Chasing a dying industry?

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

Many of the Evermotion scenes are lit far more beautifully than what I have managed to achieve throughout my years in the industry.

[MattFrench]

Re: beautifully lit Evermotion scenes - Nothing wrong with that if you are a lighter. Heck, I will be using them to practice my lighting, however if you are being hired to do the whole job and you have to buy everything in your scene, maybe you don't quite have the Mad Skillzorz.

 

To clarify, I don't think there is anything wrong with using things like Evermotion scenes and doing tutorials. When time is at a premium, why model and texture a chair when you can buy one? However, if your work consists of just that and your results all look remarkably similar to every Gnomon/Digital Tutors DVD out there (and we know what they look like then it is worrying.

 

Of course, if you have a cheap client, perhaps give them what they want at chump prices, but being a pro, do it in half the time and bill them the full price. Use the extra time to service real clients? I guess a lot of it has to do with being able to classify what client you have and adjust your work/time/rate to reflect their expectations.

 

FYI: take what I say with a grain of salt as I have far less experience in dealing directly with clients than most of you guys!

[Jonathan Sanchez]

You know what would be interesting but I know Jeff would probably never allow?.... to create an annonymos survey to see how many at cgarchitect use a legit/illegit copy of max/vray/photoshop

[Devin Johnston]

I'd venture a guess that the number is somewhere around 95%, I remember back in college you could get any kind of software you needed just by asking your local studio software pimp.

[AJLynn]

Out of all 48,000 members? That might be a conservative estimate.

[Devin Johnston]

Yea...but who really knows.

[Jonathan Sanchez]

I wonder what effect would it have in the industry, if Autodesk made their programs crack-proof.

[Tommy L]

It would make no difference. Its a pointless discussion. Unless a company the size of Crystal is using hacked software. For a small company or freelancer, software costs are a minmal expense in the bigger picture. One thing that might happen is better development of freeware.

[Jonathan Sanchez]

I disagree Tom. I've worked in many Architectural/Rendering companies, and they've all used hacked software. Now think of the 48,000 something members of CGarchitect... a great deal of them working freelancers in poorer countries offering renderings for next to nothing.. u think they can afford the >3000 something dollars on max and another 800 on vray and photoshop and all those software?

Edited July 9, 2010 by sancheuz

[Tommy L]

well if you take the $3800 and spread it over 3 years (the software does not expire), I dont think it would affect their quotes that much, maybe 5 -10%(?). Real overhead is found in standard of living and currency value (ie: salary). Thats what everyone is actually complaining about when they say "I cant compete with China".

The fact that some people dont pay for software is galling, but its kind of like when Americans blame the economy on illegal immigrants. People just need a bad-guy to blame.

The 5 firms Ive worked in (including me as a freelancer) have all used kosher software. Maybe one or two hacked plugins, but the major pieces (max, AdobeCS and 3rd party engines) have all been legal.

 

I know Jeff (rightly) disapproves of discussing or endorsing illegal practice on this forum, but perhaps there is room for an anonymous journalistic article written by someone on the other side of the issue. I think it would be a valuable exercise; to see the profit margins and viablity of 3rd world operators if everything was above board. To see the underbelly of the Asian graphics market. How much is backstreet chop-shops, how much is work from home and how much is big forms in shiny offices?

[Jonathan Sanchez]

I agree with you tommy in a theoretical world... but I believe though that a big percentage of artist out there would not even be in the field.. if it wasn't because they could get their hands on a free copy of max/vray. Many "basement chumps" are just that because they got their hands on free copy. There is way too much supply(artist) and way too little demand. Part of the reason, imo, why there is so much supply is because every kid and his dog here and in the rest of the world has a copy of max.

 

I agree with you about doing some sort of piece on the subject.. I think it's an important issue that our industry is facing.

[Devin Johnston]

I've noticed lately that some of the programs I'm using validate them selves every time they are run by connecting to a server, I don't know how hard this would be to crack but it seems like a good active security measure that might stop some of this.

[StompinTom]

I agree with the idea that the wider industry (and not just this industry) is turning more and more towards contract or freelance workers on a case-by-case basis. It saves the company a LOT of trouble (not having to pay idle employees during a work drought, for example) and usually gets the job done quicker since they're usually deadline/goal oriented jobs versus salary.

[ihabkal]

I think we wandered into a different subject.

let's get back to price, and the future of our business. When I first came to Lebanon I charged 2 grands per rendering, I got no local clients. now I am charging under $500 locally, I have too much work my wife helps me, and I keep firing clients. Price is everything for freelancers. Large jobs with huge budgets go to studios.

 

Also about Chinal and the Middle East competing, this is just plain stupid. everythign about it is STUPID. Haven't you been reading yahoo news? China's cost of living is increasing 10 to 25% every year for the last 4 years. Most companies are raising wages to keep workers from striking. Sooner or later the Chinese will have to charge much more to survice their economy. I have always said that if you need a nice house and car and family you will charge the same, houses in large cities wether in Africa, China or the US cost the same. no wait, the US cost much less now. Cars cost much more outside the US. So unless you're just starting and work from a cardboard box you need to charge more wherever you live. It is called globalization.

 

 

ANd another thing, I used to own a house in the US that I bought at 135 grands. My house here in Lebanon is a smaller appartment with no yard, electricity has rolling and non scheduled blackouts all the time, my kids feet are swollen from mosquito bites and the water tastes funny, and the locals are noisy, very noisy, violent people and my appartment is worth half a million bucks. How about that? IMO the CHinese 3d artist that scare you with their cheap prices are only farmers or students. ANd the Canadian or American students are doing the same working cheap from their mom's bedrooms and competing with you. Chinese top artists charge as nuch or more than any of us.

[Nic H]

i think it may be time for you to step away from arch vis ihab - seems to be getting to you!

 

if you hate lebanon you should.....leave?

you must be doing allright with a half million $ apartment though

 

i rent a small room in london for an extortionate amount.

[Jonathan Sanchez]

Ihab might have a point.... sooner or later there must be balance, so it's safe to say that the cost of living in asia and the middle east will balance out with the U.S./Europe and therefore prices will be more equal throughout the world. However, although as of yet, outsourcing is something that is affecting artist in more expensive countries.... I think the bigger problem in our industry though is the huge supply and the lack of demand. Which is why we were talking about why there are so many artists... largely because they can all get max/vray for free. Rules of supply and demand... all those artist undercutting eachother make prices go down.

[ihabkal]

i think it may be time for you to step away from arch vis ihab - seems to be getting to you!

 

 

Where did you get that from?

 

 

if you hate lebanon you should.....leave?

 

I wish. I love Canada and the US. I don't care if there is no money there, I would leave everythign and go today if I could. It's those tough immigration laws!

[pipjor]

Where did you get that from?

 

 

 

I wish. I love Canada and the US. I don't care if there is no money there, I would leave everythign and go today if I could. It's those tough immigration laws!

just become 1 of the 30 milllion + other illegals over here, the president doen't care..infact he's suing AZ for trying to enforce immigration laws.

[ihabkal]

I lived in the US for 5 years under a work visa, when it expired I left willingly. It is not in my system as a professional to break laws willingly or to defy the laws of a country that harbors me. I thrive to become a model citizen of Canada someday since their immigration laws are much looser than the US.

[wasteland giant]

I lived in the US for 5 years under a work visa, when it expired I left willingly. It is not in my system as a professional to break laws willingly or to defy the laws of a country that harbors me. I thrive to become a model citizen of Canada someday since their immigration laws are much looser than the US.

 

 

shoulda found yourself an american wife in those 5 years ~~

 

I'm semi serious here.

[Jonathan Sanchez]

I understand Ihab... I have many immigrant friends here that are illegaly and I would not be able to go through what they go through, having to be careful with everything they do, afraid constantly that they get caught.... can't even buy a house.... but I tell u that the our field here is not doing too well. Just look at the gallery, rare to see an american posting an image.

[ihabkal]

shoulda found yourself an american wife in those 5 years ~~

 

I'm semi serious here.

 

Funny anecdote: that was the same thing an army officer proposed to me when I visited a recruitment center when I was there. But I was already married. I always tell my wife jokingly that it's her eparents fault for not immigrating when it was much easier and giving her citizenship.

[Iain Denby]

Just come to this thread, and what's interesting to me as a nearly 50 year old (!), is that I had all the same concerns about 10 years ago, and I was worried about the new kids on the block charging very little to get work, and the overseas' threat etc. Now those 'new kids on the block' are most of you (judging by your ages) who have those same concerns.

 

The king is dead, long live the king