MicroStation

[STRAT]

Hi fellas

 

Out of all the cad/3d apps out there the 1 i'm almost completely unfamilier with is microstation. I'm certainly well aware of it and it's reputation, particulaly in the archi/engineering market place but thats basically how far my knowlege gos.

 

It's a big boy on the block and has been around allot longer than most of todays apps, but little is said of it.

I've a couple of aquantancies who use it but they have mixed reations.

It's a one stop app. Cad through to presentation rendering (like ArchiCAD tries to be).

 

Is there someone here who can enlighten my knowlege further?

 

I'm curious to know how good it is/isn't. It's strengths/weaknesses. Is it expensive? Is it fast? It's compatability with other apps, it's rendering quallity, learning curve, stability/usability etc etc etc...

 

Why isn't it more prominent? is it still being developed? does it do animations, does it do radiosity/GI? that type of thing.

 

i went to the webpage but thats a bit crappy really.

 

Any seasoned user of it here fill me in i'll be greatfull

 

[ November 16, 2002, 07:45 AM: Message edited by: STRAT ]

[kid]

I'm no seasoned user but I spent 3 months on it a few summers ago. It's feels pretty similar to AutoCad with 2d drafting. Things I found lacking (coming from Autocad) was it support for blocks and no PaperSpace/ModelSpace, so setting up page layouts was a bit more tedious, and no X-Ref either. Version 8, or whatever the latest is, may have addressed these areas. The 3D modelling side might be good but I didn't get much opportunity to play with that, I was a cad-monkey. The latest release has radiosity, don't know how good it is.

 

I thought Microstation was a big player in Europe and UK, I'm surprised you've had such little contact with it.

[ingo]

Hi STRAT, i guess you talk about Microstation, not Miscrostation

 

as i remember it from 3 years ago, well its great. Its more compatible to AutoCAD files than AutoCAD itself (it can read and write AutoCAD files) and its of course similar to AutoCAD.

The biggest advantage are the reference file system, you can work with MStation like working with transparent paper. You work for example on the groundfloor and your mate next to you works on the first floor, so you can over the network lay his file underneath yours and he can lay your file behind his work. So everyone knows what the other works on.

Another great thing is the cursor that allows you to work accurate in 3D space, a very nice feature.

It has several addons like Triforma for parametric architectural work like ArchiCAD....

Its definitly a great package, you found it in most really large offices, like NBBJ in Seattle, or Bechtel engineers use it across the world, and of course Foster, Rogers in London... and its definitly superior to Autocad, no wonder, they (Bentley) have to fight against a large monopolist.

Thats what i remember from a few years ago. If you know about a presentation, its well worth a look.

 

HTH

 

ingo

[mark johnson]

I’ll have to agree with you Ingo

 

Here’s a few things I’ve gotten for my using of microstation

 

I've used microstation for over 6 years. And Autocadd for close to three years. And I would say that Microstation to me is far better than any other cadd program I’ve worked on. Plus it user friendly. I don’t have to take my hand of my mouse as often to key in commands.

 

Microstation started out as a program used by nasa and other big engineering firms. Both the renovation and rebuilding on the Pentagon is being use in Microstation. MS 3d file sizes are extremely small as compared to AutoCAD’s 2d file sizes.

 

The cursor (or Accudraw) in Microstation 3d can change orientation to x, y, z, without you having to change view ports. All you have to do to change accudraw's view orentation is punch key's "f"(front) "s" (side) "v"(view) or "t"(top. it's that easy. The screen itself doesn't change unless you want it to, just the the cursor dynamically rotates to the specific position you want it to. As the pentagon is being worked on, a 100 page prescriptive standard spec book was reduced down to just two pages.

 

Instant interior and exterior elevation and sections can be generated from the 3d application. As a matter of fact, when an intelligent 3d model is drawn, and you edit it and the 2d automatically updated itself.

 

The x-ref in microstation is an extremely powerful tool. You can even self-reference or self x-ref the active file you’re currently working on into itself sound strange but true.

 

The reason I’m stressing the 3d version is because with the special view control using accudraw you'll rarely use the 2d version of Microstation. Microstation is somewhat like the Apple computer of cadd programs, You know it really good. It is compatible with other cad programs like Mackintosh is compatible with other pc’s program etc. It’s faster, the 3d version has smaller file sizes. Both 2d and 3d of microstation has seamless transitions

Stay tunes I will soon post some 3d renderings of some work I’ve done..

[kid]

It has X-reffing? I worked in an office over a summer break a few years ago and I had never used Microstation so the guy there spent a day running through stuff and he didn't mention X-refs at all. He said you had to reinsert the updated drawing every time.

 

Was I given bogus information?

[Chris_A]

They are called 'References' in MS rather than an 'X-Refs' and I think the ability has been in MS longer than AutoCAD but I could be very wrong. The button driven interface that came in with ACADr13 had been part of Microstation years before. No 'Blocks' but 'Cells' which actually will reside in a 'Cell Library' external of the design file, usable by any other file. Reference files are 'clipped' or 'masked' individually rather than cutting holes in paper space. Hey, and the version of Microstation you bought in 1993 will still open the latest file until the introduction of the V8 file format last year (they had to do it sometime). They improved the app without forcing customers to deal with file incompatability, a big issue whey you have 100 or 300 seats to purchase in a big firm.

 

As ingo says, it's mostly used in large or multi-disciplinary firms. It's rare in small shops or one-man operations but I know of a few. The big firms rely on it's file referencing, ability to handle large projects (smaller file sizes and better with the big ones) and powerful symbology controls (more consistant look to documents).

 

FWIW Bentley is a privately held company from Exton, PA USA. They have a very different business culture than the otherCAD which might be part of why you don't hear so much noise from them.

 

The 3D side is really quite good. The cool thing is that you can model, render, animate and draft the document set in the one application. No switching between, having to learn, or *buy* multiple apps.

Raytracing and radiosity have been integrated for about 5 years (since 'J'). Particle Tracing (their photon mapping tech) has huge potential as well and has been in for a little more than a year. PT solutions are view independant similar to LS. Keyframed and function driven animation is there as well. It's got most of what a project team needs, not necessarily a high-end viz group.

 

Kid, sounds like they didn't know much about it, or didn't think to tell you.

 

Note: I'm not an employee of Bentley, sales rep, or pitch-man and never have been, just a pretty much satisfied, recent user.

[dannyc]

Hi all

Good to see some other Microstation users in amongst there. Generally agree with what's been mentioned so far. An enourmously powerfull package. Expensive though. A full seat must be well over $4000. Annoyingly it seems even more expensive in the UK, over £4000 (better check on those). To keep up to date you have to become a "select subscriber", at around a $1000 a year! Oumf!!!!! Not for occasional use really. It is though an immensly powerfull app. You're probably not really getting the benefit of the full features unless you working on quite large projects (particularly when collborating with other firms/consultants). Potentially it can do top quality visualisation stuff, there are some examples somewhere on the web site. As mentioned it does have Radiosity, environment mapping and the like. The animation tools are adequate for it's intended purposes. As an AEC CAD app it is in a lot of ways as good as pretty much anything out there, for the range of features and potential power.

Drawbacks (my personal opinion)...... I found it a real pig to learn, not so user friendly at all, the web resources and training stuff is a bit patchy, it's still a bit heavy on the "technical" terminology and abbreviations (B-trees and file paths, all sorts of different formats for different parts of the app). .....In plain language please!!!!!!.

certainly a step up from regular autocad. Haven't used ADT so that might be more on par with it. I'd say genrally it would more that hold it's own against regular autocad (14) and 3D studio Viz. Though the animation isn't anything like the level of full 3D studio Max.

"The 3D side is really quite good. "

Well, I kind of agree, but not entirely. definitely when dealing with polygons, Accudraw and the range of editing and creation tools is pretty top notch and allows you to move along quite quickly. I did have a problem with the solids and advanced curves sort of stuff. Though this was probably quite affected due to the fact that this was with SE on a Mac G3. Any kind of booleans and stiching was very unstable, slow unclear as what to do next. To the point of making it unuseable. I've used J a fair bit at work on the PC, but really only for 2D. They haven't really got to grips with 3D (or even see the point some of it, alas!). I'm about to put together a nice powerfull athlon with an ATI 8800. I'm seriously hoping this will make the 3D solds/surfaces aspect of things a lot more useable.

Any views on V8? What bits I've gathered indicate that it is a worthwhile upgrade. I'm trying to hold off for another 6 months or so before I bother ($1000). If it's noticeably better then I might go for it sooner. How do you feel it compares to Form Z for the 3D?

briefly then, as a high end AEC CAD tool, it's definitely up there. For visualisation though, I wouldn't thought it was worth getting purely for such purposes. It can produce more than adequate renderings and animations. But won't offer you anything that you can't get (and a lot more) from the kind of apps I'd guess most people are already using: Max, Lightwave, C4D, and so on.

Anyone there using it for full renderings/presentationas well as the CAD stuff? I've done a few things and was sort of well on my way to getting to grips with the so called 3D single building model/file. Though I had to put that on the back burner for a while as work requirements were focused on other things for quite a bit. I'm now looking to get that back up and running and implemented. Still a few little glitches and tweeks need smoothing out though. Any commments? I'd be glad to hear them.

Cheers

[Chris_A]

Hello dannyc

 

Version 'J' eclipsed SE as far as the 3d workings so it's not an equal comparison. Solids and booleans were much improved which may address some of your issues. The 'TriForma' tools add even more to the AEC toolbox. IMO I still like FormZ for general modeling unless you are working with a group and the file referencing would be beneficial or you are generating documents.

 

V8 is a worthy purchase. The change in file format and other setup adjusments will be something to look at but are probably outweighed by the gains (such as DWG compatability).

 

MS can handle presentation images and animation. While the result won't be quite as nice as the other rendering options it's a matter of the users grasp of the tool. I've created and seen some very nice renders. Take a look at Bentley's Viz Gallery

[STRAT]

cheers guys

 

i'm allot more awhere of it now. i guess its rendering engine isn't to be sniffed at either if latest cga gallery submitant cobus bothma is anything to go by:

 

http://www.cgarchitect.com/gallery/image_spotlight.asp?fileName=huisb1

[foxlee]

Strat ,I,ve just been looking at Cobus's images as well and it almost seems to have a Lightscape quality to them and i must agree it seems a lot better than a lot of other add-on radiosity and GI

renderers that i have seen.I must say I saw work by another South African company last night, called tectonics or something, i was totally blown away by the quality, a full animation with radiosity etc.I want to post images if I can find them.I get the feeling they're also using microstation.Just wondering how fast raytracing and rendering is in Microstation compared to the rest.

[dannyc]

Hello

Thanks. Good to get further confirmation for V8. Just a question of finances regarding when I actually get it. Good to hear tha the 3D side of "J" is an improvement over SE. I've got "J" here but have to finish building this PC. Might take a couple of days yet as this is my first PC build project and I want to double check everything before I start using it. Hopefully all will be ok. I would like to use it in conjunction with EI Universe. I'll have to check the situation with regard to import/export options but I gather it can eventualy be done without too many problems. Will try to post some results ovet the next few weeks.

Cheers

[kainoa]

Hey guys, I posted this question in the ACAD discussion here, and i saw this thread so i thought id give it a try here. TIA!

 

Has anyone tried converting DWGs to DGNs with Microstation v8? I need to find the best/correct way to convert a bunch of dwgs (created in ADT3). All the dwgs have xrefs also. I couldnt find a good tut on the web.

Thanks again!