Help! Rival firm is lowball quoting!

[MikeBenoit]

Hi guys,

 

This is my predicament:

 

I work at a fairly new architectural viz firm. We only have a few members, but we have skill so we've been able to do jobs well, despite the inexperienced management.

 

Now the problem is that there's this company down the road from us that does visual effects for movies who have started making plans with one of our 'managers' to take over our client base and give that manager a cut. So this so-called manager of ours got them to quote on one of the projects we recently made up a quote for. They had no data other than a description like the one I'm going to give.

 

If my Boss had more experience in the industry he'd realise that the quote they gave was designed to put all his staff out of a job and steal all his clients. This 'manager' of ours has him believing that we are quoting too high.

 

Please help me by giving a rough quote on the following job. It doesn't have to be accurate. But rough time and amount would be great. I need this or my job is in extreme peril. I would do the same for you!

 

Here is the job:

 

Details: A 5 minute high detail animation of 8 Km of road (with existing and then a mostly rebuilt proposed improvement), with photosims and car movement simulation. Modelling environment to be 50 m on both sides of roadway. Including buildings, vegetation and realistic lighting. Also part of that quote is voice-over and music for the final movie.

 

If you could help me out on this it would be greatly appreciated. Please state whether your numbers are in US dollars.

 

Mike Benoit

[Ernest Burden III]

What was your firm's number, and what was the competitor's?

[MikeBenoit]

Ernest,

 

If I told you that it would influence anyone on this forums possible quote. Let's just say it was less than half of ours.

 

If you are going to post a quote, please be realistic. I don't need more lowball quotes

 

Thanks,

 

 

Mike Benoit

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

i don't know your position in the company, or what the term company entails for your operation. maybe the manager is the owner, part owner, or just an employee.

 

i fear that the other studio may be able to produce it in less time than your studio. i am generalizing here, but i think arch viz artists (including myself) get caught up in excessive detail, which may slow us down when compared to artists/modelers from other areas. ...arch viz people are more of an asset to an architect than to a development group. the architect wants to know exactly how the building is going to look down to 1/4" accuracy. the developer want a sexy image to sell the project, even if it fudges quite a bit. the movie studio is going to be in a better mind set to deliver this. maybe i am off base here.

 

...back to the chase, i think you, your company, and other employees need to really examine your relationship with this manager. it sounds like he is looking out for his best interest.

 

without knowing more, it is difficult for me to slap a number on this. i typically do my proposals by the number of scenes/space i have to build. i don't know how close you are going to get to your new buildings, or if you are going to view them just from the road. 8 km is a long stretch, especially if your in a city.

 

actually come to think of it, if you are in a city, 8km straight in 5 minutes would put you at about 60 mph. which means you really wouldn't see diddly squat. are you planning on doing pulled back aerial shots to show the distance. if so, you have a lot more to build in the scene, or maybe you could mass more of it this way.

 

have you done a project like this before? ...maybe you can post it for reference. this project could be anywhere from $15000 to $50000. ...or more.

 

if the studio gave a low quote based purely on the text description they might really get burned.

[MikeBenoit]

Homeless Guy,

 

keep in mind that the road would be modelled twice. With very little reused for the proposed version.

 

If it wasn't clear from my original post, yes, this manager is out for their own interests. However our main boss has some past with this person and believes them to be honest. He's been convinced that we are overestimating. We are just as capable of delivering beauty shots, this isn't a millimeter detail model.

 

I'll give you a link to a piece by another company.

 

http://www.qewhalton.com/ (click on the large movie link)

 

 

I'm not sure how long this stretch is, but keep in mind the movie is the compressed web version and there would be a higher resultuon (at least 640x480) deliverable.

 

This is very similar to the project in question.

 

Thanks for your interest!

[alexg]

For a project with this kind of scope, the amount of modelling / rendering work done is amazing. Nice camera and nice modelling of the existing context.

IMO 5 mins render birdeye like this might be around 30-35k minimum without the voice over and site/survey expenses.

Anything lower than that is free labor.

[tcorbett]

I agree, it is a nice camera and decent modeling. Looks like they have some good overhead shots images that they are using as the main mapping / existing road. Even with the simplification, though, that is still no tiny feat.

 

It sounds like this company is pulling a Walmart - moving into an existing market and driving out all competition by undercutting the price. It makes enough money elsewhere to afford a loss in a new market segment. My advice? Don't try to beat their price, try to beat their product.

 

Manager's don't usually sell out their employers for no reason, and he is probably being played for a fool by this other company. Of course, if his boss has been presented with this case and can't see it, maybe it is time to send your resume to this other company.

[Ernest Burden III]

Ernest,

 

If I told you that...I don't need more lowball quotes

 

Your request for others to come up with numbers was your second post on this forum, so you do not have a reputation yet. It therefore caused me to look at your request with some caution. If you were to post the number your firm was asking then it would be easy for anyone to say 'sounds low', sounds about right. That is actually easier for the rest of us to do than come up with a number.

 

There may be more at play than you realize. It is not clear if you alerted your boss/firm owner to your suspicions and what his response was. Does he know you are posting this? If not, what would be his reaction to that news? In the end, you can only try to make things right. Some things are beyond our control.

 

The best revenge for lowballers and the clients that hire them is to simply stand back and watch them self-destruct. And, if they do NOT fail, then there is a lesson to be learned--you probably were overcharging.

 

 

I just handed in a set of renderings for a client in another region where renderings are much cheaper. The client wanted a 'better product' so hired me, agreeing to pay more than the local rate. But it was a discount from my usual rates in my local market. They just threw a few days of changes at me, which has me fairly angry. I don't feel like charging them more, since they are already feeiling like they are paying a lot, while I feel I shot myself in the foot for agreeing to the lower fee. Let the lowballers have it. If they can make a living on less than I charged, then they must be better renderers than I--or live in a refrigerator box under a highway bridge. Either way, they can have the next one.

[John Dollus]

Mike:

 

Funny thing! On the Discreet forum, someone named Dave Medlyn just posted the exact same project but stated that he wanted to know quotes for market research. Nothing was said about competitors or unethical managers....

Hmm...the contact info. from the other guy is a college in Canada. That might explain extremely low prices. Of course, that doesn't explain why someone with educational licenses is wanting a quote for commercial work....

[alexg]

Hmm.... that's interesting finding 2 ppl asking about the same project in the same forum. Maybe it is a just a quote research trying to find out how much an animation fee is?

[Ernest Burden III]

Hmm.... Maybe it is a just a quote research trying to find out how much an animation fee is?

 

That is obviously what I suspected, and why I suggested the original poster show his number first. Notice he declined to do so.

 

Who knows, maybe the story is exactly as he says it, maybe its an underhanded way to find out what others would get for a certain level of work. There is really no way to know. If the thread had been started by someone with an established reputation then the situation would be easier to figure out. It is interesting either way.

 

I cannot find time to even invoice my own clients, much less price animations for other people.

[alexg]

I cannot find time to even invoice my own clients, much less price animations for other people.

 

that's what happened to us too...... sometime we didn't invoice for wks after the work is finished, although we know that is the no.1 priority thing to do.