Architects Sketches

[JHalton]

Can anyone see a problem with asking Architects for A sketch of their design? Everytime.

 

Someone I work with has a problem with it. For some strange reason.

[STRAT]

eh?

[kingeldar]

does he know how to draw (usin hands and pencil) ???

lol

[STRAT]

i always ask the architect for a quick sketch to make my life easier. they do it every time. bless their cotton socks.

[Ernest Burden III]

The other important thing about getting a sketch for a change or other-wise un-documented detail is creating a 'paper trail' of your instructions. This can be very useful to actually understand what they want, and show that you did what was expected if there is a dispute later. I hate to promote CYA thinking, but a covered A is best, in the end.

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

ernest is right in keeping a record like that. i work in a firm, so when a new project comes across my desk, i would rather look at the drawings, or a couple of sketches. make myself familiar with the project, then make a couple of my own sketches describing what parts i do not understand to whoever the designer on the project is. then they can give me sketches back, if they had different concepts of what it was/is.

 

if you are working for yourself, i would definitely take ernests approach. a sketch from the hand of the designer is hard to argue. i would make them sign and date the sketch also.

 

the only reason i would see someone being reluctant in sketching their design is if they do not fully understand it, and want to see it in computer model form to get a better understanding of it. then they will make changes based upon what you show them, causing you more work because it was not correct the first time... which isn't a big deal if you are at a firm, time permitting of course, but if you are contracted, you might be in the additional service area.

[JHalton]

what parts i do not understand to whoever the designer on the project is. then they can give me sketches back, if they had different concepts of what it was/is.

 

date the sketch also.

 

then they will make changes based upon what you show them, causing you more work because it was not correct the first time.

"then they will make changes based upon what you show them"!!!!! This is a big deal for me.

 

(before planning) Sometimes I work on a project and get to a 'modelling completed' stage and send them an image to 'annotate' for any changes.

 

They always take ages to get back to me and always do a return amendment when they do.

 

I do the change, go through the same process again and then theres 'more changes' and this goes on the further I get.

 

How can I stop this happening, how can I word it to make it sound like a really painful thing to do. *(This is obviously jobs that occur before planning in the UK)* (How is this dealt with in the US?)

 

Not had problems ever, with clients that have projects that have planning granted (even with the problem clients!)

 

Thanks geezers!

 

J

[Chad Warner]

The only thing I could think of to stop this type of process is to state in the original contract that the architect is only allowed to make a certain number of changes to the design before they get charged for it. In my experience, 90% of the time when the architect sees their design in a rendered format they want to change it, so this is a good way to protect yourself from getting taken advantage of.

 

-Chad

[Iain Denby]

This happens to me all the time. Interestingly, it very rareley happened at all when I used traditional techniques. But as anoying as it is, I suppose from the architect's point od view, they are using the 3D model as a design tool. I don't mind one or two changes, but when it carries on, I say ' In order to complete this image on time, I need to commit to a design by this afternoon, even if the design continues to develop'.

[kingeldar]

well i worked as an architect before cg (graduated architecte i am....)

i can tell you, most architects (in france idon't know somewhere else) don't even know how to use a computer

&

BELIEVE u only got to press da button to get that magnificient 3D =they don't realize we've got to work a bunch of hours to create that 3d with all it's nice materials & lights...

 

when u believe it ain't work WHERE'S DA PROBLEME ASKIN'FOR EVERLASTIN' CHANGES & corrections.....

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

i agree with the problem that the people asking for the changes do not understand how much time the changes will take. if the change is different from what was laid out in the initial contract, i would draft an additional service contract for the number of hours it will take you to complete that change, and present it to them. architecture firms use additional service contracts constantly when their clients change their minds, so it may be effective for you to use it on them. also, when you issue sets for review, you might try issuing by percentage complete. we have deadlines in architecture where we will issue a set that is '90%' complete. this basically means that you are to review the set, and only the red lines will be corrected from here. the red lines being things that are drawn wrong because of the drafters fault, not because the design changed. if the design changes at this point, then it is an additional service.

 

...also, make sure you have a solid contract or proposal for service written for them to sign before you start the project. it should entail your responsibilities for creating a model and rendering based on the information you receive for them, and that changes that occur after you issue a 50% complete set to them will be billed at an additional hourly rate of... or something that outlines that, and they sign.

 

this was brought up recently in another thread, and someone on the board suggested that even if you do not bill for the additional service, you should still issue an invoice statement for that additional service that states them number of hours spent on it, hourly rate, and then waive the total fee for the additional service you provided.

[garethace]

Another CG Architect 'lets all of us here just bitch and whine to our little hearts' contentment' about architects? Grow up guys.

 

Ernest, is this something you have a problem with? Not ever becoming an architect yourself or something. The reason I am asking, is you are thought of very highly here and have maturity.

 

Would you admit to just some bit of resentment at architects? I am very interested. Personally I do not enjoy this 'split camp' approach, with CGA's on one side and architects on the other.

 

It is totally counter productive.

[3dp]

jhalton said "Someone I work with has a problem with it. For some strange reason."

 

maybe the design is not quite as resolved as the architect if it is he/she has made out

 

too many time visuals form part of the design process even if it is not aknowledged at the time

 

gareth ace

 

in my experience most architects do not warrant the term as they do not posses the skills required to hold that title

designer, project manager, meeting attendee, some one who causes arguements.

some of it down to poor education and some is down to ego but ......

if a architect's role is to encapsulate and redefine physical space for the greater good (or profit) he/she had better have some skills in being able to communicate the idea in the first place otherwise what's the point

just because you are called architect does not mean you are in my book and i like to see proof

 

oh and are we going to see some of your work at some point

 

3dp not a architect by choice.................

[Ernest Burden III]

Ernest, is this something you have a problem with? Not ever becoming an architect yourself or something. The reason I am asking, is you are thought of very highly here and have maturity.

That's a good one! That last bit is right up there with "so tell us, exactly when did you stop beating your wife?"

 

You must have hit on something there, I must harbor some deepfelt resentment that I was never allowed into the architects secret handshake club. I'm deeply disturbed by my complete lack of architectural training.

 

Or how about this--I have worked for architects daily for over 20 years. I can back up any caution I advise or problem I describe here with stories of the real behaviour of real, trained, licenced architects considered to be in good standing by their peers. Maybe Irish architects are different, my experience is mostly with American firms, and then mostly in the New York City area. So maybe I need a wider world view. Fortunately I have that in this community.

 

The thread is about whether it is important to have our clients put their instructions to us in writing. All responses--save yours, Gareth--are relevant to that topic.

[Brian Cassil]

In my office, using 3D as a design tool is the only way we do things. In fact, sometimes (although rarely) I've done some fairly intensive modeling only to study a design and never finished a rendering of that project. I realize this is strictly for companies that have a dedicated visualization artist on staff and not for anyone doing freelance work. I do some freelance work as well though and the suggestions here sound very valid.

 

I have to say that Gareth Ace's comments about Ernest's "resent" for never becoming an Architect is pretty insulting but is an attitude I've seen from lots of architects. I get asked the question 'So why didn't you go on in architecture' all the time. They must presume that I couldn't go on or that I didn't have what it took to make it , and used visualization as something that I fell back on. It makes me laugh really because I look at the work that goes on around me and feel so gratefull that I made the decisions I did.

[garethace]

Well guys, I had an interest in using computers as design tools.... once, that went down so well with architects, that now I mainly work with CAD based technicians and engineers, who do highly serviced buildings like factories and storage facilities.

 

Anyhow, any comments here on my definition - bear in mind, this definition brings in you CGA guys too, because ultimately you are helping the architect to devote some of the building contract money towards design elements, which are timeless and valuable to users of the architecture emotionally and spiritually for along time to come.

 

as professionals architects can be compared to women buying their wardrobe. A woman with a keen dress sense, will probably make here most expensive purchases in a very few 'timeless' kinds of items - long black coats, black skirts, shoes and hand bags. The thing about an architect is knowing were to put that little bit extra into some part of the design which will be timeless and repay the users every day of their lives.

 

While I think the BSt. emphasis has been very good at showing a potential architect how to identify areas of mis-expenditure and 'over' design, . . . . its sucess has not been matched, in identifying areas of a design where 'it is worth spending the money'. . . and standing by your instincts in such matters.

 

The 'budget' for the 'architectural' parts of a building or scheme is always finite, no matter what client you have got. But the architect has the responsibility to put funds in the right places. For example, a new speaker system or aircon system will become redundant, out-of-date or just wear out. Good architecture doesn't.

 

The problem with the Bolton Street course, (where I went) is it is able to pin point areas of poor expenditure very well indeed, but not as good in suggesting ways money can be put to good use in architectural design terms.

 

An example of money well spent in architectural terms can be observed by looking at any shop - sure it costs more to do a plate glass window - but it potentially would will make more sales. But the same could be true of a very simple residential structure, which may have a nice garden which could be appreciated by the occupant more, if the opening was treated/handled as such - yes a bit more expenditure than 'an off the shelf window component' but money put in the right place, and it would be timeless.

 

I have to laugh now, when I see the way even commercial enterprise has grabbed onto this idea, in the form of conservatories and patio doors etc, etc. I just the Bolton Street course had been as enthuasiastic as these vellux's and so forth, in promoting ways to spend 'design money' more wisely. As well as highlighting ways it can be squandered - architectural education in this country still awaits it ying and yang perfect balance.

 

I like the way in which O'Donnell and Tuomey and others have understood the value of external patios or spaces in their designs. Derek Tynan Printworks apartments etc, etc will still be excellent pieces of design in 100 years time.

It was part of my discussion here:

 

http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?s=d46d6b277d9389ec0c2d859a7b3c6dc6&postid=21628#post21628

 

About creating a better centre for architectural education in this country. Ernest, if I have learned one thing here from CG Architect web site, it is not to base my opinion of the profession and CGAs based upon my experience alone, in this tiny island on the verge of the atlantic ocean. I reckon we are all just decendents from the Celts anyhow, and no place else in Europe would tolerate us constantly beating the crap out of one another.

 

Brian O' Hanlon.

[JHalton]

Gareth, Thank you firstly for insulting my fellow members and secondly, thank you for hiding the fact that you did by coming out with your bespoke blah blah at the end. I personally think you should apologise to all the members concered, especially Ernest Burden.

 

I quote from the Rules and regulations of the CGArchitect forums:

 

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Gareth, You continue to be at odds with the goals of the discussion. This has now happend several times. Like I said previously ' You are in the wrong place'. I dont like discussion forums such as say...erm....Apple Macs but you wont see me in there saying their a bunch of idiots because they never graduated on a PC.

 

Gareth, politely, please stop posting 'what you think we are' or 'what you think you are'. We are honestly not interested.

 

Well, until next time no doubt!!

 

To be honest you are actually giving Architects a bad name by blurting on about them all the time. Stop looking for arguments.

 

James

[kid]

I don't want to be an architect or an architectural illustrator.

 

You can all get fkd. :winkgrin:

[Ras]

Wow - so intense!

 

I am an architect. I use 3d modelling in the creative process but I´ll never be able to match the output of the good artists in this forum. I´m saying this to place myself in the discussion.

 

For me it seems logical to comunicate the way Ernest suggests and I do not understand where you are coming from Gareth?

It is obviously a good idea to keep track of whats going on when you are cooperating with someone with a different agenda. Architects and visualisers naturally have different agendas to some degree - nothing wrong with that. Its like in every other field of work - like between architecs and engineers (a classic here in Denmark).

 

I guess everyone here has at valid point hidden somewhere - or else they wouldn´t be involving themselves - in their contributions to this discussion but frankly I´m not getting yours Gareth. It seems so mixed up with very personal feelings and implied views that they are quite difficult to actually decipher for me.

 

How about you (Gareth) try again but this time imagine what others will understand when reading your post. Think of it as a kind of diplomatic imunity and a chance to make amends - cause the mood seems to be turning against you in a major way.

If you have ever had any kind of therapeutic counseling you´d know that you have to express how you feel yourself and why - but abstain from speculating on what motivates the other part to feel something because it is extremely irretating to be told who you are and why you act like you do by someone else who obviously has nothing on you.

 

Trying to put myself in your shoes I can see a lot of valid arguments from your side of the table - they are just not getting across.

 

From your revised post I´d like to be able to understand two things - 1) What relevans does it actually have to the subject? 2) Why are you so emotionally involved in this.

 

As I said - do it with respect of the readers - you are trying to communicate not turn everyone aginst you.

From my point of view (and remember - I´m an architect - what you are doing here is equivelant to making an antisemitic statement at a Bar Mitzva. Who are you talking to?

 

If you manage to turn this around you´ll get a lot of respect - at least from me.

 

[ February 24, 2004, 04:36 AM: Message edited by: Ras ]

[IC]

Temper, temper, John. Some people just want to antagonize.

I think everyone is starting to take Garethace too seriously(most of all himself, by the look of that last post!)

 

Look anyone can do it..........

 

I recently posted a very interesting topic on another website ........blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, Architects......., blah, blah, blah, blah, .......Me, blah, blah, blah, blah, I do......., blah, blah, blah, Architecture......, blah, blah, blah, blah, .......Me, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.(At this point you lose interest and wonder what relevance it has to CGArchitect)

Another 5 paragraphs of blah.

Oh yes, and then a paragraph about 3d visualisation being somewhat of use to someone.

 

Or, to paraphrase:

 

I don't care what you are interested in or do or believe. Look at me-I AM IMPORTANT!

 

 

Uh-oh! I've just realised I'm reacting to it too.

[garethace]

The very unfortunate thing guys, is that I have been posting here as a polite, well mannered individual since this time last year. As you can see I have clocked up quite a few posts, replied to many people and conducted many a civil discussion. Whenever I came across something worthwhile on other places on the web, I have done my best to relay links etc to members here and to Jeff. I have no problem whatsover doing that.

 

What does worry me increasingly about the format of online message boards is this. Since I have started to use an agressive tone with people, suddenly the responses have come flooding in!

 

I mean, doesn't this tell you something about message boards in general? I mean, most of us probably grew up for a large part of our lives without the benefits of any tools like computers or internet - I think Ernest is a person here, who can still remember a time before computers.

 

I am very, very worried myself following the last week or two, to actually notice this interesting phenomena - that a bit of flame baiting online can produce a 64 post thread on the finished work forum here at CG Architect - a record only surpassed by Oceanpic's stills from a movie thread.

 

The rest of the finished work threads are completely dwarfed by my piece of flame baiting - doesn't that make you think?

 

I mean the web forum as a tool to communicate and educate yourself - I have come to the conclusion, cannot be entirely divorced from the concept of online aggression. This calls into question the ability of an online medium to create a useful discussion from posters willing to just talk and discuss things maturely - it highlights the 'immaturity' that seems to lurk at the very heart of this communication format.

 

I really didn't even want to believe this, but so many people here in this country do not want to promote online learning as a format in colleges etc, due to this very important reason. I think this experiment of mine has been all too revealing for all the wrong reasons - as an experiment it has been too sucessful for my liking:

 

Conclusion:

 

Best way to get maximum numbers of replies online is the flame everyone to a crisp!!!! How is that educational?

 

A number of the above replies do mention counselling and so forth - it is my firm believe that online message boards only exist to provide some kind of anonimous anger management class for lots of people involved in them.

 

Lastly, the tone here at CG architect web site is very poor - the only reason that CG visualists come together here at all - is to join together in opposition to architects - in some kind of weird 'envy' gone very wrong, sort of way. Some of the more mature and respected members here need to actually see that and observe the whole online condition they are helping to create here - to take some immediate action to halter that progressing trend.

 

It is not healthy for those younger individuals involved, and breeds negativity which they will suffer from much later on - I think this must be addressed immediately, where some section of the forum is devoted specifically to threads like this one - or anything referring to the 'architectural profession'. That section of the forum should be inhabited by a couple of individuals really interested in promoting the use of 3D Software and computers in general amongst real architects.

 

Not just about a couple of fascist visualist clowns, using architects as their whipping boys and talking about people they know nothing about really. Believe me, enough of this already exists, without your miserable contributions just adding more fuel to the already raging inferno.

 

I spent my life studying architecture and the individuals involved, so if my opinion isn't good enough for you all, then too bad. I do respect, Ernest has a healthy relationship with these professionals too, and I would not question that.

 

As I said, I have made plenty of nice posts in the architecture section of this forum, none of which gained very much response until I began to flame this message board to a crisp. Then I got loads and loads of feed back.

 

If you really wish to do something constructive people, why don't you direct the odd two line post to some discussions in the architecture section. I assure you, I will not try to make fun of anyones opinion, or lord over them with any superior authority at all. I am really not about that.

 

But what this site really does need badly is some kind of intelligent debate about the architecture profession, and not the usual visualist whine and moan. I am just doing my best as an architect to get along with this new technology - that is all.

 

[ February 24, 2004, 05:52 AM: Message edited by: garethace ]

[Iain Denby]

Lastly, the tone here at CG architect web site is very poor - the only reason that CG visualists come together here at all - is to join together in opposition to architects - in some kind of weird 'envy' gone very wrong, sort of way.

Not me!

 

But what this site really does need badly is some kind of intelligent debate about the architecture profession, and not the usual visualist whine and moan

Why? Gareth,this Forum is designed to promote visualisation not architecture.

[Ras]

Hi Gareth

 

I agree that you are usually helpful and serviceminded in the use of the forum. Thats what it is here for...

 

There is of course no question that the CG artists of this forum have apprehensions towards architects and like any other group have a comfortable "we" position going on. Probably many of us here are working very independantly (as in by our selves) and it is nice to meet people here that we have something in common with.

If I was working profesionally as a CG arch viz artist for architects and met someone with your disposition I would have a hard time not noting that as one more pompous architect that thinks he knows it all.

 

Things like this:

 

without your miserable contributions just adding more fuel to the already raging inferno

... show a complete lack of personal insight and isn´t helping anyone at all - least of all youself.

 

Get of it - and for gods sake stop justifying yourself with the post count. You cannot seriously mean that you are doing this for the benefit of this forum - to keep it alive? Who are you to waste everyones time like that? We are posting here because we take you arguments seriously and not because you are some CGarchitect forum mastermind.

 

I was actually trying to soften you up so that you would have a chance of showing yourself from a more reasonable side but like the rest - I´m running out of patience and if you don´t turn it around I´ll be associating you name and avatar with "disillusioned architect with bad temper" like the rest of the crowd - and for f*ck´s sake - I´m an architect.

 

As we all do in our lives you seem to be looking for a confrontation with your inner conflicts... Well, here it is:

By asking Ernest if he is disillusioned because he isn´t an architect like yourself you just display your own lack of self confidence.

Wake up man - anyone can see through you - you are just hurting yourself. I tried to smoothen it out for you but you are really asking for it.

 

Relate to that and move on. Stop antagonizing without a justified cause - this is about you and yourself and not architect and CGartist relationships

 

As a point of deparure we all like you and your contributions -so why have you been doing anything you can to spoil that? And again I´ll say it - there are no hard feelings (I´d guess from anyone) if you can do one post that wraps this thread up in a good way. It takes a big person to say - "woops, my bad!".

Are you a big man Gareth?

 

Another thing... This is an international forum and perhaps your ways of arguing are common in your region but not everyone, including yourself, can relate to them. I´m not saying that Political correctness is especially good but it helps to be aware of the people you are comunicating with.

[nully]

Wow gareth'ace' I've never known anyone say so much and mean so very very little. Doesn't someone as ace as you have anything better to do than upset people?

[kingeldar]

i can't understa,d the meaning of that controversy

 

BECAUSE

 

1 if there was NO architects there wouldn't be no archi viz....

 

2 if there were no archi viz, architects would be in a dirty s***t to ^present their work and develop other works caus ethey would be obliged to spend many time to draw visualisation instead of workin ob architecture....

 

3 many viz here (and anywhere else) came from architecture in the first place....

 

4 do you know ANYONE never complainin about peops giving him instructions & work??

 

so complainin viz will always complain unstead they become painter artists like picasso or someone... architects will always try to get more work from us spending less money... (who thinks a diggerent way in a capitalistic economy? who wants to get less services fro mor money....?)

 

so i don't understand the meaning of that controversy

everybody 's always complaining about work

that's life...

everybody would prefer making just what he loves & want & being very well paid for that

but that's a dream

 

archi or viz got same problem:

client wants more work less charge

seller wants less work more charge....

 

viz are cryin about archi

BUT

archi are always cryin bout Customers who don't understand their architecture or whatever...

customers are cryin a bout ....

and so on

(excuse that bad bad english....)