Dealing with problem clients

[psyanide]

I have a problem with a client who has an outstanding invoice from April (its only £400), and I can't get in contact with him. Anyone had experience dealing with this? Also, is there some kind of list that problem clients like this could be posted on as a warning to other artists?

[Ernest Burden III]

Do you feel the client is actively avoiding your calls?

 

Unless the client is a sole-operator, you don't need him/her to get paid. You need the accounts-payable person. Call and ask for accounting. Talk to them about the invoice. It then becomes their problem to track down the person needed to approve the invoice, or to simply pay it. Expect to hear "we've never seen that invoice" and be asked to re-fax it...mark it 'overdue' in big letters, or sixty days notice or similar.

 

They may also say 'we can't pay you because we haven't been paid by our client'. This is EXTREMELY common with architectural clients, and utter nonsense. They seem to think they have no responsibilty for products and services they order. What to do? A good contract beforehand may help, but don't expect it to penetrate the six inches of concrete that passes for a skull on most architects. You could ask the accounting department if that policy worked with the electric utility. It won't get you paid any quicker, but its fun.

 

If the client is a sole practitioner, make a note to self to not work for sole practitioners any more.

 

If the client is actively avoiding you, decide to either take them to court or write off the recievable and move on. Don't spent BP1000 of your time to recover BP400 in six months. The amount becomes tuition in the school of life.

 

Lists of bad clients are not a good idea because you could end up being sued for defamation. I often hear renderers here in the US wanting to post such lists on websites, but as inviting as is seems, it is never a good idea to put it into writing. However, you could file a complaint with any professional group the client belongs to, or licencing board for his/her practice. That, too, would be fun.

[mbr]

A friend of mine built a (physical - foam core) model for a client. The guy then refused to pay, avoiding all calls and emails and certified letters.

Eventually he contacted the guys client (that the model was for. So it's Architect (my friend) > Contractor (his client) > Retail Chain (the contractor's client). He spoke with them and commented on the guys performance, etc., in a professional way, of course.

Not sure if it worked. Last I new the guy 'decidied' to pay in $500 increments once he received his court summons.

It's crazy when these guys balk at a few hundred dollars for a project that costs millions!

Part of the game, I guess.

[psyanide]

Thanks for the replies.

Ernest, you hit the nail on the head. Sole practitioner, told me over a month ago that he was waiting to be paid and he was getting paid within the fortnight. (So he should have had the money by now). My feelings on that though are if you want to buy something or a service, you have the money in your pocket first.

Last thing I do for him unless I get part payment up-front.

 

Sam

[Jeff Mottle]

If all else suggested fails and you really want to get paid send the account to a collection agency. A good one will ay first politely contact them to remind them that they are owing money and call a few times a day. If the response is "I won't pay" or tries to get out of paying they will move the account on to more experienced collectors who "know" how to get money from people with other tactics. You will pay about 30% to the collector, but some money is better than none and by the sounds of it you would not want to do business with them anymore anyway.

 

I have an account for CGA at a collection agency right now and I quote "we never cross the black line but we sure do enter the gray area. The less I know about how they get you money the better of I am." This from the account manager. Personally if I have done my best already to collect and they have also politely reminded them to pay and they still refuse, as is my case, I have no problems whatsoever with a collection agency using whaetever legals means they have to "pursuade" payment.

[Ernest Burden III]

A friend of mine built a (physical - foam core) model for a client. The guy then refused to pay...Eventually he contacted the guys client

That is actually a good last resort method. The ultimate client may not be aware of the intermediate client's refusal to pay on time. The final user can be made aware that no rights to use the work were ever transfered since the work was not paid (or paid in full). You can offer to have the final client pay the bill directly in return for a letter that specificly grants THEM the usage right retroactively to when they first used your work. That clears them in writing for any infringement liability. They may be surprised to hear that their rights to use material they thought they were paying for are being controled by the designer. So they pay you, they then don't pay the other guy--turn the tables on the bastard. You may even get the top-level client to hire you directly the next time. Make them a partner in solving a two-sided problem.

[psyanide]

A collection agency, hmmm.. Would they collect on as little as £400 though?

I assume they don't go as far as putting horses heads in the "targets" bed. :ngelaugh:

[Jeff Mottle]

I'm sure they would. My account is only for $780 US. If dead horse heads are legal or fall into the "gray" area....bring it on.

[psyanide]

I think for the sums of money we are dealing with, it would more likely be a mouses head. :ebiggrin:

 

Ernest (& mbr), That's a good point, I hadn't thought about that. The artist still owns the image untill they are paid in full.

[vizwhiz]

hi There

 

Clients That DONT PAY or slow pay or NO PAY TODAY

(no way) LMAO-ROTF (been There done That more than 1x)

 

my advice from previous personal experience

 

DONT TURN OVER THE WORK UNTIL YOU HAVE BEEN PAID IN FULL

 

end of argument //// or else you are just asking for IT

 

once you turn over an electronic copy of dwg cd's (etc) then "the Cad is out of the Bag"

 

****

 

but be flexible. if they ask you to bend over backwards today

then pretty soon they will ask you to be bend over FORWARDS

 

i finally had to tell a Client ($247 Million $ proposal) who wouldnt pay me a $400 partial payment

 

That if,

 

"You cant afford to Pay me Then i cant afford to work for You"

 

and/or/if

 

"you are NOT going to pay me then i am NOT going to do the WORK for you"

 

i finally threatened to walk away from the project

i got paid IN ADVANCE IN FULL from that point on

 

it is bs that they will pay you when they get paid (NO way)

DO NOT AGREE TO THIS (EVER) THAT IS NOT YOUR PROBLEM

 

it took me forever to learn This (o damn, o yes o damn)

now anything $1,500 US or under i get paid in FULL b4 starting

 

otherwise 1/2 down 1/2 later b4 handing over the FINAL work

(check Images sent by Internet are 1/3 size with 72 dpi ONLY)

 

i am not a business person (just a starving artist type) but i DO like to eat.

 

PUT THE AGREEMENT IN WRITING OR DONT WORK

 

(This is not always easily done) but if they wont sign a piece of paper with a basic simple agreement then when will they sign a piece of paper with your NAME and $$ on it????

 

if they wont sign an agreement ask for the FULL PAYMENT UPFRONT and see what happens

 

 

Thanks

 

Randy

[John Dollus]

I have had a few of these over the years. The first one was for $350 and the company went out of business less than a year after I did contract work for them.

The second one (3 man office) pulled the old 'You get paid when I get paid' thing. My response was 'If you do not want to be responsible for prompt payment, then you should pass my contract up to someone who will'. I was paid by him within a week of that discussion but have not communicated with the company since.

The last one was a medium sized company that I did a branding package for. The client payed me once but the check bounced. I insisted on a bank certified check but the client refused. After hounding them for a couple weeks, I sent them two certified letters informing them of my intent to file a lien against their office if I had not received payment within two weeks. Two weeks later (to the day) I received a certified check from their bank. I have not pursued any further work from that client.

I have never asked for money up front as my projects usually last longer than four weeks and are progress billed. However, I have picked up several small projects that have been in the one week range and have been tempted to ask for 1/3 up front.

[seismograph]

DONT TURN OVER THE WORK UNTIL YOU HAVE BEEN PAID IN FULL

I'm always suprised when ppl work and get paid before they have hand over the work...it's unrealistic in architectural business ..at least in europe.

 

In europe you have an average delay of payment from 5-6 month!! (which sounds too long for me) ..anyway if you "lost" contact than open ears if the client still exist in business and if yes then send him the bill with an registered letter again.

[Iain Denby]

Here in the UK, I think to demand payment up front is unreasonable. If they paid everyone that way, they wouldn't have an efficient system, so I give them the standard 30 days, then I'm calling them.

[psyanide]

In the UK, can interest be charged after 30 days? I'm sure I was told that once before.

[mbr]

I am a little surprised that people so many here are getting so much before they turn on their computer.

My clients have resisted this, and ultimately, forced me to rearrange the contract and eliminate up front pay.

 

My current client's quote when he saw it : "I don't pay my architect a penny up front, why should I pay you anything?". Well, that was that, and I rearranged it and broke it down into more pieces.

[Ernest Burden III]

My current client's quote when he saw it : "I don't pay my architect a penny up front, why should I pay you anything?". Well, that was that, and I rearranged it and broke it down into more pieces.

My standard contract calls for an upfront payment--actually it calls for 1/2 to start, 1/2 upon completion on a COD basis, and interest after 30 days. But it is mostly ignored bu both me and my clients. I do enforce it sometimes, but usually only with a NEW client with whom I have no working relationship. One of my collegues here in NY has set it up so he can accept credit cards--when a client gives him a line about 'it takes 3 weeks to get a check out of Omaha (it's always Omaha, too) he just says 'you can use a company credit card'. They all have them, at least anyone with the authority to conract your services will. I don't go that far, but I don't fault my friend for it.

 

What arrangements the buyer has with their architect or anyone else is irrelevent. YOU set the term for your services. I try to not be a pain-in-the-ass, but a retainer is a fair request for time-based custom work. If he doesn't pay you its not like you can sell the rendering to the next guy in line. You MUST be prepared to walk away from the deal in support of your principles. You would be better served spending your time looking for other clients than taking a bath by not getting paid for your hard work.

 

The answer to that comment can be "he may be able to finance the recievables, but I cannot. This is what I require to be able to do this project for you." Think about it: if they are resisitent to paying a reasonable retainer to hold your time why would you assume they will be anymore willing to be reasonable about payment later? Its like those women that date married men, then when they divorce the first wife believe the jerk is going to be faithful to THEM--you already know the guy is a filanderer, why think he's going to change now? A client that resists signing a contract or paying a retainer is likely to behave exactly the same later. You cannot get your time back.

 

I have mostly worked for large firms and have had VERY few problems with payments--at least in the refusing to pay area--over the years. A lot of late checks, and nothing short of COD will cure that. I've heard every excuse in the book and have an answer for all of them, but the problem persists. You do not have to go along with it.

[nisus]

Hi all,

 

Just make sure you get paid 30-50% up front, the rest in parts depending on the progress. Don't deliver before payment.

Someone mentioned one has to wait 5-6 months for a payment in Europe... Imho, that's not true! But it depends on yourself. Got get what you deserve!

 

rgds

 

nisus