best import format, layers/blocks

[Ernest Burden III]

I posted this at CGTalk to underwhelming response. I think here is better:

 

Being new to C4D I am nowhere near ready to do all work in it. I use CAD for most models, plus FormZ and Rhino, as I get used to them. I want to bring models into C4D to render, which I do now in Lightscape.

 

But C4D does not use layers and blocks/symbols. Those are how I am 15+ years used to organizing my work. What to do?

 

First of all, what would be the best filetype to import polygon geometry, keeping quads and UV mapping? Sounds like OBJ? DXF keeps quads, but no mapping. Lightwave sounds good, but I can't get FZ to write it well enough yet.

 

Also, what would be the best way to keep objects organized via import? Layers > object, or color number >object? And it looks like I would have to explode all blocks/symbols before sending to C4D, unless there is a way to read them as some sort of instance.

 

I'm looking for organizing principles with the structure of C4D. Some of my models get quite complex.

 

I use 8.5XL + BP2

 

Any help from experienced users would be greatly appreciated, otherwise C4D may remain an expensive hobby.

[STRAT]

hi Ernest

 

i personally import meshes from acad as .3ds files. works perfectly all the time for me. this includes blocks. and personally i import via layers. .3ds retains mapping co-ordinates and material info aslong as it's 1 material to 1 object, ie, no multi or sub materials applied to the same object.

 

i dont know about formZ and rhino is a complete pig for mesh exporting whichever why you cut the mustard, but OBJ seams order of the day there.

see this rhino to c4d thread i started in cgt - http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=121567

 

i'm sure after trail and error you'll find a suitable solution for importing/exprting between c4d and ur other apps and wont just shelve c4d as an expensive hobby.

 

imo it really is worth the transition, even if only for rendering, like i do. as i say, i use .3ds format every time and havent yet suffered transition problems.

 

when you do import into c4d tho, as a matter of course, select each object, and untriangulate the meshes. makes working smoother and easier and a nicerer mesh.

[Ernest Burden III]

i personally import meshes from acad as .3ds files. works perfectly all the time for me. this includes blocks. and personally i import via layers.

As far as I know, 3ds does not support either layers or blocks. I am usually outputting from Datacad which is similar to ACAD, which you use. In ACAD, how do you organize data to export to C4D? By color, layer?

 

Take an example--a room full of tables and chairs. The chair is one symbol, the table another, the table/chairs group another block with the first two nested. Each object has different colors--say several browns for woods and yellow for cusion fabric, white for table cloth, etc. These are all inserted onto layer 'furn01'. How would you treat that to export to C4D?

 

I really appreciate the advice, how you organize your material can be project heaven or eternal hell.

[Frosty]

OKee Ernest. Great questions. As Strat mentioned, and as I'm sure you know, there are many ways to go through the hoops. Here's my hoopology for going from FormZ to Cinema.

 

FormZ file is organized by layer then surface and exported as DXF. My files are broken down such that each FormZ layer will be material group in Cinema. Objects on my FormZ layers are further distinguished by a surface style that will become mapping types in Cinema. Example: A row of round columns - all of the columns are on one layer in FormZ, but each one is coloured seperately. The end result when brought into Cinema, all of the columns will be children of the same parent null (think of this like layers) but can be cylindrically mapped individually. If the columns were all the same surface in FormZ, they can come into Cinema as a single object (this is a Cinema Import preference) - usefull for objects like walls which will be mapped the same way!

 

Give these methods a try. It works great with DXF and should work the same with OBJ.

 

As for your symbols......i dunno what to tell you other than convert them to Cinema and use them there. The block metaphor you described could be duplicated using a Parent Null as the block with the two symbols inside.

[Ace_Face]

It's interesting to see the different methods people use for their workflow. It also sheds light on ways I might improve my methods...

 

1. I use ArchiCAD for most of my modeling and I use export as 3DS to transfer the model. I tend to map simple colors to represent materials and export with "material" translation which will make each material it's own object (layers & material translation makes too many objects to maintain "for me"). The 3DS translation makes a perfect UVW map. If I find that I need to separate some of the objects to make adjustments to the scale of the texture map. I just copy the object and paste it into a new file. Then I delete the polys I want to separate, (repeat the process as necessary) and paste it in again and I have two or more objects ready for material assignment.
    
    
   
2. Nulls are a great way to organize your structure so you don't have to hunt through a huge list of objects.
    
    
   
3. ArchiCAD also uses objects which can be comprised of many different materials. Using material translation separates the polys by material and the objects are themselves irrelevant. If you find that you need the objects to be moved once in C4D, I would export them separately and then you would have that freedom.
   

[Ernest Burden III]

I ask about symbols/blocks because when I tested sending a file to C4D that had blocks and nested blocks I found the result was only ONE copy of each block, and it had lost all XYZ rotations. Not useful.

 

How to handle blocks created in ACAD or similar? In other words, can C4D read a file and have 10 copies of a chair placed randomly about a room, but have it so you can modify ONE and have them all update?

[STRAT]

ah, you mean can you import acad blocks and nestled blocks into c4d, whilst retaining this block info? kinda like importing them as references or instances? yeah?

 

no

 

 

[edit]

you can create instances in c4d, but not import them

[edit]

[Ernest Burden III]

no

you can create instances in c4d, but not import them

Damn! Not what I wanted to hear. But thank you again for the help.

 

My only option is exploding first, then. Or, get more used to working in C4D and send it the first object and do the instancing and positioning IN C4D. Is that what you do with your cars, for example?

[STRAT]

i certainly copy my cars, but why would i want to instance or reference them?

 

no, i individually insert and possition all my cars. i then place all the cars in a NULL OBJECT to group them all together. this way i can treat them as a single object.

 

like with trees, i'll import one and duplicate it a million times all placed in a NULL OBJECT. but i wont instance them. but then, i dont mesh model and i dont do much mesh editing in c4d, mainly just scene setting up and rendering.

(i'll only instance them if i see mass rescaling/shaping will be needed)

 

i do however constantly instance my lights. be lost without it i would.

[Frosty]

I do all my instancing and positioning in C4D as well Ernest. It just seems easier to have my symbols set up and mapped in C4D. We had a plugin discussion going a while back about this. I have a Paul Everrett plugin I helped with that might be of interest.

 

It allows you interactively drag, duplicate and rotate instances of objects throughout your scene. Its great for landscaping and I imagine it would work well for interior furnishings that are somewhat random. The object axis will slide along any mesh or poly, so you can basically drag trees across a hillside or a painting along a wall (even around a corner).

 

Paul never sold this plugin, it was a free dl, but it is no longer on his site. Maxon's PlugIn cafe may have it. "Finger Painter". If you cant find it, I can email Paul and find out if its ok to distribute.

[Ace_Face]

As Strat suggested I also use nulls to group like objects together for quick on off in the view editor. If the Paul Everett plugin is not available, there are some nice built in commands in C4D like the duplicate command, and align to path. This is great for trees and plants as you can have it generate instances and rotate the objects automatically. Then you can tweak the locations for a random effect. You can also arrange them along a spline path.

 

I also place my cars by hand. You can make up some pre defined parking lots sets with cars in rows etc. for quick import. Then just move them around to suit the camera angle.

[jackb602]

Ernest,

 

I use FormZ for modelling and Cinema for everything else. I posted a tutorial on what I think is the best export method on the FormZ forums (http://www.formz.com/forum/general_discussion.html). It's under the Tutorials section and it's called "exporting from FormZ to Cinema 4D." Let me know if you have any questions.

 

Jack

[Ernest Burden III]

I use FormZ for modelling and Cinema for everything else. I posted a tutorial on what I think is the best export method...

Thank you!

 

I will have a look!

[quatermain]

Hi guys.

I am an LW user and evaluating C4D via the v9 demo.

 

Can C4D import models with polygon faces composed of n-gons? I've tried obj, which works with ngons via Maya, but comes in triangulated in C4D v9 demo.

[STRAT]

Hi guys.

I am an LW user and evaluating C4D via the v9 demo.

 

Can C4D import models with polygon faces composed of n-gons? I've tried obj, which works with ngons via Maya, but comes in triangulated in C4D v9 demo.

just hit the "untriangulate" button under the "structure" menu

[Ernest Burden III]

just hit the "untriangulate" button under the "structure" menu

 

Which mean, no, Cinema cannot import the so-called n-gons, but can reconstruct them from the triangle mess that results. In the end, no matter, same result. Besides, it's always best to have your app using data it is comfortable with.

 

I guess n-gons have unlimited sides. In Datacad, I have been able to build with polygons and slabs (extruded thickness) with up to 36 verts including up to 36 'voids' each with up to 36 verts since day one--about 16 years now. But they never exported very well. Autocad had imposed the idea that no polygon should have more than four verts so that became the 'industry standard'. Finally people are learning that it is OK to ignore what Autodeask tells them. Which gets us back to n-gons.

 

I wonder if C really treats one as a complete, contiguous object or, like MAX, it is just hiding the edge lines. It probably does not matter one way or the other.

 

I DL'ed the demo and am hoping to have some time today to play with it.

[quatermain]

Thanks a lot for the information guys.

[schmtzrbuck]

I also use formZ to model everything and C4D to render everything. IMO use the programs to their best strengths. I'm an architect so formZ is a more natural modeler for me than say MAX or MAYA.

 

2 answers to your 2 questions.

 

1 - To export out of formZ to C4D I prefer to use .OBJ file types. I know, another person's preference, but that's what these forums are for. Since I use Cinema for ALL my rendering I don't even bother setting up surface styles or groups in formZ, because I'll just modify them in Cinema anyways. I just model it all and then make a copy of the file where I then start joining forms (create Objects) of similar materials for rendering purposes. So if I have curtainwall on a building I'll just join all the forms that are going to be aluminum for example into one object so when I import it to C4D i just assign a material and then it's aluminum! voila! (note: now if I also have chairs that are aluminum or other pieces of the buildings, I don't include these in the same group as the curtainwall, I'll make groups specific to their needs. Things always change in this field)

So in my duplicate file I just simplify all my forms to material needs and give every new object (joined forms) a specific name so I know what I'm using in C4D. To export in .OBJ format from formZ v.4.2. I've found you have to go into the "transformation" button and have "Swap Y-Z" & "Flip Z" selected for it to come in right. trial and error!

 

2 - I also do all my instancing in Cinema. That came about after I ran into the problem your facing for one and after I realized that Cinema handles instances better IMO. The "Set Instance" plugin is a neccessity as stated previously. Don't give up on C4D! It's an amazing program. And for the money it's the fastest renderer out there!

 

BTW... this is my first post on CGA! I actually specifically searched for your posts Ernest because I really like your work. It's inspired me to dive deeper into Photoshop, and it's good to see you're moving on from Lightscape.