HTPC or other streaming systems....

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

This post is mainly directed towards Andrew, but I want to keep it open to all, or anyone running an HTPC (Home Theater PC.) I am curious about experiences, and favorite applications to run. I think it performance varies greatly from setup to setup. My system is mainly composed of leftovers from an upgrade, so I may be lagging in several areas.

 

I am also curious to see if people have plans of adding Boxee Box, Roku, Apple TV, Google TV, or some other system to their home entertainment centers in the near future.

 

Setting up your own HTPC can be expensive compared to a dedicated box, and truth be told, I cut corners on lots of parts to try and make it more affordable.

 

Also, I would be curious to hear about experience with hardware that they are using in their HTPC configuration.

 

____________________

 

My setup:

AMD 3200 X64 (old single core chip circa 2004?)

Lan Ultra Party 4 (circa 2004?)

2gb of RAM (circa 2004?)

Radeon 5670 HD (2010)

280gb main drive (2009)

350 x2 RAID 1 (2007)

Logitech DiNova Mini (2010)

Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-2250 Tuner Card (2010)

LiteOn Blu-Ray (2010)

Zalman HD501 HTPC Case (2010)

 

__________________________

 

What I run, or have tested:

 

Windows Media Center

Internet Explorer

Hulu Desktop

Boxee

Zune

iTunes

Amazon Desktop Player

 

__________________________

 

Hardware Review:

 

Everything is fairly standard on my hardware, but the CPU and RAM may be a bit low for what I want to do. Some of these parts are simply left over from old machines, and recycled into the HTPC.

 

I can’t say that I am happy with the Logitech DiNova Mini. I am definitely on the look out for a better solution in this area. Recommendations…???

 

 

Software Review:

 

When I set up the system I was hoping to use Windows Media Center as a DVR, but I learned the harsh reality of needing a cable card instead of a TV tuner card, and basically needing to pay Comcast in order to do this. I haven’t fully researched it yet, but using my system with Comcast as a DVR does not appear to be an easy feat.

 

Windows Media Center in general is still providing some use, but not as much as I hope. At least yet. We do use it to play DVD’s and to watch Netflix streaming. Windows Media Center has a lot of potential, but it is another one of those apps that I don’t know what Microsoft’s plans are.

 

I have tried Firefox, Chrome, and Internet Explorer as a browser on the system. So far I have liked Internet Explorer over Firefox and Chrome for the HTPC. I do not like Internet Explorer for my day to day desktop browsing, but for the HTPC I prefer Internet Explorer. The reason being is that Explorer can go full screen with no “chrome.” It makes for a really nice seamless browsing. I think there are extensions for Chrome that will make it full screen, but I have not tested them.

 

Hulu Desktop has been a disappointment for me. The video playback is extremely choppy on my system, and the desktop video actually delivers lower quality than I get if I stream through their website. I am really curious if the problem with this app lies in my system, or if it is a problem with the app in general.

 

Boxee, …it is what it is. It has a great deal of potential, but I wasn’t really able to stream internet TV through it. The individual apps are quite interesting, but they do have a few problems themselves. Mainly that they don’t seem to be able to remember where you are at in a show. If they could accomplish that it would be a lot better experience for myself.

 

Zune, …I have been fairly impressed with this software, though some of the browsing methods could use refined. They often limit you to a very small space where you can’t see many album’s at one. Overall this is my main music player on the system. They do some great things by providing information, photos, and related items. Also, for me this app feels very natural when viewing from the couch.

 

iTunes, …I haven’t had the best of luck, but I am looking into it further. I have always been a bit put off by the slow feeling that I think iTunes has when navigating. For me, the slow feeling is even present on my solid state drive system.

 

Amazon, …similar experience to Hulu. Decent playback directly through website, but the desktop player leaves a lot to be desired. One thing I do like about the desktop player is that the videos are downloaded to my computer, rather than streamed to my computer. That said, I have only bought 1 show through Amazon so I don’t have a lot of experience with it.

[Frosty]

Xmbc!

[AJLynn]

Well... maybe your hardware just isn't handling the software. I'd be concerned about its ability to handle DVR-ish tasks. Sorry, no time to research right now, got to write a paper. You can see what I'm using on 3DATSTech under the Home PC article - it's hooked up to the TV over HDMI and plays my video. Super quiet, which is good.

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

Xmbc!

 

I always see the XMBC logo when I launch Boxee, but I never looked into it more than that. I did some quick research, and it looks as though Boxee is built using XMBC code and database, but differs slightly in what you can do with it at the end. XMBC manages the media on your machine, Boxee tries to stream and socialize.

 

I now have XMBC installed, and plan on tinkering with it. Hopefully I get enough experience. I typically don't store movies locally, just music.

 

Here is a Venn diagram from Lifehacker explaining the overlap and individualities of XMBC / Boxee / Windows Media Center...

http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/17/2010/02/venn-diagram-1-3.jpg

Article > http://lifehacker.com/5462275/which-media-center-is-right-for-you-boxee-xbmc-and-windows-media-center-compared

 

I wish either XMBC or Boxee supported TV Tuners. I was surprised when I first learned that Boxee didn't.

Edited September 29, 2010 by Crazy Homeless Guy

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

Well... maybe your hardware just isn't handling the software. I'd be concerned about its ability to handle DVR-ish tasks. Sorry, no time to research right now, got to write a paper. You can see what I'm using on 3DATSTech under the Home PC article - it's hooked up to the TV over HDMI and plays my video. Super quiet, which is good.

 

You are right. My original plan was to start a cycle of taking components from my desktop as I finished with them, and upgrade this computer along the way. But, I think I waited to ling on these components, so an upgrade will happen soon. (CPU/Motherboard/RAM)

 

I think the video card should be fine, but the older CPU probably explains why Hulu and Amazon Unbox both run so poorly in their downloaded versions. Both of those apps use Flash for video playback, and since Flash is said to be heavy on the CPU requirements, it makes logical sense.

 

My system is fairly quiet, but only after I unhooked the factory case fans. They were supposedly quiet, but that didn't prove to be true. I have a heavy duty CPU cooler on it. As of yet I haven't had overheating issues.

 

Have you managed to use your machine as a DVR, or do you use another box for that? I started to try and get Comcast to communicate with it, but that process is still over my head. I think I am going to drop Comcast/Infinity anyway and go with a dish.

 

I am not comfortable enough to unplug from the entire Cable/Dish system yet. Maybe I will give that more serious consideration once I upgrade the hardware. Which means I should probably not skimp to much, otherwise I will wind up back where I am now.

Edited September 29, 2010 by Crazy Homeless Guy

[Scott Dombrowski]

I've been using a HTPC in one form or another for quite a few years, though I think I'm classified more as an extended casual user than a hardcore power user. Most of the hardware is hand-me-down stuff from desktop upgrades. Here's my setup and functionality:

 

CPU: Athlon 64 X2 - 5000+

MB: Asus M2N-E

RAM: 2GB

GFX: Radeon HD3450

HDDs: one system drive (don't remember the size), one 200GB photo/music drive, one 1TB video drive

Sound: SB Audigy 2

Tuner: Silicondust HDHomerun

Keyboard/Mouse: Old Gyration RF compact wireless keyboard and mouse

 

This is connected via HDMI to a Syntax Olevia 42" screen. The CPU is in the basement directly below the TV, so I just got some longer cables and ran them up through the floor inside the wall to the AVR and TV. Having the CPU in the basement means that sound is not a factor, which is good because the fans are anything but quiet. The AVR is an old Pioneer something or other... I forget the model, but it does Dolby Digital and DTS 5.1 surround sound.

 

For functionality, up until a few weeks ago (more on this later) it had been used as a DVR with Win 7 media center as well as a home automation / security controller. W7MC is polished, but not perfect. There was often a lag in several areas of the interface (most notably in the tv guide) which was just enough to make you wonder if you had actually pushed the button on the remote. So you push it again, but by that time the first push registered and the second push quickly closes whatever you just opened. Highly annoying.

 

Our TV service is technically through Comcast, but only because service was already on when we moved in a few years ago and we never "fixed the glitch." The cable is plugged directly into the HDHR which pulls in whatever clear QAM signal Comcast decides to broadcast that day. It's pretty much the basic cable plan with the perk of all the local channels being in HD. QAM also has the amusing side effect of being able to pull in a few On Demand channels, but only if a neighbor is watching something on it. This meant that when the neighbor paused the tv to go get a drink or go to the bathroom, it paused for us too. It became a fun game to try to guess which neighbor's On Demand feed we were watching. Comcast recently switched things up, so although we still get basic cable and locals in HD, I haven't seen any On Demand feeds for a while. It's not exactly like I can call to complain. But other than the interface lags the HDHR coupled with W7MC worked great as a DVR.

 

We get movies on Blu-Ray through Netflix, and this has been a source of both high and low Wife Acceptance Factor. I'd rip the movie as an .iso to the hard drive and send the disc back, building up a small buffer of movies to watch. WAF = high. I never researched a way to integrate Blu-Ray .iso playback into the W7MC interface, so would have to mount the .iso as a virtual drive and play it through PowerDVD. WAF = acceptable. Having CPU in the basement also means having to go down to the basement to put the disc in the drive to watch a movie I haven't ripped yet. WAF = low, GAF (guest/visitor acceptance factor) = low.

 

Streaming Netflix works fine, Hulu is better on their website than their desktop app. Having all of our CDs ripped to the HD and available for whole house audio = high WAF, though the extra time involved in turning on the TV to load up iTunes brings the WAF down a bit.

 

So as I had mentioned, the HTPC is currently non-functional. The system drive died, so I'm testing out some alternatives for our media needs. I bought an LG BD570 blu-ray player to take care of the online streaming (Netflix and Pandora) and physical disc playback. It will also stream media from a DLNA server, so the idea is that I'll still be able to play local music and video files. I've repurposed the HTPC as a Window Home Server and would like to test DVR functionality with SageTV. Haven't gotten to that point yet. The BD570 has been a mixed experience. When it works, it's great. Streaming Netflix is the clearest I've seen. Pandora doesn't time out like it does on a computer. However, I've had to reset the machine several times because Netflix will hang on the loading screen and lock up. Deactivating Netflix and reactivating it on their website has been the only solution. WAF = very low. Also, there's no way to search their instant streaming library, so unless you find something in their seemingly random suggestions, you have to go to their website to search for something and add it to your instant streaming queue in order for it to show up on the BD570. WAF = low. Because of this, I'll probably send the thing back and resurrect the W7MC. To take care of the physical disc playback, I may try putting the Blu-Ray drive in an external USB enclosure. I already have USB available in the media cabinet for the remote's IR receiver.

 

So I guess the bottom line was that lagging interface aside, W7MC takes care of everything we need and the older hardware I have seems to handle it all. We don't watch much live TV, and what we do watch/record is covered by the HDHR. If we didn't have the Comcast feed, those needs would still be covered by hooking up an antenna to the HDHR and getting everything over the air. I'd love to lower my power usage and get a low power server with DVR capability and a Roku/WDTV type of device, but the budget doesn't really allow for much experimenting right now, so I make do with what I have.

[Frosty]

I always see the XMBC logo when I launch Boxee, but I never looked into it more than that. I did some quick research, and it looks as though Boxee is built using XMBC code and database, but differs slightly in what you can do with it at the end. XMBC manages the media on your machine, Boxee tries to stream and socialize.

 

I now have XMBC installed, and plan on tinkering with it. Hopefully I get enough experience. I typically don't store movies locally, just music.

 

Here is a Venn diagram from Lifehacker explaining the overlap and individualities of XMBC / Boxee / Windows Media Center...

http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/17/2010/02/venn-diagram-1-3.jpg

Article > http://lifehacker.com/5462275/which-media-center-is-right-for-you-boxee-xbmc-and-windows-media-center-compared

 

I wish either XMBC or Boxee supported TV Tuners. I was surprised when I first learned that Boxee didn't.

 

I think XBMC can handle a tuner. I know it can play video from a server share as thats what I do. It can also bring in video/audio streams although there is no direct Netflix hookup. Look into add ons "svn repo installer". The interface for adding these elements is kind of klunky and confusing, but I havent found anything easier for playing movies. Also, XBMC works on Ubutnu and that might help speed up your system.

 

My wife loves it and uses it easily by hereself. She finds Boxee more difficult.

 

Have you looked into Mythbuntu?

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

 

 

I never researched a way to integrate Blu-Ray .iso playback into the W7MC interface, so would have to mount the .iso as a virtual drive and play it through PowerDVD. WAF = acceptable. Having CPU in the basement also means having to go down to the basement to put the disc in the drive to watch a movie I haven't ripped yet. WAF = low, GAF (guest/visitor acceptance factor) = low.

 

I won't condone the practice of ripping disks from Netflix, but as long as they are not distributed on the net I would say do whatever risk you want to take. I would have recommended keeping that information off the board. It is a touchy area... but in reality, how much different is it than DVR'ing.

 

But I digress, .....you might want to try this.... I think it mounts ISO's on the fly through Windows Media Center. If you Google, I think there are also various plug-ins used for reading ISO's into Windows Media Center.

http://www.howtogeek.com/howto/11071/automatically-mount-and-view-iso-files-in-windows-7-media-center/

 

When you are DVR'ing off of Comcast, are you abel to bring it directly digitally, or are you converting it to a pure analog signal, and then bringing it in? I don't really know what I am talking about in this area, but from what I have read it sounded as though you would need to bring it in as pure analog, and then convert back to a digital signal?

Edited October 2, 2010 by Crazy Homeless Guy

[AJLynn]

I guess you could use something like to record a signal off a cable box... but it seems like an awful lot of work.

 

ISOs are easy. You can play them VLC or just convert to MP4 and load into media manager of choice.

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

Right now I am looking at upgrading to this...

https://secure.newegg.com/WishList/MySavedWishDetail.aspx?BundleExist=N&ID=11625814&ChangeQty=0

 

It uses a AMD Phenom 9850 quad core. I admit the only reason I am looking at this chip is because of the price tag. Damn cheap.

 

I think it will do the job I need it to, but I am a bit worried because several reviews says it runs hot. This means that I may need to plug back in my case fans, which will cause the noise to come back.

 

Though maybe this is the better budget processor.. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116093

 

I can't decide whether it is worth it or not to go better and drop a $200 processor into the machine.

Edited December 12, 2010 by Crazy Homeless Guy

[AJLynn]

I can't see the first Newegg link - if it's a wish list you need to make it public. But that AMD is a 125W processor, which is a lot for an HTPC, it will make for loud cooling. And I don't know about that model of the Freezer but I used to have a Freezer 7 Pro and it was pretty loud. So I think I like that Intel - it's pretty much a 2.9GHz Core 2 Duo at 65W, which is very low.

 

A dual core i3 would be another option - not quite as cheap but the power management in the 1156 chips is very good. Add a Thermaltake Silent 1156 cooler and some Arctic Silver 5 and it will be cool and quiet.

[Scott Dombrowski]

When you are DVR'ing off of Comcast, are you abel to bring it directly digitally, or are you converting it to a pure analog signal, and then bringing it in? I don't really know what I am talking about in this area, but from what I have read it sounded as though you would need to bring it in as pure analog, and then convert back to a digital signal?

 

The Comcast connection is digital. The coax RG6 cable comes off the telephone pole in the back yard, into the house, and plugs straight into the HDHomerun which is, in turn, plugged into my house's network switch. Any computer on my home network can access either of the two tuners in the HDHR just like it was a normal USB or PCI tuner card. Pretty cool piece of tech, and one of my better investments. I skipped a few days of electrical engineering school, so I can't explain the theory behind the acronyms, but my Comcast feed is a Clear QAM signal and both the HDHR and my TV have Clear QAM capable tuners. Therefore, no cable boxes or conversion needed.

 

Thanks for the link about .iso integration into Media Center. I'll check it out.

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

I am back around to working on the HTPC. I wound up going the i3 route. I found a black friday deal on one under $100, so I jumped on it. The upgrades are... i3 CPU, Asus main board, 4gb gSkills DDR1600 RAM , Thermaltake Silent1156 CPU Cooler. and a 40gb SSD main drive.

 

I have everything up and running, and the most of the software reinstalled. The upgrade was worth it. As I am typing this I am watching Hulu Desktop,...The Office (British Version,) Season 2, Ep. 1. It is playing perfectly, no hesitation or frame dropping that I was experieing when using the older AMD 3200 chip, and the DDR333 RAM.

 

I haven't watched Netflix yet, but I am going to assume that there will be no problems with it, since there were none before. The Hulu streaming doesn't provide as clear of a image as Netflix, I haven't actually looked at what the 'high' resolution setting really means, but my gut reaction is that it is not as high as what Netflix is.

 

..which leads to the difference. I beleive Netflix uses Silverlight, and Hulu uses Flash. Flash requires a more powerful CPU than Silverlight to decode video. I am guessing the faster RAM comes into play here also. It is no wonder that Apple is resisting Flash on the iPhone. Flash requires a lot of power to decode and play back smoothly and without the system to decode it smoothly it becomes a crappy experience. With my older system I basically wrote Hulu off because the playback was so bad. I think Apple might actually be doing Adobe a favor by resisting Flash until the mobile phone processors are actually fast enough to properly decode it.

 

...or maybe Adobe just needs to revisit the Flash technology, and streamline the decoding by offsetting some of it on the GPU. If I understand correctly, it is all CPU decoding now.

 

Anyway, I had a few problems when building the system. I messed up the CPU cooler attachements by not reading the directions carefully, which means I am a bit concerned about whether or not it is seated properly. The temperature is holding between 32 idles and roughly 46 under moderate load, which I feel are both below average in the greater realm of CPU temperatures.

 

I attached the bolts wrong and was pushing and pushing trying to get the legs to attach before I realized the problem, and moved the bolts tot he other side. In the process of that I ran a risk of scratching the board and scraping the cpu paste thin. If I did either I think it is only the later of the two. I can't imagine that paste not getting messed up. I was really trying to force these connections together so the cooler was sliding all around, and angle up like a wedge that cut in and scraped the paste.

 

The CPU cooler itself also provided problems sitting in the case. As you can see from the attachment, I needed to modify it. I used a hacksaw, and wacked off the tips of the pipes. This created open ends instead of the closed ends that it had before.

 

I might switch out the CPU cooler to a different one. My previous was a Zalman and to my memory it was a tad quieter, but that cold just be a distorted memory. The modification of cutting the pipes off could possibly make it run louder by forcing the fan to run more to keep it cool, but my feelings are that heat escaping out the tops of the pipe are probably only going to effect actual fan speeds on a very minimal level. ....and the CPU cooler faced is possible to thin in areas which could be making the fan run louder, but again, I am a bit skeptical on how much a thin paste job will make actual rpm's of the fan increase. I would think fan design, build quality, and speed will effect the noise more than bringing the cpu temperature from 40 to 45 degrees Celsius.

[AJLynn]

The most recent versions of Flash can, in some circumstances, offload video decoding to the video card (assuming you have the right kind of video card) which may decrease power consumption. But last time I saw this tested, a firm doing browser performance testing was noticing resource spikes and found Flash to be a big problem. They then ran power consumption tests with Flash enabled and disabled - and this was just routine browsing so the Flash content was ads and not full screen video or anything - and disabling Flash reduced system power load by 13 watts. (!) When I saw this, I decided Apple was on to something. (Since I can't imagine anything I'd actually need to use Flash for on my phone, having it installed would only serve to convert battery life into ads.)

 

But anyway, yeah, in my experience Silverlight on Netflix has tended to use less CPU than Flash on Hulu to play similar quality video.

 

WRT coolers I've been recommending that Thermaltake for size and practicality, and because it is quieter than most. (It can be improved by the addition of Arctic Silver thermal paste.) To go quieter what you need is one with: (1) more weight of metal, and (2) larger fan. The more metal, the less air flow you need, and the larger the fan, the lower RPMs to get the air flow. Fan RPMs are what cause noise. (The quietest fans I've found are the 120mm Scythe brand with fluid dynamic bearings.)