Realtime Visualisation Software

[quizzy]

My main concern about Cubicspace RTRE is its performance which basically sucks. My aim for my realtime city was 500,000 polygons, but it went above that quite fast. To my knowledge only Quest3D was able to perform with the 6.3 million polygons on an average computer. The RPC support for RTRE is indeed very nice, I could only wish that there was some RCP support for Quest3D. BUT!! in the near future when RPC is scriptable again, i'll be doing some scripting to make RPC's compatible with Quest3D. Don't know how I will do it, but I'll try it anyway. I think the guys from Quest should write some sort of custom channel that supports the change of image according to viewing angle. And with their nature painter tool it's really cool to just spray the RPC's in the VR-environment.

What I really like about cult3d is its tight integration with MAX. Quest3D uses directX output. So the workflow is a little more time consuming I gues. But quest3D has an update function built in, so you can easily update object data.

[JJHUANG]

I didn't see any VR system got realtime shadow & realtime reflection.

Not even most expensive software Multigen.If any I would like to try.

I saw a software support realtime reflection which is a japanese software.

But,You can find realtime shadow in Video games. like "splinter cell".

[doimus]

Actually... there isn't such graphic card (consumer grade, anyway) that could do any kind of real time shadows or reflections, or any other ray-traced activity.

Basically, they're all limited only to geometry and few lighting effects (DirectX & OpenGL)... all shadows you see are just another objects and all reflections are in fact duplicated geometry. Graphic cards *do not* calculate them as rendering software does.

It all comes down to programmer/artist's skill & experience in taking today's software and hardware to the limits, after all...

[SINNER]

if we speak for 3DRTRE (Real Time Render Engins)

 

i mind all of you need cheek that

 

http://www.ndl.com/

 

Architecture

Gamebryo S|T's well-architected C++ API offers:

 

Flexibility to create any type of application

A hierarchical scene graph with support for multiple geometric primitives including lines, particles, triangles and triangle strips.

Multiple culling and sorting techniques that leave more CPU cycles for simulation and for drawing visible objects. Different techniques can be used simultaneously in different parts of the scene graph.

Performance

The Gamebryo S|T engine brings the performance historically relegated to high-end, special-purpose visual simulation systems to lower-cost PC systems. We achieve superior performance through:

 

Batching of primitives. Expensive set-up time for primitives can be minimized by grouping together primitives that share the same rendering attributes (such as texture, lighting, etc.).

Selective update. Non-moving scene elements don't require updating as frequently as those scene elements that move, lowering per-frame update time and increasing frame rate.

Tri-Stripping. Grouping adjacent triangles into “strips” that share vertices can represent a significant performance boost, due to optimizations in the rendering pipeline for shared vertices.

Aggressive culling. Many opportunities exist for trivial rejection of scene elements that the application “knows” do not need to be rendered in a particular scene from a particular vantage point. Applications may flag entire subtrees in a scene graph to be ignored when updating and/or rendering a given frame.

Portal-based visibility. Portal systems represent a special case of aggressive culling that can be used for indoor scenarios. They trivially reject certain “rooms” from consideration for a particular vantage point.

Small memory footprint.

Fast load times. Support for background loading allows smooth loading of files during simulation with no apparent load times.

Rendering

 

Pixel and vertex shaders. Programmers can write their own pixel and vertex shaders, drop in or modify shaders from HLSL, or use “off-the-shelf” shaders provided with Gamebryo S|T.

Dynamic RGB lighting. Any color, and may be point, infinite or spotlights. Specular highlights and pre-lit vertices are also supported.

A fully general camera model.

Transparency, including alpha-blended translucency, which can be used to create cutout billboards, stained-glass windows and other effects.

A wide range of texture effects:

Multi-textures, such as light maps, dark maps, gloss maps and decals.

Projected textures, including projected lights and shadows (for interesting lighting effects).

Animated textures, for effects such as fog, fire, smoke and explosions.

Spherical and cubic environment maps.

Rendered textures, which may be used for television screens in the scene, dynamic shadows, mirrors and other advanced effects.

Bump mapping.

Special Effects

Gamebryo S|T supports a wide range of special effects, including:

 

Fog is supported in three modes: range-based, Z-based and (texture-based) volumetric.

Lens flare.

Dynamic shadows.

Pixel-accurate, high-performance 2D elements (for user interface, instrument panels, and text rendering).

Animation and Motion

 

Animation. Full support for almost all animation methods that are produced from 3ds max and Maya, including:

Hierarchical, spline-based interpolations, translation and rotation keyframes using linear, Bezier and TCB, rotations with quaternions

Cycle control for clamping, looping and reversing sequences.

Skinned characters – Gamebryo S|T allows you to apply “bones” to objects to achieve the most realistic and natural range of motion in your characters.

Level of detail (LOD) for all polygonal objects.

Bone LOD – Provides the ability to specify the level of detail for the bones of skinned characters, which greatly reduces processor cycles spent animating characters in the distance.

Particle systems. Virtually every type of particle system animation from 3ds max and Maya are supported, for example, snow, moving emitters, deflectors, particle bomb, particle array and particle cloud.

Dynamic collision detection.

Run-Time Performance Analysis Tools

Gamebryo S|T can gather performance profiling and memory tracking statistics for updating and rendering an entire scene graph in real time. Statistics include such metrics as:

 

Time to render each object

Number of polygons rendered for each object

Culling vs. rendering statistics per object

Profile of memory usage

[skogskalle]

probably going a bit off topic here but...

 

realtime 3d models are cool, and theyre great cause you can move around freely and all - but I honestly think that a series of linked panorama mov movies is a better way of showing off an environment.

the imagequality is great, you get all the nice looking stuff like reflections, perfect shadows etc. and if you place the nodes (viewpoints) wisely you can make sure that all the important parts of the model gets shown...

 

Todays hardware (of the kind most people have) just dont have the power to render a big model in realtime over the web in the same quality.

 

plus, the download isnt really an issue cause your downloading the panoramas one by one as you move through the scene.

 

For smaller scenes, or for simply showing off a single 3dmodel the realtime technique is great though - Ive seen some realtime stuff made with Cult3D that was close to photoreal and downloaded quite fast from the web.

 

...

I have no experience in working with realtime 3D, and very little experience with panoramas - Im just basing all of the above of other peoples stuff Ive seen.

and again - sorry if this got a little off topic

 

cheers

Kalle

[Cubicspace]

Hey all

 

Quizzy says our software "sucks" because of poor performance, and we invite observation if it's fair, but doesn't say what graphics card or driver is being used. Perhaps the model tested had non-Power of 2 textures, funky modeling, weird modifiers - who knows what. Users have tested rtre up to 5million polys fully textured, with reflection maps, baked textures, AVIs running.

 

The best way to see rtre in action first-hand, is to downlaod some examples from the Turbo Squid website http://www.turbosquid.com that you should download and play with - especially Pantheon which is large - around 700K polys, 80MB high qulaity textures, reflections etc. 3D World's Pete Draper, the highly respected 3D max Artist tested rtre independently last year and gave it 10/10 in every category. rtre is the result of 5 years development from scratch, and is not aimed at games development. Ultimately it comes down to how much time the artist wants to spend on lighting, textures etc.

 

It worth mentioning to end, that Discreet and Turbo Squid reviewed rtre themselves in detail before inviting it into the Discreet Certified Plugin program - Discreet even sell rtre from http://www.discreet.com. None of the other "competitors" can say that!

 

Lastly - try rtre yourselves - Turbo Squid has an Eval version you can play with.

 

Bon chance.

[Jeff Mottle]

As I've mentioned numberous times the forums ARE NOT for advertising.

 

Thanks in advance.

[Cubicspace]

Hey Jeff

 

My polite response

 

Every post pretty much in here has an advertising message of sorts and no comment is made.

 

You yourself recommend people go to Smoothe for their business, and you are heading up Smoothe in Canada - what's the difference?

 

When we signed TS we insisted they get a banner on your site for rtre, and our plans are to continue to support your site. They are spending money with you becuase of us!

 

I'm happy to respond to Quizzy by changing my post becuase he asked nicely. Jeff, you flamed me for advertising and posted it publicly - not nice

 

Steven

[quizzy]

Well, lets stick to the topic.. As for the performance of Cubicspace, I've tested several scenes on a normal comp. with fair specs. I've tested about 15 different kinds of software, all real-time software that is. I've tested scenes from 500.000 polys and up cause that was my aim. Besides all the VRML softwares which really "sucked" at performing at a descent framerate, I found Cubicspace and VR4MAX lack in performance too. Just my honest opinion, I dont have any shares in Quest3D or something.... Allthough it is a dutch company... I'm sure you (Steven) have tested all softwares form colleages??

[Cubicspace]

Thanks for that. I appreciate it's always a personal opinion, but it bothers me, when I've seen so many examples on users systems performing really well. It's not always just about high framerate, we see 20fps as v.g. when there's also some AVI's playing, a high number of high-res textures, and a complex model to contend with, One of the areas that plays a considerable part is the graphics card, and the brand is all too important. nVidia and ATI are our favourites.

 

If you are able to send us the model that gave such a poor performance in rtre and some more information about the "fair" system you used, we would like to comment further.

 

There are so many issues with VR4MAX by Tree-C that don't come close to rtre (users comments). When all is said and done, the user will decide depending on their budget and performance but mostly/hopefully on ease of use.

 

We can close the chapter now....

[cyberyEn]

hello....

 

izzit have any plugin software make something like 360 animation walkthrough...that sound like realtime but this technique need to rendering process.

 

-cyberyEn-

[vizwhiz]

hi There

 

Jeff and ya'all

 

why not have a Contest and just which software can do What?

This would give us all (who dont have such softwares) a chance

 

to evaluate the End Results

 

AND

 

This would equally give all of the Softwares a chance to Strut their Stuff

 

just an idea

 

but i am more than idle curiousity to see what The End Results would look like

i may end up (having) to do several entire Hospitals in full 3d with interactive walkthru capabilities here at work

 

so This would help in making a software acquisition decision

 

LETS GO FOR IT !!

 

(The rabbit said as the Headlights approached faster than expected)

 

Thanks

 

Randy

[C.Vestal]

My biggest concern is portability. I love Quest3D's performance as well. I have downloaded the Quest3D executables, put them on a thumbdrive to test at my clients. I would like to see my clients interest in the product/service before I invest the time to get the process down.

 

8 out of 9 of my clients I visited, could not successfully play the demos. The main reason is the software requirements for the .exe (DirectX 8.1) I am not about to start installing software like that at my clients system and this quickly changes the interest in the presentation.

 

I realize installing DirectX 8.1 is not that big of a process, however, with virus scares, protective IT personnel, and just leaving a bad taste in the mouth of the end user I have stopped promoting the service in this way. This is disappointing being that I know most of my clients would love the service if it was more stable and easier to run.

 

On top of that I have clients who would love to put this on the web. I am hesitating because of firewalls blocking a .exe and the directX thing.

 

Has anyone else ran into this or are you keeping it in house or on your laptop??

 

thanks,

[kimblarsen]

Hi Nisus!

 

Great to meet up with you at the 3D Festival in Copenhagen - and since I talked a bit about real time architecture visualisation there - here are a couple of real-time visualisation software:

 

Octaga Octagon Player: http://www.octaga.com/

DigitalArts VisuAll: http://www.digitalarts.dk/

 

Cheers

Kim,

 

Hi all,

 

Here is a small list of realtime visualisation software:

 

rtre / cubicspace: http://www.cubicspace.com/rtre

 

virtools: http://www.virtools.com/

 

turntool: http://www.turntool.com

 

cult3d: http://www.cult3d.com

 

Feel free to add some comments, experience or more links

 

rgds

 

nisus

[C.Vestal]

Kim,

DigitalArts VisuAll looks great, have you tested? pricing?

I have put in a request for license cost. I have not heard anything yet.

[nisus]

Hi Kim,

 

Great to have met you (again) at CPH. Tnx for updating the list... Maybe it's time to start a VR-unchallenge???

 

What do you all of you guys think?

 

nisus

[C.Vestal]

Below is the reply I got from Digital Arts:

 

 

 

The official prices for VisuAll right now are:

VisuAll Basic: 2000 euro.

VisuAll Stereo: 1000 euro, basic required.

VisuAll Phantom: 1000 euro, basic and stereo required.

The prices are pr. user. and include a full license to distribute all content as much as you like without any other royalty.

 

However, we are in a beta phase right now with selected partners, so pricing isn't quite fixed yet, but it will give you an idea. Also, if you want to start working with VisuAll right away, we can provide you a very cheap beta license - but it also depends on how experienced you are in using Max and how willing you are to work with us.

 

Talk to you

Thomas Rued

[vizwhiz]

hi There

 

Nisus and ya'all

 

rtre is now being hosted and posted at TurboSquid

the official discreet plug-in website

 

http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/index.cfm/ID/218794

 

hey lets have a CONTEST

 

thanks

 

Randy

[Cyberdigitus]

I'd also like to mention shockwave 3D (Macromedia director) and don't forget game engines like unreal or halflife. Personally i can't wait to use unreal engine 3 for architecture visualisation! There are also some decent open source projects going, like Axiom or Ogre, which are general 3D graphics engines. it would require some programming but it would be nice to develop a 'walktrough engine' with that.

[Richard McCarthy]

 

8 out of 9 of my clients I visited, could not successfully play the demos. The main reason is the software requirements for the .exe (DirectX 8.1) I am not about to start installing software like that at my clients system and this quickly changes the interest in the presentation.

 

I realize installing DirectX 8.1 is not that big of a process, however, with virus scares, protective IT personnel, and just leaving a bad taste in the mouth of the end user I have stopped promoting the service in this way. This is disappointing being that I know most of my clients would love the service if it was more stable and easier to run.

 

On top of that I have clients who would love to put this on the web. I am hesitating because of firewalls blocking a .exe and the directX thing.

 

Has anyone else ran into this or are you keeping it in house or on your laptop??

 

thanks,

 

 

 

Well, did I just miss out another real-time post again?! damn it ! LOL

 

Okay, here it is.. from what I read, I think you could try wirefusion.

http://www.demicron.com

It's a Java3D (software java rendering) engine that can do some reasonable rendering, and its' "reasonably" fast for a software renderer using java. It DOES NOT requires any extra installation as long as JAVA is standard on the end user's desktop, and on top of that, the plugin is less than 31 K!! amazing!

I got a full version when I bought the most recent issue of Cmoputer Arts magazine (on the front cover there is the CD... "WIREFUSION 3.2" full version) I believe the newest version is 4.0. It really can do some amazing presentation, with Quest 3D like "wiring" workflow.

 

As for hardware acceleration, there "used to be" a small company called "Shout3D"... (ah, brings back all the old memories again) which produced an amazing shout3D java applet, which USE the OPENGL hardware accelerated rendering with java hook. Problem is that this company no longer exist.. you can probably still find books of it in the book store though...(learning shout3D... check AMAZON.com) I really like that plugin and had wish it succeed, but over all these years, it looks like every web 3D company becomes another roadkill of TIME and LACK OF INTEREST.

Other technology worth mentioning..

http://www.pulse3d.com

This Pulse 3D has got the most stable, and probably the best looking and game like engine in tiny plugin (400k). They used to be hosted on numerious site even on MTV.com, featuring talking Bill Clinton in a really comedy, but now, it's all gone

[lordmidas]

I started to fool around with realtime 3d a couple of weeks ago. I came across one software not mentionned in that thread ... AXEL v2.

 

I was surprise ... it is really easy to use and it run pretty smooth.

 

http://www.mindavenue.com/en/home/