Job Description

[strayrender]

Am I the only one who dislikes seeing this in job descriptions, "willing to work extra hours and some weekends where necessary to help us grow together even further".

I am all for helping a company grow but I am also a big believer in having a life outside work. Why do companies think they can ask for your precious free time, blows my mind. If you are willing to accept these practices you hurt the industry. Companies will think it's the norm to tap their employees for extra hours over and above the normal work week.

A successfully run company should be able to take jobs from start to finish within normal work hours. If you push your employees to work extra hours it can lead to burn out and affect creativity.

[Dave Buckley]

they haven't said they want your free time?

 

also it depends who i was when applying for the job, if i was a graduate, i wouldn't care, it's a foot in the door

 

if i was getting paid for it i also wouldn't really mind that much for a couple of reasons:

 

1. i enjoy what i do

2. i'd be getting more money than normal

3. i'd be getting paid for doing what i enjoy

 

i too believe in a life after work, but you can have an ever better one with more money.

 

there not asking you to do something they wouldn't do themselves, or haven't done themselves in the past.

 

is it a big company? if not perhaps its a startup who can't afford to take on the amount of people needed to do the work but at the same time can't afford to turn work down.

 

it's a tough time and at the end of the day, every penny counts.

 

HOWEVER, you can't always judge it and they could well be takin advantage of people willing to put in the extra time.

 

all i'm saying is that you shouldn't shoot it down straight away.

 

i guess it's better than not having a job at all

[Devin Johnston]

I agree with you in general but there are some situations where you have to put in some extra time in order to get the project out from time to time. That being said if this is in the job description you can bet that they are expecting you to regularly put in overtime and it's just another way for the company to squeeze more work out of people for less money. I'd stay away from jobs like this, or at least make it clear that any overtime must be compensated for at a reasonable rate.

[strayrender]

they haven't said they want your free time?

 

also it depends who i was when applying for the job, if i was a graduate, i wouldn't care, it's a foot in the door

 

if i was getting paid for it i also wouldn't really mind that much for a couple of reasons:

 

1. i enjoy what i do

2. i'd be getting more money than normal

3. i'd be getting paid for doing what i enjoy

 

i too believe in a life after work, but you can have an ever better one with more money.

 

there not asking you to do something they wouldn't do themselves, or haven't done themselves in the past.

 

is it a big company? if not perhaps its a startup who can't afford to take on the amount of people needed to do the work but at the same time can't afford to turn work down.

 

it's a tough time and at the end of the day, every penny counts.

 

HOWEVER, you can't always judge it and they could well be takin advantage of people willing to put in the extra time.

 

all i'm saying is that you shouldn't shoot it down straight away.

 

i guess it's better than not having a job at all

 

Your time outside of normal work hours is your free time. Especially when they mention weekends, this should be your time to recharge and enjoy life. Unfortunately we have to work to live but we don't need to live to work.

Now you also said if you were getting paid for it you would not mind. I agree and that's the important distinction. If I was getting paid overtime or making a good chunk above the industry average I would not mind putting in extra hours. It's the freebie hours I have a problem with. When you could paid industry average but they expect above industry average hours.

My main point is the hours you put in at work should never be free. If you work at MacDonalds I am sure they would not ask you to work nights and weekend for no pay.

[strayrender]

I agree with you in general but there are some situations where you have to put in some extra time in order to get the project out from time to time. That being said if this is in the job description you can bet that they are expecting you to regularly put in overtime and it's just another way for the company to squeeze more work out of people for less money. I'd stay away from jobs like this, or at least make it clear that any overtime must be compensated for at a reasonable rate.

 

I agree with you that every now and then there is exceptions to the rule but that's what they should be exception's. I also agree it's a red flag when it's in the description, it means it's the norm for that company.

[Dave Buckley]

oh for sure i agree with you, my main point was merely to not instantly think they want your free time. no harm in asking before completely disregarding the job

[erickdt]

Meh. Overtime is a necessary evil. I'm a salaried employee so there's really no such thing as getting paid for overtime. So long as it doesn't become a situation where I'm constantly having to stay late and work over the weekend I don't really mind working overtime.

 

When it comes right down to it the job needs to be done when it needs to be done and sometimes that requires a little extra effort and sacrifice on an individual level. If you're not willing to do it there's someone else out there who will.

 

I know it's not in style to stick up for ones employer but the fact of the matter is any good company that takes care of its employees does an awful lot for those individual's benefit (paying salaries, health insurance for you and your family, 401K, unemployment etc.) so if I need to stay late every now and again for them I dont mind. As far as I'm concerned our interests are intertwined. If they're doing well then I'm doing well.

 

My 2c.

[Tommy L]

Im in agreement with the original post in principle. However, you have to say fair enough when they disclose the fact they are going to steal your life up-front.

I also think that if you dont like the idea of someone dictating what you do every day of the week, go freelance or start a company. You are still at the beck and call of someone (clients) but at the very least, the input (work) to output (money) ratio is much kinder and more rewarding.

 

Oh, and Erick, just because you are a salaried employee does not mean you are ineligible for over-time compensation of some kind or another.

 

I had a boss once who would buy us a pizza if we came in at the weekend. I was like, are you f**ckin kidding me? Pizza? For a weekend?

[erickdt]

Oh, and Erick, just because you are a salaried employee does not mean you are ineligible for over-time compensation of some kind or another.

 

I aware of that. I will say though, I haven't once recieved overtime compensation in any salaried job I've held (which has been every job in my career so far except freelance). There might be legal recourse to get such income I'm just not that interested in the time, aggravation and threat to my job for pursuing it. Like I said before, so long as it's not all of the time I'm fine with it. I think I do a pretty good job managing my own time so as to prevent it from happening but there is always the few and far between occasion that it is necessary.

 

E

[Tommy L]

I aware of that. I will say though, I haven't once recieved overtime compensation in any salaried job I've held (which has been every job in my career so far except freelance). There might be legal recourse to get such income I'm just not that interested in the time, aggravation and threat to my job for pursuing it. Like I said before, so long as it's not all of the time I'm fine with it. I think I do a pretty good job managing my own time so as to prevent it from happening but there is always the few and far between occasion that it is necessary.

 

E

 

well yes, but I just meant there's no harm in asking. If you are looking at legal action for any issue, you are also looking for a new job

[strayrender]

Meh. Overtime is a necessary evil. I'm a salaried employee so there's really no such thing as getting paid for overtime. So long as it doesn't become a situation where I'm constantly having to stay late and work over the weekend I don't really mind working overtime.

 

When it comes right down to it the job needs to be done when it needs to be done and sometimes that requires a little extra effort and sacrifice on an individual level. If you're not willing to do it there's someone else out there who will.

 

I know it's not in style to stick up for ones employer but the fact of the matter is any good company that takes care of its employees does an awful lot for those individual's benefit (paying salaries, health insurance for you and your family, 401K, unemployment etc.) so if I need to stay late every now and again for them I dont mind. As far as I'm concerned our interests are intertwined. If they're doing well then I'm doing well.

 

My 2c.

 

Overtime is only a necessary evil if you let it be. You also mention if your not willing to do it there's someone else out there who will. This is true to a certain extent but only if you are easily replaceable.

Also you mention health insurance, 401k's etc as being taken care of which is fine but you have to remember that you give just as much to a company as they give to you, usually more. I mean you were hired to increase profits, you make money for the company, keep that in mind. All in all remember your worth not only as an employee but as a human being.

[strayrender]

Im in agreement with the original post in principle. However, you have to say fair enough when they disclose the fact they are going to steal your life up-front.

I also think that if you dont like the idea of someone dictating what you do every day of the week, go freelance or start a company. You are still at the beck and call of someone (clients) but at the very least, the input (work) to output (money) ratio is much kinder and more rewarding.

 

Oh, and Erick, just because you are a salaried employee does not mean you are ineligible for over-time compensation of some kind or another.

 

I had a boss once who would buy us a pizza if we came in at the weekend. I was like, are you f**ckin kidding me? Pizza? For a weekend?

 

I agree that it's good they are upfront. It would be even worse if they kept it quiet and then hit you with it once you have started.

To clarify I don't mind someone dictating what I do during standard work hours but outside of standard work hours I don't feel an employer should dictate at all.

I have put in plenty of hours in the past, all nighter's, crazy work weeks but I look back on it and realize how silly I was to wear those all nighter's like medals of honor. I gave huge chunks of my life away for the profit of others. Sure your career may progress a little faster than others but is it truly worth it.

I think when you know a couple of people who die young it puts it all in perspective. It's only a job but it's not only a life.

[erickdt]

Overtime is only a necessary evil if you let it be. You also mention if your not willing to do it there's someone else out there who will. This is true to a certain extent but only if you are easily replaceable.

Also you mention health insurance, 401k's etc as being taken care of which is fine but you have to remember that you give just as much to a company as they give to you, usually more. I mean you were hired to increase profits, you make money for the company, keep that in mind. All in all remember your worth not only as an employee but as a human being.

 

No not "only if you let it be". Try as you might there is no way for you or your employer to control all of the factors that might lead to something having to be finished at the last minute, after hours or over the weekends. Either way the job needs to get done if the company (your company) wants the business. Lose enough jobs because you don't feel like sacrificing your own personal time from time to time your company is out of business and you're out of a job.

 

When I say "if you won't do it someone else will" I mean it on two levels. 1.) that your company might replace you 2.) that there is another company out there who has employees that will work overtime to get the job done.

 

If you think you're giving more to a company than they're giving back to you then it's time for you to start looking for a new job. It's important to keep in mind that your relationship with your employer should be a cooperative, not adversarial one. Like I said before, both of your interests are intertwined. If both parties know what's good for them they'll watch each others backs and be willing to make sacrifices for the other when the need arrises. Just like any other relationship, it's a balance that needs to be constantly mantained but if done so correctly can be very rewarding for all involved in both a monetary and existential sense.

 

It sounds to me that you are or have worked for some d*ck who made you work all sorts of crazy hours. That sucks but that's life. Hopefully you have or you will shortly move on from that experience. Like I said, your relationship with your employer is no different than any other relationship and the potential for abuse comes with it. It's not always or even usually like that...

 

E

[strayrender]

No not "only if you let it be". Try as you might there is no way for you or your employer to control all of the factors that might lead to something having to be finished at the last minute, after hours or over the weekends. Either way the job needs to get done if the company (your company) wants the business. Lose enough jobs because you don't feel like sacrificing your own personal time from time to time your company is out of business and you're out of a job.

 

When I say "if you won't do it someone else will" I mean it on two levels. 1.) that your company might replace you 2.) that there is another company out there who has employees that will work overtime to get the job done.

 

If you think you're giving more to a company than they're giving back to you then it's time for you to start looking for a new job. It's important to keep in mind that your relationship with your employer should be a cooperative, not adversarial one. Like I said before, both of your interests are intertwined. If both parties know what's good for them they'll watch each others backs and be willing to make sacrifices for the other when the need arrises. Just like any other relationship, it's a balance that needs to be constantly mantained but if done so correctly can be very rewarding for all involved in both a monetary and existential sense.

 

It sounds to me that you are or have worked for some d*ck who made you work all sorts of crazy hours. That sucks but that's life. Hopefully you have or you will shortly move on from that experience. Like I said, your relationship with your employer is no different than any other relationship and the potential for abuse comes with it. It's not always or even usually like that...

 

E

 

There are ways for your employer to control factors that lead to last minute jobs and tight deadlines. Of course there are exception's to the rule but most of the time an employer knows what they are getting into. You say the job needs to be done if they want the business but sometimes it's better to sell your services on quality rather than meeting insane deadlines. You will fight a losing battle if you base your workload on competing on how quick you can turn around a project. But the battle can be won if you compete on customer service and quality of finished project.

You missed my point regarding giving more to the company. You were hired because you will make profits for the company once they deduct your wage. Your not a bit of office furniture your a money making machine.

So you want to be intertwined do you, well if your boss wants you to work at the weekend for free, why don't you ask him next weekend to come out on his weekend and help you paint your house. See how that goes down.

Luckily I have never worked for a bad boss, I have been very lucky. But what I did learn is that I should focus on the quality of my work, rather than quantity. It always wins out, take my word for it.

[erickdt]

Whatever you say Alex... I'm just speaking from my ~10 years of experience.

 

Quality and quantity are not mutually exclusive. In fact if you're staying late to finish something it's probably because you're not willing to churn out crap in the name of just getting it done on time. For me, the quality of my work is a matter of personal pride and I am not willing to put my name on anything that I think is sub-par.

 

Also, I don't "want" to be intertwined with my company's interests it is a matter or fact. That's what I (and anyone else who has a full time job) signed up for. I also signed up to work as long as took to get the job done. So no, I don't "work for free" ever. Those few extra hours every now and then were part of the original deal.

 

You probably have no concept of the amount of personal financial and legal risk that someone takes on as a business owner with employees. With their greater risk comes their greater reward. Of course the opposite can also be true if the business fails. If you as an employee have a problem with that you should go into business for yourself. Also, if you own your business you can count on being "on the job" 24/7.

 

E

[Devin Johnston]

This is really about whether or not your being abused as an employee and if the compensation you receive as a salary & bonus makes up for the time you've put in. Someone who works 50+ hours every week and doesen't get overtime or a bonus that makes up for that time is getting screwed.

[Tommy L]

I think the responsibility to balance your employees work/life does rest partially with the employer. You have a responsibility to only take on what the production staff can manage in a reasonable amount of time and if you take on more, the company should be compensated to a greater degree and that extra profit should be passed on - in part - to the guys that put in the extra hours. This can be in the form of an annual bonus or in over-time pay.

I can see two sides of the argument here. I have employed and been an employee. Companies that treat their employees well keep their good talent. It is incredibly hard to find good 3d staff. A willingness to go the extra mile is part of being a good employee. But a willingness to go an extra ten miles is not productive for either party in the long term.

[strayrender]

Whatever you say Alex... I'm just speaking from my ~10 years of experience.

 

Quality and quantity are not mutually exclusive. In fact if you're staying late to finish something it's probably because you're not willing to churn out crap in the name of just getting it done on time. For me, the quality of my work is a matter of personal pride and I am not willing to put my name on anything that I think is sub-par.

 

Also, I don't "want" to be intertwined with my company's interests it is a matter or fact. That's what I (and anyone else who has a full time job) signed up for. I also signed up to work as long as took to get the job done. So no, I don't "work for free" ever. Those few extra hours every now and then were part of the original deal.

 

You probably have no concept of the amount of personal financial and legal risk that someone takes on as a business owner with employees. With their greater risk comes their greater reward. Of course the opposite can also be true if the business fails. If you as an employee have a problem with that you should go into business for yourself. Also, if you own your business you can count on being "on the job" 24/7.

 

E

 

10 years experience, makes two of us. I fear you are missing my point, put yourself in the bosses shoes. Job comes along with very tight deadline, you know you could probably get it done with your guys putting in some extra hours. You do it, the job gets done the balance is paid. Do you think a boss will be more or less likely to take on a job with such a tight deadline?. Of course they will because you have showed yourself willing to bend over and take it.

Your staying late because your not willing to churn out crap. Don't you think that should be built into the contract so you can make it look good in your normal work hours?.

I do have a concept of the amount of personal financial and legal risk that a business owner takes. I would never want to be a business owner due to the inherent stress that comes along with it. But what I do have is a sense of self worth. I don't sell myself short, I realize it's a two way street, I produce a product for the company they pay me for it. If I had my own business I would not work for free, so same goes in an employee situation. I only work overtime when it's really, really needed.

You said you only work a few extra hours every now and then, so maybe you don't understand where I am coming from. We are going around in circles, if you want to sell yourself short, go ahead. It not only hurts you but it hurts the industry.

[strayrender]

this is really about whether or not your being abused as an employee and if the compensation you receive as a salary & bonus makes up for the time you've put in. Someone who works 50+ hours every week and doesen't get overtime or a bonus that makes up for that time is getting screwed.

 

exactly!!!!!!.

[strayrender]

I think the responsibility to balance your employees work/life does rest partially with the employer. You have a responsibility to only take on what the production staff can manage in a reasonable amount of time and if you take on more, the company should be compensated to a greater degree and that extra profit should be passed on - in part - to the guys that put in the extra hours. This can be in the form of an annual bonus or in over-time pay.

I can see two sides of the argument here. I have employed and been an employee. Companies that treat their employees well keep their good talent. It is incredibly hard to find good 3d staff. A willingness to go the extra mile is part of being a good employee. But a willingness to go an extra ten miles is not productive for either party in the long term.

 

Could not have said it better if I tried.

[erickdt]

I agree that having to constantly go that extra ten miles without a change in compensation is unreasonable. At that point it's time to look for a new gig.

 

I guess I'm just lucky to have an employer who takes care of its employees.

 

E

[erickdt]

"If you want to sell yourself short, go ahead."

 

Trust me, I'm not selling myself short.

 

E

[strayrender]

I agree that having to constantly go that extra ten miles without a change in compensation is unreasonable. At that point it's time to look for a new gig.

 

I guess I'm just lucky to have an employer who takes care of its employees.

 

E

 

You are lucky. The main thing that got my goat about the job description was the fact that they mention extra hours and weekends if needed but no mention of bonus, overtime etc. So that leads me to believe they just expect it. Of course it may not be the case, it just may be a bad job description.

[strayrender]

"If you want to sell yourself short, go ahead."

 

Trust me, I'm not selling myself short.

 

E

 

No your not but your words were encouraging others to do that. It's nice we are showing both sides, I thank you for a great discussion.

[erickdt]

"I thank you for a great discussion."

 

Same here.

 

E