chuck Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 hi everyone, i've just graduated with my bachelors in architecture and started a job at a firm. right now i'm doing everything from website design to elevations and renderings. i'd like to start a business on the side, as it seems that the detroit area lacks a bit in quality renderings. for you who have a business do you have any tips you wouldnt mind sharing? i'd probably purchase viz and go from there. $1800 doesnt sound bad to me...low overhead... my main concern is how to get firms to recognize a new business. i'm looking at mailing flyers/CD's with my portfolio. i also thought of doing a rendering for free just to get my foot in the door, but worry about watering down the field in general, and then not being taken seriously. maybe an introductory offer? i have no idea how to set up a fee structure. anyway, thanks for any help, chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 I also thought of doing a rendering for free just to get my foot in the door Don't do that. You will have to do some 'free' work to get a portfolio together, but that should be it. Either you can handle professional work or you cannot. If the first, you should be paid, if the second, you should not be saying you can. You already have the most important skill, you can understand 'archispeak'. Do the promotional stuff you mentioned, and follow up with people. The hardest part will probably be estimating the time it will take to do a rendering, and then fitting the work into your 'I already have a day job' schedule. Rendering IS my day job, and often my night job as well...and what I do on weekends between my kids soccer and visits to the supermarket... In other words, you have to be careful not to over-commit and then not be able to deliver what you said you could do. It's one thing to be largely unproven, it's another to have proven yourself un-reliable. Good luck, and post some work for comments, if you like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck Posted May 28, 2004 Author Share Posted May 28, 2004 thanks for the advice ernest, i stumbled on the "up close" articles about starting up a cg business. the things you find when you search.... anyway, i attached a few pics. around here no one knows what radiosity is. not that all projects would require it....timeline etc. i really need to get a few good exterior shots together- it seems to me thats where a lot of the need is. i'd like to have a first client by october. here's what i'd be going up against: http://www.studio4d.net thanks again, chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 here's what i'd be going up against: http://www.studio4d.net Oh, my. 90% of the people on this board could beat that, so you probably can as well. Their website has the same smell as their work. BUT...even though the renderings themselves are not well done, that firm has decent management of large-scale projects, has proper entourage in place, does decent composition. You will need all of that. Radiosity or no, a bad composition still sucks. Read some older books on rendering--traditional media stuff, for lessons on composition. I would say that is the #1 problem I see with work posted here on CGA. And read and re-read the David Wright articles, they are great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Homeless Guy Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 Read some older books on rendering--traditional media stuff, for lessons on composition. I would say that is the #1 problem I see with work posted here on CGA. would you mind throwing us a bone, and recommending a couple of your favorites. relation or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 would you mind throwing us a bone, and recommending a couple of your favorites. relation or not. I'll have a look on Amazon, or maybe an on-line architectural bookstore to see what is still available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbr Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 I'd be interested in your suggestions, too. I find that to be one of the more difficult areas for me. I am used to making my designs look like I want, but when it comes to a full on composition, I am sure I could learn more. My advice to chuck would be that business is not only limited by talent, but by time and connections. The best designer/3D guru/web designer/graphic designer/architect can do nothing without clients. This is something they forgot to teach us at arch school (and 7 years of it, you think they'd get around to the business aspects!). I am sure you've seen this, as we all have. So your competition you posted may not be great, but I would assume they do things quickly, inexpensively, and maintain a professional tone. That goes a long way. Many clients don't want to pay for the 'best', they just want something quick. I'd second the re read of Wright's articles. It's about time I revisited them, too. Oh, and be very careful about the time. You'd be surprised at how little you can get done when you only have a few hours in the evening to work. 8 hours in one chunk goes much farther than a few evenings. Explain to your clients about what you are doing, so they don't expect you to answer calls at 10am or send them images in the middle of the day. I'd also make sure you are either up front at work or very careful, most firms do not want you working on the side for liability reasons. Good luck. Hey, didn't we see that bathroom you posted a while back?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck Posted May 28, 2004 Author Share Posted May 28, 2004 thanks for the replies everyone. i quit a job a few weeks ago to take the one i am currently at. i was modeling in sketchup for mostly high end residential projects. my boss there is interested in subcontracting, she has noticed the need for clean "photorealistic" renderings- more in the commercial sector though. she always has too much work. i have already done a few mass modeling urban projects in SU, ended up getting paid $35 an hour. thats nice. i'd like to start a "business" just because it seems more proffesional. if i was a firm i'd rather have a company render stuff than "some guy". not sure how much that would really hold up though. i really enjoy growing in this aspect of design, and i think it would be a waste not to use that energy. mbr- yeah, when you really think about what you learn in school its a little scary. a lot of "design" classes, 2 courses of CD's, 4 courses of structures...etc. just scratching the surface. we learned NOTHING about business. nothing about getting a job. it is all about conections. that studio by the way is not cheap. people were throwing around figures like $3000 for a rendering. hopefully that was a set. anyway, i think i'll start an exterior shot this weekend... chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Homeless Guy Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 ........ended up getting paid $35 an hour. thats nice. ........that studio by the way is not cheap. people were throwing around figures like $3000 for a rendering. hopefully that was a set. anyway, i think i'll start an exterior shot this weekend... chuck search the archives for info on what to charge, there are several threads on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernest Burden III Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 when you really think about what you learn in school its a little scary...we learned NOTHING about business. And boy does it show with many of my clients! that studio by the way is not cheap. people were throwing around figures like $3000 for a rendering. hopefully that was a set. No, that would be a normal fee for a rendering. At least in the US. It can take a lot of hours to produce a rendering, and then you have all the costs of being in business, taxes, etc. to factor in. David Wright... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbr Posted May 28, 2004 Share Posted May 28, 2004 Yeah, don't underestimate the time or the value, for that matter. I've read on many other sites of people scoffing at $1000 for a rendering (on architecture sites, where most are used to low numbers), but in reality, you won't find anyone in the US doing things that inexpensively, not as a nor. You would be hard pressed to find a place overseas that is good and will do it that cheap. And also don't forget the processing time. Unless you've got a bunch of kick ass computers networked, it's gonna take a lot of time to render a print resolution image. Read the $$ threads, you will be surprised and realize why many of us have chosen to pursue this instead of a regular arch career. $35 per hour is really low, for any kind of contract work (including web design, graphic design, or even drafting). Talk with your contract and see if you can line up work and negotiate a 'long term' relationship. Consistent work is worth a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serpico Posted May 29, 2004 Share Posted May 29, 2004 I just finished my first job at $40/hr and it took about 15 hours to do. I did it for a friend who is putting a proposal together for the local airport. I didn't know what to charge, since my day job is around $85/hr for just CAD services. I can't imagine $3000US a render! That would be sweet. I would definitely quit the day job! Finding business is what we are not taught at school, I agree. There should be a mix or balance, but guess the schools always think you'll find a job working for someone else first. I would like some help from those links to the stories above if anyone has them. I will try searching again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck Posted May 29, 2004 Author Share Posted May 29, 2004 here ya go serpico... http://www.cgarchitect.com/upclose/DW/default.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Jeff Mottle Posted May 29, 2004 Administrators Share Posted May 29, 2004 I can't imagine $3000US a render! That would be sweet. I would definitely quit the day job! Start imagining. I don't know many that charge less than that per rendering. $85-130/hour is the going rate for big CG firms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Homeless Guy Posted May 29, 2004 Share Posted May 29, 2004 ...but $3000 for 15 hours is $200 an hour. if you are going to chrge $3000 for a rendering, then the rendering should be worth $3000. you may be able to do the same amount of work in 15 hours that takes everyone else 30. fine, then you should be charging it like it takes 30, and not selling yourself short simply because you are more effecient. but if you are charging $3000 for a rendering that anyone could do in 15 hours, then you may have an issue. ...but if you can get away with it, then more power to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan Posted May 29, 2004 Share Posted May 29, 2004 I think very few people have a real appreciation or understanding of just how much time it takes to do a good rendering. I was warned when I went into this business and I didn't care. I was so sure that doing what I loved, visualizations, would make up for the long hard hours. Now I'm not so sure. The caveat is that perhaps it's just me, that I am particularly slow, so take what I say with a grain of salt. But all of my projects are left by my clients to the very last minute or at least they have been delayed throughout and now they are under the gun. I'm always under the gun. They always want it in a hurry but, a very fine job and they always want to bargain on the price. I have found myself working on projects that should take 3 weeks but must be delivered in a week and half. I work from 8 AM to 3AM on those days. Miss meals with my kids, miss weekends, shout at everybody and then when the job is done, I sleep for 3 days. It really hasn't been much fun at all. One more than earns those $3000 fees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan Posted May 29, 2004 Share Posted May 29, 2004 If you want the Classic tome for Architectural Illustrators it is "Color in Sketching and Rendering" by Arthur Guptill. The first edition was published in the 1930's and it was re-published several times. DO not by the contracted versions published after the 1950's. It is a huge book concerning watercolor for Architectural Rendering and it covers, in depth, various facets of composition specifically for this field. IT IS NOT OUT OF DATE! It is priceless. It can often be found at used book-sellers for around $20 but the shipping is expensive (another $20) because it is so big and heavy. Search on www.abebooks.com and sort by price and you should find many of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nisus Posted May 29, 2004 Share Posted May 29, 2004 Hi Susan, Tnx a lot for your tip on the book. I have been searching for ages for good reference material on this... It looks fabulous ,-) Also, the being under the gun issue is well know in about every arch.viz-studio. One way to handle this is to put a gun at your client every time you need info from his and make clear that if he is being late, you will be late to. Remember to do this from the first day (even if there are three more weeks to go!) So always give a deadline to your client when you need info. Warn him on the forehand that you work tightly sheduled and that you need the info AT THAT TIME. Any delay will result in a delayed delivery (if one does not want to miss meals and time with their kids... and NO one should!). Be sure to remind your client of this BEFORE his deadline is overdue and CALL him to remind it before it's to late. (Call, don't mail!... and Oh Yes, THIS is also a part of your job!) Make your point HARD if he has ignored your request and DO inform him that the deadline is extended... Don't hesitate to say this even if you still got three weeks to go! He will soon learn his own responsibilty and try to avoid it. If he cannot avoid it, at least you won't get blamed, so it's worth the try... In the end, the work will be done faster with less stress... ;-) rgds nisus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucho Posted May 31, 2004 Share Posted May 31, 2004 Hi: One of the problems in this business is to make the same stuff, basically when a designer starts is a problem because you offers the same renders that your competence.. I suggest you start to work with different renders, to make a render with a strong personality that will difference your renders in the future and it could bring you new clients ... when i started it worked for me. Good Luck Lucho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serpico Posted June 1, 2004 Share Posted June 1, 2004 Chuck: Thanks for the link, I'll make sure to read after my visit here. Jeff: Are you stating those amounts are in CDN dollars or US? $85/hr is what my day job charges out for me, but that's just for CAD services. Are you saying that I could charge that and more here in Vancouver? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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