Chasing a dying industry?

[Bwana Kahawa]

Tom's right this economy is horrible and from what I've read is about to get worse, if you've got a job I'd think twice before leaving it unless you've got a sure thing lined up.

 

Where have you heard that? Not disuputing it, just interested. I thought things were on the mend...

 

I agree that having a job is better than no job, but it's currently so far away from my original job description (now mainly website admin and using Publisher to format job bids) that it hardly seems worth it. The occasional photography or visualisation job is superb, but they happen probably once a month at most. It's just such a tough call to make - no turning back, etc...

[Jonathan Sanchez]

Where have you heard that? Not disuputing it, just interested. I thought things were on the mend...

 

I agree that having a job is better than no job, but it's currently so far away from my original job description (now mainly website admin and using Publisher to format job bids) that it hardly seems worth it. The occasional photography or visualisation job is superb, but they happen probably once a month at most. It's just such a tough call to make - no turning back, etc...

 

Derek, I don't know how your local market is looking, but here in the US there is a great fear of a double dip recession. Job growth is slowing and this month actually dropped. Especially hurting is our industry because of all the facts mentioned earlier in this thread. If you are looking for another job, your best bet is to find it first, then quit your current one. If you are looking to go on your own, moonlight for a while, develop clients, then quit your job.

[Nic H]

thought of moving out of an inhouse role to a studio?

 

as soon as i did that my motivation returned and i began enjoying work alot more and learnt an awful lot more in a short time. it is more difficult but ultimately much better work imo.

[Tommy L]

thought of moving out of an inhouse role to a studio?

 

as soon as i did that my motivation returned and i began enjoying work alot more and learnt an awful lot more in a short time. it is more difficult but ultimately much better work imo.

 

+1

[Devin Johnston]

I've got to say I've always wondered what the difference is between the two. I'm the only illustrator in a company of over 100 people and I find that my work load is too heavy for me to ever do work that satisfies me.

[leoA4D]

...I'm going to law school and in a few years when I'm making three times what I used to (M.Arch and JD is a very powerful combination and very few people have it) I'll buy a bigger house, build a darkroom and have a better creative outlet than architecture provides.

 

The following is not intended to be a buzz killer but thoughts from my experiences:

 

1. Go to a top five law school (and graduate near the top of your class) or make sure you are wealthy. Many 2nd tier and below law school graduates are not on easy street and, if they practice law at all it is divorce and accident claim law (a.k.a., ambulance chasing). A guy I worked with had a arch degree from Harvard, returned for a law degree and found easy street with a Manhattan bank.

 

2. LOVE the law you practice, be motivated to set the world of law on fire and keep your nose and dagger sharp. A lawyer friend said the reason lawyers make big bucks is because that is the only way to keep them in practice.

 

3. Accept you are leaving the world of creating and construction for a life where you might be expected to destroy dreams, financial security and more.

 

I do hope it will be better than your experiences with the "older men". Why have you not tried going with a bunch of people your age? Anyway, good luck.

 

Leonard

[Tommy L]

I've got to say I've always wondered what the difference is between the two. I'm the only illustrator in a company of over 100 people and I find that my work load is too heavy for me to ever do work that satisfies me.

 

The difference is night and day:

I started 3d career at 3dcom (3d vis studio). Loved it. Great boss, interesting work, time to do projects, good buffer between clients and me, good creative control, involved in business development and branding, you name it, it was a team environment. We did have 'in-house' clients also, these were the only ones that ever really became drag jobs.

I moved to a arch practice in the States (Chicago) to be in-house guy. Not really a career move, I just fancied the States. Professionally, I hated it. Every job went on forever, always someone looking over my shoulder but no-one to watch my back. No creative input. Monotony of design ethos. Rush jobs on every job, even though it was just going to have another round of changes. Animating unfinished buildings. Working on outdated equipment. Expected to put in 'architect hours'. The boss bitching about the work. Seriously, Im good at what I do but I did not feel any where near as valued as when I was surrounded by people working in a 3d studio.

But the main problem was that everything was a design rendering. Nothing from that year of my life is in my portfolio.

Work in a studio or be self-employed.

[Devin Johnston]

Thanks for sharing that Tom, I experience everything you've listed on a daily basis although I think I've become somewhat immune to the whole process but I think it has affected me more than I realize. Every time someone comes to my desk I immediately become defensive because I know some kind of change is coming. Take yesterday for example, I've been working on an interior for two days all the while sending proof images to the client and all their comments were good. Then at the end of the day they decided they no longer liked the furniture, or the people, or the materials and the designers I was working with just kept telling them that we'd fix everything without a second thought as to how much time or money it would cost us on our already bare bones budget. Even my boss who I used to think was looking out for me told me that since we had to lay off one of my team members I'd just have to pick up the slack but that he knew I'd be able to handle it because we had such a great render farm! I've worked with these people for 8 years and none of them understand what I do or how long it takes to get high quality work, it's just so damned frustrating.

[Devin Johnston]

Hey Thomas just thought I'd tell you this because it's ironic but I just received on of your promotional e-mails.

[Tommy L]

haha, sorry, I hope you dont mind the spam. I dont do it often, twice a year at the very most (but dont forget to forward it to all your business contacts...)

[Devin Johnston]

I don't mind I get them all the time it was just funny that it came from you.

[Bwana Kahawa]

Cheers guys, that seems useful. I think the plan I'm going to go with is to stick with new role for 6 months, meanwhile building up my evening freelance work, and learning something like Unity or UDK (an avenue that they're just not interested in right now at my current job). Then I'll make a decision in 6 months based on the state of the industry and how strong my freelance client list is.

 

Not much talk of a double dip recession hear at the mo, although that's always a worry. Most people seem to me to be hopeful that we're on the way up again - wait and see, I guess...

[MattFrench]

Interesting thread guys, especially for someone looking at getting into freelancing.

 

I would say that this issue is certainly not limited to arch/viz guys. I have been compositing on films and TV for the last 5 years (having originally studied 3ds Max at school) and it has been hard everywhere, especially when you are on contract and have to physically move for the work.

 

I am actually back in f/t government work and looking at moving to a government job that is flexible and will allow me to work on freelance projects in my spare time. Hopefully by doing that I will have a solid base and not have to worry about not getting every job, but still keep my toe in the CG/creative world to keep my sanity. A few lighters I know have formed a loose consortium and they have clients OS that use them between projects, which is a good idea.

 

As for tariffs, they never work well. Propping up industries through artificial barriers never leads to happy endings.

 

It is interesting to note that on a couple of major projects I worked on, work was outsourced to China to "save money" but there was so much mucking about, work wasn't done to standard and communication was such a big deal that it ended up causing more work than it was worth. Talking with a few guys working over there, most students doing CG are from rich families and are just learning how to press buttons, not actual techniques or problems solving. Your advantage as a trained artist/technician is that you can provide higher service levels. Not all clients want or need that, but it is a selling point.

 

Just my thoughts.

[neil poppleton]

Not much talk of a double dip recession hear at the mo, although that's always a worry. Most people seem to me to be hopeful that we're on the way up again - wait and see, I guess...

 

I would disagree Derek, and suggest there is a great deal of fear over a double dip in the UK. Just this week the 55 billion pound Building schools for the future programme has been scrapped by the goverment, which I would suggest will leave many more architects with even less work than they had this time last week. Not sure what the Uk will be building over the next 12 months.....

[Sketchrender]

I personally think England will be ok.

They have a system set up that it is very difficult for any other country to tender for Architectural work and rightly so.

You have to have all your quality controls and your accreditations also. This is coming from an Irish company who tried to get in to the market.

England has a great self survival mode, so stick it out I think you will be OK.

Generally as far chasing a dieing industry, I currently work part time in an architectural company as an in house 3D person.

They use Revit through their partners but as of yet it has not had an effect on my work, as they are using my 3D for design purposes.

heart breaking work knowing what you can do given the time but life is not always a bed of roses. In time I will get a chance shine but if i don't there will be another day, and in the mean time the mortgage has been paid and I can go out and have a coffee and buy my son a gift out of the blue and life is good. Sometimes life is just about living and savoring what you have and not what could have been and what you could have had.

Sounds all very philosophical i know and you should try and be the best you can be, but not at the cost of living your life.....

 

jasus i should get back to work .

 

phil

[Nic H]

life is about holidays imo.

[wasteland giant]

industry isn't dying but damn if it isn't being overtaken by basement evermotion render chumps who don't really know about the nuances of 3D imaging/artistry as evident by the numerous "kit" room renders that seem to litter the finished work forums here.

 

This is the cgarchitect forum but it seems to be used not by architects. For imaging/real design, I have to go to archdaily or the ilk.

 

I blame burgeoning pc specs + availability of "render assets"

[MattFrench]

Well, you can say that about any form of digital imaging. Every muppet on DeviantArt has a cracked copy of Photoshop and thinks they have Mad Photoshop Skillz just as every aspiring film maker has a copy of After Effects and every plugin known to man to do Amazing CG FXZORZ

 

At the end of the day, when it comes to crunch time, professionals deliver the goods while the others are copying tutorials and delivering them as their own work.

[mattclinch]

well, you can say that about any form of digital imaging. Every muppet on deviantart has a cracked copy of photoshop and thinks they have mad photoshop skillz just as every aspiring film maker has a copy of after effects and every plugin known to man to do amazing cg fxzorz

 

at the end of the day, when it comes to crunch time, professionals deliver the goods while the others are copying tutorials and delivering them as their own work.

 

+1

[Tommy L]

industry isn't dying but damn if it isn't being overtaken by basement evermotion render chumps who don't really know about the nuances of 3D imaging/artistry as evident by the numerous "kit" room renders that seem to litter the finished work forums here.

 

This is the cgarchitect forum but it seems to be used not by architects. For imaging/real design, I have to go to archdaily or the ilk.

 

I blame burgeoning pc specs + availability of "render assets"

 

I think all 'basement chumps' have just as valid a contribution to this forum as you do. The aloof high-and-mighty attitude is not too endearing... Most 'Evermotion' scenes are used for self education, I dont have a problem with that. If an artist treats their client less than professionally, you have one more client looking for a decent stable. I think we were all basement chumps at one point or another. I also think that the majority of design professionals- in studio or at home- have used cracked softrware at one point or another.

I also like having faster pcs and availability of good render assets. Both make my life easier.

[Devin Johnston]

I think all 'basement chumps' have just as valid a contribution to this forum as you do. The aloof high-and-mighty attitude is not too endearing... Most 'Evermotion' scenes are used for self education, I dont have a problem with that. If an artist treats their client less than professionally, you have one more client looking for a decent stable. I think we were all basement chumps at one point or another. I also think that the majority of design professionals- in studio or at home- have used cracked softrware at one point or another.

I also like having faster pcs and availability of good render assets. Both make my life easier.

+1 here Tom

[jinsley]

Thanks for sharing that Tom, I experience everything you've listed on a daily basis although I think I've become somewhat immune to the whole process but I think it has affected me more than I realize. Every time someone comes to my desk I immediately become defensive because I know some kind of change is coming. ... just kept telling them that we'd fix everything without a second thought as to how much time or money it would cost us on our already bare bones budget. ... I've worked with these people for 8 years and none of them understand what I do or how long it takes to get high quality work, it's just so damned frustrating.

 

That's about the same thing as being told that I should be able to work on two rendering projects at the same time because I have two computers and that I should be able to get twice the work done in the same amount of time. I've been told that twice this week.

 

Same here. Except I have three boxes, one decent dual processor for rendering, a junk quad = basically a huge ipod, and an old dual with 64 bit on it.... and I hear it every week.

 

Devin, I find it a little discouraging that I am reading your comments and it is basically exactly what I have been going through for the last 4 years. I always get told "you have to educate people about what you do...", the trouble is, their only concern is money and the pretty little image they get at the end of the day. People have to be interested to be educated, otherwise they are just listening...

 

BUT what I will say is this, when all my friends who freelance and work at some of the local studios were getting no work or laid off, I kept my job despite massive company layoffs due to the fact that I am the graphics guy and no on else can do what I do. I don't get a lot of artistic freedom, satisfaction from what I produce or many budgets to really develop a project (1 or 2 a year) but I get to pay my mortgage and feed my kids.

 

I know that it is not the best work situation, but its what works best for my family right now. And I have faith that things will improve.

[Sketchrender]

Agree too....

If it wasn't for evermotion i would not have been able hit a lot deadlines in the past few years.

 

phil

 

+1 here Tom

[Devin Johnston]

Devin, I find it a little discouraging that I am reading your comments and it is basically exactly what I have been going through for the last 4 years. I always get told "you have to educate people about what you do...", the trouble is, their only concern is money and the pretty little image they get at the end of the day. People have to be interested to be educated, otherwise they are just listening...

My experience has been that most people don't care to understand the process they only want the result, for some reason they think because it's a computer you can cram 24 hours of work into 8 if you add enought hourse power to it. I've become pretty fast a generating work so I just do the best I can with the time I'm given but I dream of the day that we get a real budget were I can really stretch my legs and do some work that's outside my confort zone instead of just wipping something out in order to meet some rediculous deadline.

 

BUT what I will say is this, when all my friends who freelance and work at some of the local studios were getting no work or laid off, I kept my job despite massive company layoffs due to the fact that I am the graphics guy and no on else can do what I do. I don't get a lot of artistic freedom, satisfaction from what I produce or many budgets to really develop a project (1 or 2 a year) but I get to pay my mortgage and feed my kids.

 

I agree all of this.

[AJLynn]

Why should a client care if you work in a basement, rely on Evermotion content or even if your copy of Photoshop isn't legit? They want you to do a good job on schedule at a reasonable price - the state of artistry in the vis industry and Adobe's profit margin aren't their concerns.

 

Of course, this doesn't mean we have to show the same level of professional respect to those guys or to the Evermotion "just load the scene and hit render and you have a portfolio item" approach, just understand that they're there and they have some place in the market.