(un)glamorous world of video compression

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

...can i get peoples opinion on video compression format. i have a meeting next week to discuss the format we should establish as our firm standard. the idea is to find one format that:

 

-scales to full screen nicely

-is supported by pc and mac with no additional software installed

-is supported by powerpoint and acrobat

-file size is manageable

-could potentially be emailed (this one could be dropped from the list)

 

years ago i used to mess around with quicktime. i was impressed by sorenson's size and quality. i found myself compressing and re-compressing trying to get decent results, only to waste 8 hours of time. also, quicktime is not supported natively by windows. ..and even with quicktime installed on windows, you still need extra plug-ins to play in powerpoint (on windows). another problem with quicktime is it scales poorly on windows (i.e. full screen playback is horrible).

 

i tried mpeg2. my results were so-so, but it is not supported directly, without installing extra codecs.

 

i tried divx, loved the results, but again, additional software needed, little support for macs, probably not compatible with acrobat on either platform.

 

i tried mpeg4. the results were not as nice as divx, but they were not horrible either. mpeg4 is not natively supported by windows.

 

lately we have been using windows media. really easy to compress, small file sizes are the pros. the cons are.. often buggy on mac, does not work with acrobat, and if memory serves, does not work with powerpoint on mac. another problem with windows media is it is a proprietary format, making it difficult to convert later on.

 

one solution is to write to different formats, but we are trying to find one format that makes all users happy. far fetched? probably.

 

i am thinking about trying some things with avi files, but i am not sure what codecs are best to use with them.

 

anyway, anyone have any input on this subject?

[skogskalle]

BINK (from rad gametools)

 

not sure if this format covers all your needs, but since you didnt mention it, you should check it out.

 

The filesize can be made as small as you wish and I think its pretty good quality / filesize.

 

When you compress a video with BINK it has the option of turning the movie into an .exe file. (with the decompressor in it). So you can play it on any computer without any other movieplaying software or codecs. Havent tried it on MACs but I guess it should work.

 

havent used powerpoint or acrobat, but if its possible to "link" to outside programfiles in those programs that could work too.

 

Its free to try, but since youre using it for commersial stuff they probably want you to pay them something, think its pretty cheap.

 

check it out. http://www.radgametools.com

[3dp]

yes it is unglamorous and more akin to alchemy

as of 2004 because i can never guarantee who is looking it's either a mpeg 1 on cd 640x480 or mpeg2 on dvd @ pal (uk) so if nothing else they can watch it at home sometimes i'll treat them to widesceen shots but only if they are on a recent qt or wmp.

if you're dealing with large companies as i often do divx xvid mpeg4.............. you've not a hope as even the i.t guys unless he watching pirate movies will have heard of them

unless you can guarantee exacltly what the viewing situation is still with the lowest common denominator which i know will degrade the content

and make sure they don;t run full screen at say 1920x1240 and complain a mpeg1 looks a little muddy

so in the end i'd be prepared to write to different formats to cover all bases

[Ernest Burden III]

...can i get peoples opinion on video compression format?

I also am pondering this. I think there are really just 4 to consider right now to meet your criteria:

 

QuickTime Sorrenson

Windows AVI-Indeo5

Microsoft DV

MPEG2 - DVD and CD playback

 

The MS-DV format is great in several ways--no settings! It just works, and compresses very fast in Premiere compared to other formats. The quality is good, but in compressing one of my NPR animations it horizontally broke up a little bit, whereas QT did not.

 

QT is very good. The quality is very good, and the format has the ability to scrub backwards and forwards in a file with ease, the WMP cannot do that very well. I have had a much easier time setting non-4:3 aspects in QT than MS-DV. I actually gave up on MS-DV for a 16:9 anim.

 

Indeo5 has adjustable compression, keyframing, data transfer rates, and is payable on any Windows machine. I think they also play on all Macs but I could be wrong. Not as nice a compress as DivX, but a client won't have to install anything. You are restricted to multiples of 4 I think on the output resolution, otherwise Premiere will refuse to encode the file or explain why.

 

MPEG-2/DVD format is good because of the standardized players, and the ability to address data rates, quality. But the settings can be pretty confusing, best to find an encoding expert or trust the default settings.

 

That's my take on it...

[andymcnair]

interesting article here:

 

http://www.extremetech.com/print_article/0,1583,a=121163,00.asp

 

which benchmarks divx, wmv, quicktime/sorenson & quicktime/mpeg4

 

personally i compress to divx for quality and include an mpeg-1 version on the same CD which should be viewable on any machine.

 

Andy

[muzzy]

I haven't got a chance to try but Macromedia Flash MX Professional 2004 has new video options for Flash players. That might be a solution for your case. Almost everybody has a flash player.

 

http://www.macromedia.com/software/flash/flashpro/video/

[creasia]

Flash is really great for the internet. Flash MX is a good way to go. I have also found a converter that does a pretty good job, that I will be using till I upgrade. It converts a bunch of oher formats as well.

 

Find it here at download.com

 

http://www.download.com/Super-Fever-Link/3000-2194_4-10418057.html?tag=lst-0-2

 

I have had some good results with the Quicktime Mpeg4 compression for my Video. I have however, found some DV compression to be lacking, especially quicktime DV compression.

[landrvr1]

hey CHG,

 

Great thread. I know the temptation is to narrow the deliverable down to one format but perhaps it might be more realistic to select two.

 

Quicktime

Windows Media

 

Quicktime

Perfect for the Mac, and able to work on most PCs. However, I've had many (too many) clients and end users who DO NOT have Quicktime installed on their machines. This is especially true with laptops that are imaged by an IT group, and Quicktime just isn't a priority on PC machines that come out of an IT bench.

 

However, I've never been able to get good quality Quicktime out of Premiere, and keep the file size at a realistic level. I spoke for an hour on the phone with an excellent Adobe tech who basically said that the wonderful quality/excellent compression features are really only available with Quicktime Pro. The new H.264 compression is an excellent example. That puppy can get EXCELLENT quality video at incredibly low file size....just not out of Premiere or any other editing program except something for Mac only. Quicktime Pro apparently has a feature that allows you to import something else (.avi, for instance) and then convert to Quicktime H.264 with the full compression features.

 

(a good example of this are those trailers over at the Quicktime site). Those are all of incredible quality, yet have extremely low file sizes in order to stream. Try getting that kind of amazing quality out of Premiere. If anyone can, I'd love to know your settings!)

 

I'm going to pick up the Pro version of Quicktime and start playing with it soon.

 

Hence...

 

Windows Media File

My favorite, bar none. Incredible compression and remarkable quality. Probably won't play on a Mac, but covers at least 99.9% of my clients and end users. There was talk of color not being very good, but I've never found that to be the case. I've tweaked my Premiere settings to get astounding quality with low file sizes.

 

Both of those formats are idiot proof. I wouldn't touch the Divx stuff, or any other 'boutique' format, with a 10 foot pole. Divx, DV, etc etc. All of the fringe formats usually require very specific media players - something that clients just can't be bothered with.

 

mpeg2-DVD is really something I'd only use for DVD production. The .m2v file that's created will simply not play in most players, and you'll need a separate sound file anyway.

 

mpeg2 is very good as well. .mpg files work great, but the real creative development in excellent compression is coming from the Quicktime and WMV side.

 

Just my 2cents. I'm no video expert by any stretch, but have had to learn a lot in the past couple of months!

[AJLynn]

Of the formats mentioned, the only ones that work with no extra software on Mac and PC and MPEG1 and MPEG2. Neither of those meet all the criteria, or are as good as the newer options, so I'm afraid you're a bit out of luck - I don't see how to do this without changing the citeria to "no extra software a reasonable person can't be reasonably expected to download for free".

 

If you do that, it opens up Quicktime and WMV, though WMV is pretty crappy on Macs, even worse on Intel Macs, without a Quicktime plugin that does cost money. A bit more on the fringe is Xvid, but it does give you great quality and VLC, which plays it, is free on all the platforms I can think of, and if you have ffdshow or Xvid installed on a computer Xvid will work in Powerpoint.

[landrvr1]

Of the formats mentioned, the only ones that work with no extra software on Mac and PC and MPEG1 and MPEG2. Neither of those meet all the criteria, or are as good as the newer options, so I'm afraid you're a bit out of luck - I don't see how to do this without changing the citeria to "no extra software a reasonable person can't be reasonably expected to download for free".

 

If you do that, it opens up Quicktime and WMV, though WMV is pretty crappy on Macs, even worse on Intel Macs, without a Quicktime plugin that does cost money. A bit more on the fringe is Xvid, but it does give you great quality and VLC, which plays it, is free on all the platforms I can think of, and if you have ffdshow or Xvid installed on a computer Xvid will work in Powerpoint.

 

Forgot about the Powerpoint requirement. I've had limited success in getting Quicktime movies to play consistantly within Powerpoint. Has anyone found a fullproof method that works? I can get it to play once, but it requires setting it up again from scratch each time before playing.

 

How reliable is the ffdshow for Xvid in Powerpoint? I can't find much info on it....

[AJLynn]

To be honest I'm not sure whether it was ffdshow or Xvid that was doing the work when I was using it that way, but I'm 99% sure that Powerpoint is Directshow compliant and works with filters like ffdshow. If not, Xvid is also free.

[manta]

I always give 3 options...WMV, quicktime (sorenson 3) and FLV...

I don't use H.264 compression because you have to have the latest quicktime player to see anything, so if someone does happen to have quicktime on their computer, it might not be the newest one...

[Mario Pende]

For avi. try CineForm Aspect. Quality is superb!

For mov. try Sorneson

[RyanSpaulding]

I really like pumping out full quality DIVX avi's and then using Microsoft's Windows Media Encoder (free) to change it into a WMV. Compression seems good and is low in file size.

[Mario Pende]

So your compresing it 2 times?!

Seems like a lot of quality loss!

[landrvr1]

I would love for some of you guys to post your Quicktime Sorenson settings (from Premiere, if you're using it).

 

I've been able to get quality as good as .wmv, but only at a file TWICE the size!

 

My output size is always 864x480, and Sorenson just seems to fall apart unless I get the bitrate up to silly levels.

[manta]

I would love for some of you guys to post your Quicktime Sorenson settings (from Premiere, if you're using it).

 

I've been able to get quality as good as .wmv, but only at a file TWICE the size!

 

My output size is always 864x480, and Sorenson just seems to fall apart unless I get the bitrate up to silly levels.

 

Why is the file size such an issue ??

[landrvr1]

Why is the file size such an issue ??

 

The main reason is that my animations are targeted almost exclusively for PC viewing, and usually my clients will be downloading the animation file. It's unrealistic to expect someone to download anything over a 200MB, 5min animation. People are already shocked and somewhat dismayed by that file size, and increasing the amount would be unthinkable.

 

I'll often author a DVD as well, but many times there are as many as 20 people that may need to view the animation and downloading is the best way to quickly reach a wide group.

 

Isn't file size always an issue? haha.

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

another thing to consider is how the user is going to be viewing the animation on their computer. i am guessing at that size, they are viewing it as a standalone animation in the viewer it was encoded for use with. the reason i bring this up, windows media player full screens nicely. quictime does not, and i am not even sure it is capable of going full screen unless it is the pro version. this is the way it is on the Windows, but it might be different on the Mac.

 

Divx, Xvid, and Flash fullscreen nicely on Windows also.

[landrvr1]

another thing to consider is how the user is going to be viewing the animation on their computer. i am guessing at that size, they are viewing it as a standalone animation in the viewer it was encoded for use with. the reason i bring this up, windows media player full screens nicely. quictime does not, and i am not even sure it is capable of going full screen unless it is the pro version. this is the way it is on the Windows, but it might be different on the Mac.

 

Divx, Xvid, and Flash fullscreen nicely on Windows also.

 

Very true about the Quicktime fullscreen.

 

I'm getting into little details now, but one thing that I like about Quicktime is that the player always seems to open up at the exact resolution of the file it's playing. The viewer can adjust later, but it starts out at 100%. This isn't the case with Windows Media Player. It's entirely dependent upon whatever settings the viewer has.

 

This is a quality issue, really. It means that some folks will have my movies at either too large or too small a window when viewing the .wmv, and that just bugs me. I had a client call and say "Hey, this looks like crap!". I stopped over and his Windows Media Player was set on full screen as default!

 

There's lots to love about Quicktime, but I often find that on Windows it just seems a bit....sluggish. There's times when it gets kinda wonky; especially during scrolling.

 

So CHG, have you come to any conclusions so far? I'd love to hear where you're leaning on this.

[AJLynn]

Can you just make two versions and link to both?