me there . But thanks for the suggestion. I will try to look into that later .

 

Lost me too... maybe its time for a refresher. Justin, is this in 2010? or has it always existed? Sounds interesting...

 

Cecil, I will post my machine specs later when I have time, but I don't think you should limit yourself to them... there was a great article posted recently about hardware and specs for machines in different price ranges. and I would check out some sites like BOXX and even Dell.ca to see what they are offering. Even NCIX has some decent sales right now... I would order the parts and assemble it yourself with your IT guy if that is possible.

 

Best thing I ever did was build my last computer so I could teach myself a thing or too about the one piece of equipment that makes my mortgage payments possible.

[illegalalieninbeijing]

I meant after the render... see attachment ...with the clone stamp tool this took 3 minutes. obviously this only works for stills

 

I guess you did mention it in your first post. well I guess what I am saying is whats wrong with doing it in post. whatever it takes

 

Hey, that actually looked better than what I did .

 

I definitely have no objections with post. But if you can do it right the first time, that's not so bad either - like hitting a a flock of birds with 1 catapult stone. Thanks a lot.

[illegalalieninbeijing]

Lost me too... maybe its time for a refresher. Justin, is this in 2010? or has it always existed? Sounds interesting...

 

Cecil, I will post my machine specs later when I have time, but I don't think you should limit yourself to them... there was a great article posted recently about hardware and specs for machines in different price ranges. and I would check out some sites like BOXX and even Dell.ca to see what they are offering. Even NCIX has some decent sales right now... I would order the parts and assemble it yourself with your IT guy if that is possible.

 

Best thing I ever did was build my last computer so I could teach myself a thing or too about the one piece of equipment that makes my mortgage payments possible.

 

Oh yeah. I was looking at http://www.3datstech.com/ yesterday thinking the exact same thing. Hopefully I'll get a favourable response. Thanks a lot James.

[jinsley]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_eFP4BDVhPAI/S2tJBNEW2uI/AAAAAAAAAWc/s8Q-V6bnNnE/s1600-h/Feb_2010_HighEnd.png

 

this is from the website and is very close to what I have as my main render machine... I have a 9800 GTX+ though instead of the quadro and have just upgaded to 16 GB of RAM. I don't know if you need the quadro... seems like most people opt for the 9800 unless they are doing GPU based functions.

[Justin Hunt]

IN ADT (or Architecture) there are Parametric wall objects.

 

1) Creat your column with the Wall tool, defining the thickness and height as needed.

2) Create a Mass Element that is the same shape as the recess

3) Select the column and Right-Click -> Body Modifier

3) Assign the Mass Element as "Subract"

4) The mass element will Subract booleen the recess out of the column

 

If you want to change the recess later

 

1)Select the column

2)Right-click -> Body modifier -> Modify

3) move, resize whatever the mass element and the recess will update

 

This also works rather well for shadow gaps

 

jhv

[jinsley]

ok, sorry I thought you meant AutoCAD...

[illegalalieninbeijing]

IN ADT (or Architecture) there are Parametric wall objects.

 

1) Creat your column with the Wall tool, defining the thickness and height as needed.

2) Create a Mass Element that is the same shape as the recess

3) Select the column and Right-Click -> Body Modifier

3) Assign the Mass Element as "Subract"

4) The mass element will Subract booleen the recess out of the column

 

If you want to change the recess later

 

1)Select the column

2)Right-click -> Body modifier -> Modify

3) move, resize whatever the mass element and the recess will update

 

This also works rather well for shadow gaps

 

jhv

 

That did work. Thanks for the suggestion. I'll consider using that on my next modeling. Most of the time I would use pxt.lsp or sweep on the exterior face of the wall only.