Conceptual Design - Revit and Max

[Bruce Hart]

Hey all,

I've been working as an in-house modeller for an Architectural firm since 2003. A lot of my work involves assisting the design architects to flesh out a design on the model, and producing some (hopefully) nice renders at the end, in the often short time available. My work is more design orientated rather than producing marketing imagery from finished designs. An architect will often sit beside me all day, as we work up the design together. We often just start with rough hand drawn floor plates and go from there. We try countless architectural options that are needed to be modelled quickly in seconds or a few minutes. This process requires a LOT of patience on my part, but I'm used to it

 

The software used has progressed from regular AutoCAD, AutoCAD ADT/Architecture, and in the last few years MAX exclusively. Having been in a bit of a CAD mindset, I used to shy away from modelling in MAX, but not I could not imagine going back to CAD now, due to the fluid nature of MAX modelling, and the viewing environment.

 

In the last couple of years we have been moving to the Revit environment more and more for documentation. Some of my managers would like to see me use Revit for conceptual design modelling, however it seems to me to be a much slower process. I'm not an experienced Revit user - and therein lies the problem. There are some knowledgeable Revit users in my office, but even with them, the concept design process can be slow and painful. I would even say that some "boxier" design solutions are being settled upon, because more complex solutions are too time consuming or difficult to draw in Revit. My company does a lot of retail/commercial buildings, and the specific models I make feature a surprising lack of standard architectural components than you can get from a drop down list. The attached images are typical example of model concepts, that are built on the fly.

 

I'm not suggesting Revit can't make these shapes, but it seems much faster in MAX to explore various design options - and this has been confirmed to me by design architects who have worked with both experienced Revit and MAX modellers. If I were doing more regular buildings, like houses for example - it would be a different case.

 

I have been experimenting with exporting MAX geometry to Revit via the SAT format so that the MAX design model can be modified/used in Revit to output documentation, but with limited success.

 

If you work in a similar Revit orientated office, I would like to hear your experiences about what happens in the early concept design phase, and any useful MAX to Revit workflows (if there are any).

[carlotristan3d]

Interesting workflow as most designers shun revit during conceptual stage. The software of choice hands down is Sketchup.

[Macer]

We are also facing a similar problem as we move accross to Revit. Revit conceptual tools have improved quite a bit in the last release or two, but there is a new package that could be worth investigating too - Vasari. It is an Autodesk product, currently in the labs: (http://labs.autodesk.com/utilities/vasari/).

 

It is being touted as Revit light, with a large focus on conceptual development workflow and energy analysis, and it is fully compatable with full Revit as you would expect.

 

Have a look at some of the videos such as this one:

 

It certainly looks interesting, maybe not the answer you are looking for, but it may have a place in your office, even if it isn't with you!

 

My limited (so far) experience in Revit to Max shows linking to be an ok option, but you need to fiddle with the units as Revit is (internally) set to use feet and scaling of materials can't be over ridden with UVW maps. You may have to Reset Xform first.

 

I'll be keeping an eye on this thread to see if any other alternatives come to light....

[Bruce Hart]

Thanks for the reply,

that Vasari looks interesting - didn't know about that one. As you mentioned the modelling tools of Revit are improving every release, and hopefully will continue. The main trouble I've had with the MAX to Revit workflow is of course is translating faceted polygonal geometry of MAX to the NURBS solid environment of Revit. Sometimes it works so you can cut sections through, but it is not particularly editable in Revit.

 

I've had a good go at mass modelling in Revit, but I miss the advantages of all the MAX modifiers like FFD, bend, noise, displacement box/meshsmooth modelling, and so on, plus the ability to control the tessellation of the geometry to keep the whole thing light and workable. I've done masterplans in Max that come in at 450k polygons and an equivalent size model made in Revit with less detail, amounts to over 5 million polygons. This is mostly due to the way Revit tessellates curved surfaces. (but I've winged about this before)

 

The main concern that some of my managers have is that if the design is going to be documented in Revit, then the building will be modelled twice - once at the conceptual stage, and then at least once again in Revit to produce documentation. They would like to see the initial model re-used somehow. I counter that the advantage of modelling is MAX is that you can try more design options quickly, to achieve a better result. Plus the early concept stage model will differ substantially from the final constructed design anyway, after going through the Design Development/Value Management process.

 

I've used Sketchup quite a bit, but I feel it is cumbersome when it comes to making organic curved shapes.

 

Does anyone here use Rhino for concept modelling? If so - how does that geometry translate to Revit?

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

My experience is very similar to this thread, but besides Max/Revit/SketchUp/and now Valasari, we also mix into Rhino.

 

I hear the marketing that Revit can be used in a conceptual modeling sense, and see the tools of how it can be used in a conceptual modeling sense, I here the Revit guru's in our office say it can be used in a conceptual modeling sense, ....but I still haven't seen or worked on a project where I would consider the conceptual modeling that is done in Revit be flowing and more or less free form. Granted I haven't searched out these examples, but the examples pointed out to me have not influenced my feeling a great deal.

 

Where I am I going with this, seeing real world proof, is believing. If your project managers can show a project that has been truly designed in that manner that fits the type of architecture you are doing, then they are on to something. If the can not then they are drinking someones marketing Kool Aid.

 

At the end of the day it isn't about what it can or might be able to do, it is about what is had done in real world production. A production environment that had budget, quality, and time deadlines.

[BVI]

Many of my clients are using Revit for conceptual models - it allows them to proceed to actual drawings in the same software suite in minimal time.

 

I have a client who is using sketchup and Revit - apparently they have found a good balance with .obj - they detail in Revit, and the design architect then masses in sketchup - makes changes etc and moves it back to Revit (which I didn't think was feasable) and so on.

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

We are preparing to start an airport competition in which we are going to try and do all massing and conceptual studies in Revit. The airport project design director typically like a gestural swoop or curve to the concourse design, so I will soon get a closer look at how well we can utilize Revit in tis fashion.

 

I can post back my opinion later, but it will be at least 3 or so weeks before we are at the first internal benchmark point for the competition.

 

I hope it works because it should streamline our process more, and let the designers work more on the actual model that will be used for renderings and animation.

[BVI]

We are preparing to start an airport competition in which we are going to try and do all massing and conceptual studies in Revit. The airport project design director typically like a gestural swoop or curve to the concourse design, so I will soon get a closer look at how well we can utilize Revit in tis fashion.

 

I can post back my opinion later, but it will be at least 3 or so weeks before we are at the first internal benchmark point for the competition.

 

I hope it works because it should streamline our process more, and let the designers work more on the actual model that will be used for renderings and animation.

 

I think thats most beneficial to the 3D guys - I think the architects resolve the model much further in Revit than they would in Sketchup.

[Bruce Hart]

We are preparing to start an airport competition in which we are going to try and do all massing and conceptual studies in Revit. The airport project design director typically like a gestural swoop or curve to the concourse design, so I will soon get a closer look at how well we can utilize Revit in tis fashion.

 

I look forward to hearing how you go. We've done competitions also with some crazy organic shapes, and I can tell you that MAX modelling tools were far more flexible than Revit's for what we were doing.