Spongebob Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Hey all, I know we don't talk about boring, old construction documents much, but this seems to be a hot topic lately. My company bought 20 seats of ADT about two years ago and still they sit in boxes collecting dust. My CAD manager (moron) assumed the switch from Softdesk 8 would be a relatively easy one. He was wrong. When he discovered just how much work was involved and how little he knew about actually producing drawings he backed off. Ever since then he has been "too busy" to work on it. Once everyone else saw what his reaction was they were afraid to learn such a vastly different program. I find that I am like a kid in a candy store when around new software. As soon as I found a way to smuggle a copy past the bosses, I ate it up. I spent about a year learning all that I could without actually having the approval to apply it to a big job. Now I am confident enough with the software that I am teaching it (ADT 3.3) at the local community college. Now that times are slow.....eh-hem let me try that again....Now that times are slooooooooooow for us architects, everyone is suddenly interrested in switching to a parametric model builder for construction documents. However, it seems the majority of the office is leaning towards Revit. Arrrrrrgggghhh!! Is all my time wasted? Do I have to re-live the past year only this time digging into Revit? Mainly I am just being very long-winded in asking...... Has anyone here made the switch from AutoCAD or ADT to Revit? If so, was it a good decision? Any regrets? Thanks, Spongebob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dollus Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 Maybe that '(moron)' CAD manager knew something you didn't. It has been known for quite some time that Autodesk planned on replacing ADT with Revit. That said, time spent learning new skills is never wasted in my opinion. You can build off of the ADT methodology and apply that to learning new techniques within Revit. In two years, Revit won't exist either, so just roll with it. John D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spongebob Posted January 15, 2003 Author Share Posted January 15, 2003 If AutoDesk tells the industry to jump, it doesn't mean it will. Telling thousands of people that they have to re-learn how to draw may not be well received. My cad manager knew alot about AutoCAD about ten years ago and I don't think he has done any working drawings since then. He is far behind in the times and refuses to admit it. I am the one who first informed my cad manager about AutoDesk's decision. I can only assume that you are also a cad manager and took my comment as an insult to his profession and ultimately you. I can assure you that was not my intention and I am sorry if you took it as that. As for the actual question I have posted, I welcome any informed responses. Spongebob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wojciech Klepacki Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 Hi, Autodesk has very strong position on drafting programs market. It is similar to Microsoft in operating systems world. They can afford to produce some annoying aplications, without looking at the clients needs. As always it's good time to sit and wait. After a few months we will see if the new product gain a success or it won't. I'm an architect and drafting plans, sections, etc is my primar job. I can do it mostly in AutoCAD. When I need some additional effect I turn to Illustrator or Photoshop, they both work fine with AutoCAD. I don't need "inteligent" building as in ADT or Revit. That is only my personal opinion and as a freelance architect I can always choose to buy or not to buy ) rgds, Wojciech Klepacki P.S. Once (when I was a student) I bought Softdesk 8 - it was my worst life decision (except my first wife). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mottle Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 LOLOLOLOLOL! P.S. Once (when I was a student) I bought Softdesk 8 - it was my worst life decision (except my first wife). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sawyer Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 HMM, This is interesting to me because I am trying to get my firm to merge in Revit. At another firm we worked in ADT2 and I really hated it. (Well for some things at least I think they let their standards drop pretty low for programing ADT.) But at the same time I really believe in the future of smart programs like Revit or ADT. I have taken the Revit tour and I really liked it. Unlike ADT it took minutes to learn not days or months. But I have not done working drawings with it. Yet. Good luck. I hope you post more info as your story progresses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigcahunak Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 Ok. Here is me jumping into this conversation, as I was doing lots of thinking about this topic. There are two ways of making architectural construction drawings: Draw them all (plans, elevations , sections, tables...)Have a smart program do it there are lots of CAD apps out there claiming to "DO IT ALL" for us. But, I think that the only way to go about this "DO IT ALL" for us is the parametric way (REVIT, ARCHICAD, ALLPLAN...). The others (including autocad) are faliing into my first category. For construction drawings, autocad is no more then a digital drafting table. I believe that as generation of architects will change, and architectural firms leaders will be those who learned Word, Excel and such in 1st grade, only then we'll see the reall change in the relationship between computers and the architectural practice. Seriously, having so many turn arounds in a single proffesion in a lifetime is too much. Not only switching to computers, but now its a whole new approach with this computer. I think that parametric design programs is the future. They are relatively young, and even someone who knows one really good, often finds himself strugling on a view or a detail. As those apps will mature, they will be the only way to design, but mainly produce. My first CAD system was DataCAD (version 5.0) which promissed to be as such (which it wasnt). Now after dissapointing from ADT as well, I'm seriously looking at Revit and Archicad. I believe that you were right about your CAD manager, but it wasn't strictly his fault, as back then (4 years), Autodesk didn't know they will end up buying Revit. Nowadays, even though they say they "will protect their client investment..." I know they wont be developing ADT for too long, slowly kill it, and will make Revit as their main Arch tool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerry Thompson Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 Hi All I know in New Zealand, there is a major push by AutoDesk towards Revit. In this market, ArchiCAD is very popular because it is marketed as “easy to use” – and it is (as well as being relatively cheap – ArchiCAD has gone into sites here for $US2,000 a copy where as raw AutoCAD cost around $US4,500). But to move past the “cookie cutter” architectural results with ArchiCAD requires as much effort as applying any other system and I think this will also go for Revit. ADT is a very powerful and flexible system but difficult to learn for most users, especially those used to a paper based CAD methodology. One has to think quite differently from using AutoCAD/paper based processes and in a world where many users still do not understand how to apply xref file concepts, ADT is in a very different space. Once one understands the concepts behind ADT, the program opens up tremendous possibilities. Revit, on the other hand is more approachable and “easy to learn” compared to ADT but limited unless one is prepared to really “learn” it. It is possible to build a “Revit type” system with ADT, using lisp and VB to define procedures and methods etc. but Revit will not construct an ADT. Revit is as much a defined process as a modelling tool whereas ADT is a tool box with little process - hence its power and flexibility but difficulty in application. The fact that ADT runs on AutoCAD also means that many users fall back to AutoCAD when the going gets slightly tough - leaving ADT in the cold. As far as parametrics in Architecture is concerned, I do not feel that Architecture is that parametric – parts of it definitely are but the overall process is complex in terms of tangible and intangible issues. There is also a role for sculpture, being arbitrary and doing things because they look good or feel good – qualities that are difficult to role up in a parametric definition so we need tools that combine both worlds. My hope is the concepts in all four technologies – ADT, Revit, Viz and Architectural Studio will combine more together in the future but, as mentioned above, AutoDesk is the “Microsoft” of CADD so they can do virtually what they like. All comments are welcome. Kerry Thompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Griger Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 Originally posted by bigcahunak: I think that the only way to go about this "DO IT ALL" for us is the parametric way (REVIT, ARCHICAD, ALLPLAN...). The others (including autocad) are faliing into my first category. For construction drawings, autocad is no more then a digital drafting table. [iMHO]Yep, yep. FlatCAD is dying just like drawing by hand is pretty much a dead tool for doing CD's nowadays. ArchiCAD's been doing the parametric thing for 20 years now. Revit's bravado and hype [not completely unfounded on their part] brought this idea back into the mainstream's attention enough for AutoCAD to gobble them up. The many things that are automated by these programs enable quick changes and minimize oversights that FlatCAD can’t compete with. Add that the parametric programs can also export for a rendering program’s use and FlatCAD is DOA. ADT is your old girlfriend who is now "just a friend" and will quickly be yesterday's news, long forgotten and beyond any usefullness. The parametric Architectural programs mentioned by bigcahunak, with hopefully new additional players in the market to turn up the heat, will be the future tool of necessity for the not so distant future architects. [/iMHO] For what it's worth... Paul [butting in on your topic] Griger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wojciech Klepacki Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 Hi, If u need some specific "itelligent" objects like they are in Revit, ADT or ArchiCAD u can use them of course... if u like. But we r talking about 3D models being exported to Viz/LS or the others. Sometimes I need to make a restoration plans like this one: http://www.cgarchitect.com/forum/filepush.asp?file=parter.jpg The best way to make it is to do it in AutoCAD LT and than export and colour it in Illustrator. This is my way. In Poland people don't use ADT or the others parametric programs becouse of: 1) the price 2) very strong AutoCAD position on the market 3) overall costs of training and "tailoring" to fit the needs 4) our architects need to exchange drawing with other engineers and they often (99% of cases) use AutoCAD Personally I don't belive in automatic 3D model production. rgds, Wojciech Klepacki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigcahunak Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 Originally posted by Wojciech Klepacki: Hi, If u need some specific "itelligent" objects like they are in Revit, ADT or ArchiCAD u can use them of course... if u like. But we r talking about 3D models being exported to Viz/LS or the others. Sometimes I need to make a restoration plans like this one: http://www.cgarchitect.com/forum/filepush.asp?file=parter.jpg The best way to make it is to do it in AutoCAD LT and than export and colour it in Illustrator. We were talking about construction drawings for building proposes, not selling plans, presentation plans, or any other showing kind of plans. IMHO parametric apps aren't good for rendering proposes. they have too many polys in them, and carry lots of unneeded data. Once exported from such a program, you'll need to do lots of cleaning before the file will be efficent to work on in VIZ for instance. In Poland people don't use ADT or the others parametric programs becouse of: 1) the price 2) very strong AutoCAD position on the market 3) overall costs of training and "tailoring" to fit the needs There are always slower and faster places to follow technology. Eventually they all do. If the rest of the world will work in, say archicad, Poland won't stick with autocad forever. Also, what if a new tool improves your productivity? Whats the price difference between regular autocad and ADT? 4) our architects need to exchange drawing with other engineers and they often (99% of cases) use AutoCAD No problems. Architects and Engineers need to exchange drawings in other parts of the world as well. Go to autodesks' website, and download latest object enabler (I believe its version 3.31). With this installed on a machine that has just plain autocad, you can open and work on any DWG file that was created with ADT, MDT... and has ARX objects in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wojciech Klepacki Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 Hi bigcahunak, We were talking about construction drawings for building proposes, not selling plans, presentation plans, or any other showing kind of plans Hmmm... u didn't uderstand me. Attached example is a part of restoration plan. As u can see it contains colour data wich is needed for proper clarks in provincial office. There r construction drawings needed as well... (All of them were done in AutoCAD). I would like to say that nowadays thers is no one good program to solve all drafting and modeling problems. There are always slower and faster places to follow technology I assure u that it is NOT a question of following the technology. We do in Poland use the same soft as u in Israel or Canada but the specfic of market is different. I've been working in architecture business for more than 10 years. I had to cooperate with various offices all over Poland, France, Germany, Russia, and the others. They USE in 99% pure AutoCAD. I do agry with u that parametric data contains lot of info when u import it into Viz. Personally I don't use any additional modeling soft except AutoCAD but u have to know that: 1) cost is to heavy to handle 2) in most cases programs won't work the way the demo shows 3) why use them if I can do the same with the tools I own? rgds, Wojciech Klepacki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbarnesarc Posted October 8, 2004 Share Posted October 8, 2004 In regaurds to that initial question I would have to say Revit in the Global sense. It wasn't a waste to spend all that time learning ADT. It has a far steeper learning curve as does ACAD. I know ACAD 2d and 3d, Archicad, & Rhino. My perspective is that you can never have too many tools in the belt. "Knowledge is power" The more you know, the more of an asset you become. I have been with my current firm six months now and didn't know Revit at all before starting here. I did know Archicad though, which helped in the logic of "Parametirc modeling" or whatever label you want to give it. This would help your transition from ADT to Revit. It is far easier than ADT, in my opinion to learn. I can pretty much get anyhing accomplished that I need done at this point. We (our office) are working on several big buildings on one main street. I have them all modeled individually and "linked" into an overall site model. My point is this, I have been only using Revit 6 months and have modeled 5 different buldings totalling over 500 sf. I love it with a few excpeptions as with ANY program. I recomend it. I was backing Archicad for the past few years, but I feel that Revit is far superior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onslaught Posted October 8, 2004 Share Posted October 8, 2004 ahhh yes, the never ending story of which one is better.........AutoCAD, ReVit, AchiCAD, etc., etc....................... Makes you wonder how they survived without these applications before. Drawing by hand, blueprinting, manual rendering. Technical pens, airbrush, water color. Those where the days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_stafford Posted October 9, 2004 Share Posted October 9, 2004 ...In two years, Revit won't exist either, so just roll with it...It's almost been two years...still here...stronger than ever. I for one, am glad you were wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard McCarthy Posted October 11, 2004 Share Posted October 11, 2004 Hi Bob! First of all I thought this one should be in the Autodesk Revit Forum (scroll down to CAD sofware section... please post thread to relevent section) [Edited] Ops, I just re-read the thread and realise it's posted in Jan 2003. Long before Revit forum is created. My apology. The thread can probably still be moved to Revit forum. Now, To answer your question... Yes, I think everyone will experience that feeling atleast couple of times in his life..... I too have to learn CAD when I have master hand drafting..... trueSpace to 3DSMAX.... autoCAD to Revit We live to learn. But I do feel the technology is been push out ever faster now that I felt I hardly have enough time to absorb the information I needed (take rendering technology for example)... maybe one day we (human) will simply not be able to keep up with the advance of technology at all... But I can assure you, that you will find Revit VERY easy to learn. This is particularly true since I tried ADT 3.3 years ago and I couldn't get it. That is one horrible program to learn I must say haha, but if you have the determination, and the intelligence to even master that program on your own, I am SURE that you can pick up Revit in NO TIME (probably less than 3 days)...Personally, I found as soon as I understand the basics (which is under 10 minutes), I say to myself this is it. It's quite a intuitive program, but I must say a lot of other long time autoCAD user have some trouble switch over because of their habit with previous package (particularly .. ADT) As Bruce Lee once said... "To learn, you must empty your cup..., you can't learn with a full cup" I can assure you, that Revit is a huge step forward, and you won't regret it. If you need any help, just come to the Revit forum and ask PS. it's been almost 2 years now, any update on your progress in learning Revit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard McCarthy Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 It's almost been two years...still here...stronger than ever. I for one, am glad you were wrong. Hahaha, true Well Revit is now going to be better than ever, with the new release of v7.0. I am really looking forward to it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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