Best,Fast and Easy modelling solution for an arch. animation studio?

[callme_ash2001]

Hi All,

We need a proper guidance,suggestions and your experiences as well.we are an arch viz company, located in North India.

We are mainly into 3d arch animation and follow more or less same working method as what others do.we have different groups/departments for modelling,texturing,lighting..etc.

This thread/question is particular to modelling solution.We want to make our modelling such that it should be fast to clients and easy to our modellers.

Currently, we model everything in 3dmax.we've never faced any problems but in the cases where there are lots of changes to be done in short period of time and specially in buildings where the detail matters, we really want to find a solid solution for that.

 

---i know sketchup is fast & easy but Is it good for very detailed structures???

---which application you guys use (especially studios like neoscape,spine 3d)???

---what you do in the cases like above, where both,mandays and clients satisfaction matters most??

--Guide Us and share your experience as well.

 

Thank you,

Abhay Singh.

[notamondayfan]

I dont think there is one fast way / software, and I would say its down to the speed of yourselves, and the clients.

 

If speed is key, then ask your clients for final drawings. Any changes made after the final drawings have been submitted then say there should be an extension, or extra fees paid for overtime to hit the deadline.

 

Also just make sure you are as organised as possible, and model in a way that makes future changes easy. This is one of the reasons I usually rebuild models sent to me, as I know I can quickly modify my models, rather than messing around with someone elses crap dwg / sketchup models.

[BVI]

Check out modo from Luxology for modelling speed.

Max is great, but expensive in the long run.

[callme_ash2001]

@notamondayfan

thanks for your valuable time.

 

We always have to deal with architects of property.Architects are designers and they supposed to have ability to visualize:mad:.i dont know about the other countries but here in india they've set this trend in which they design while we make 3d of the same at the same time, so more frequent changes and it needs fast modelling.So, asking for final drawings is not a solution as every other architect of our client follows the same trend.Ofcourse, nobody wants to loose clients so we need to find a solution for this.

 

for eg sketchup can model same object in lesser steps then max(not in all cases,but yes its true).Moreover it is fast and easy but what are its limitations? if anybody is using it for a long time and specially for detail modelling then plz share.

 

@BVI

 

I'll check modo tomorrow and i'll try to find a workflow with cad dwg.

 

 

thanks for your replies..

[BVI]

Sketchup is great for rapid protyping and modelling, but the models it produces are not automatically ready for photoreal rendering in Max - there is stilla process to get the model cleaned up and workable.

 

I would suggest that you educate the client on using your 3Ds as a design exercise - they are the ones who should be using Sketchup and then passing that model onto you and not the other way around.

[Brodie Geers]

I've been using Sketchup for about 6 years or so starting back in school and for the last 4 years or so professionally. I work within a design-build firm in the design department. I can think of only 1 of 2 times I've ever had Construction Documents to work with so I know what you're talking about. The model becomes more like a physical study model which architects often use to develop the design. It's only about 1 day before the deadline that design (usually) stops and you're able to really finalize it into a true presentation image (and there may be multiple deadlines that coincide with various meetings between the architect and client.

 

I only do still images so there we diverge since you're working on animations it sounds like. What I would want to do in your situation is to stay in SU for as long as possible during the design process with the main model (rather than focusing on converting your SU model to 3ds Max for animation every time there's a change). It will be that conversion process that may slow you down the most. You could even send them simple SU animations to give them an idea of camera paths and such. 3ds Max 2011 has a great SU converter but I'm not sure how easy it would be to convert those standard materials that 3ds Max will bring in, to your rendering materials (Vray or whatever you're using) every time you export (I do it manually when I run into that scenario, but MAYBE there's a better way?).

 

Anyway, SU can handle whatever you throw at it in terms of architecture. I can't imagine an architectural model that SU couldn't handle. It would have to be very poorly modeled or something like a very detailed small city perhaps. My firm only does hospital architecture so in terms of size it's on the high end of size in terms of scale.

 

The limitations with SU come when you want to insert high poly models. That includes trees and cars for sure (I've had terrible luck with trees, it can handle a few high poly cars ok but it's not advisable) and to a lesser extent high poly furniture. For those sorts of things you'd want to export a model into 3ds Max and place those things in there. Then whenever you have changes import your SU architectural model into that scene with the high poly objects, cameras, camera paths, etc.

 

-Brodie

[callme_ash2001]

@brodie

 

your reply is convincing....can you show me some of your models/scenes modelled in sketchup??

Also, you must be using lot of scripts in sketchup for modelling structures.are there any set of scripts available???(like soulburn's scripts which is a collection of scripts for 3ds max...very handy).iam not familiar with sketchup community though i've seen lot of ruby scripts on internet.

 

 

i really appreciate your help

 

Thanks,

 

Abhay.

[Brodie Geers]

Unfortunately, all of my professional work belongs to my employer so I can't post them but if you want to send me your email I can give you some examples. The only thing I can really post are a few competition images I've done.

 

 

 

 

My process is a bit different from yours. These were each done pretty much the same way. I use SketchUp to model the architecture and site then send it to Maxwell Render's Studio. Then I'll export the high poly stuff from 3ds Max into Maxwell's studio as well where I'll combine everything and set up my cameras and such. So I've got a bit of an extra step involved that you won't since you're rendering straight from 3ds Max.

 

There are a few script packages but they're scripts made by separate companies that you buy and I don't happen to use them (not because they're not good but because they're typically not meant for archviz and/or I'm a cheap bastard even with the boss' money). It's a great idea though. I'm probably too lazy to sort through my plugins folder to weed out the garbage plugins as well as the non-free plugins I have but I could give you a pretty good list that you could look up if you'd like.

 

Sketchup has a great, thriving community at sketchucation.com there are a ton of regulars since I found the site years ago and still post on a very regular basis answering questions and stuff - among those are several of the very prolific script writers.

[TSuess]

Expect to see more and more clients providing their own models. I work for an Architecture firm in the Arch Viz department and I am rarely modeling at all anymore. Our design teams are using Revit. I have to clean things up a bit of course. Revit is quickly becoming an industry standard.

[Brodie Geers]

...I am rarely modeling at all anymore...

 

I find that pretty shocking. So your design team is giving you a fully functional model with accurate window dimensions, appropriate coping, etc? How about the site? Are you then rendering within Revit also, or are you exporting to some other program?

 

-Brodie

[TSuess]

Sorry I was somewhat misleading. I should have said "As the 3dsMax guy I am rarely the primary modeler" I still add details and clean geometry, making the model "render ready" but the major design changes are made in Revit before the model comes to me. This is specifically for exterior renderings.

 

For interiors I am always the primary modeler.

 

As for the site, I do model in Max.

[Nic H]

i would always model everything in 3Dmax - model it once model it properly. every time you change software / import / export you are wasting time and introducing problems.

 

sketchup creates awful geometry, second only to rhino and revit.

 

import your dwgs / or collapsed models and remodel over the top of these - it will save you headaches.

[Brodie Geers]

Gotcha, very interesting. So how do you handle changes made to the revit model after you've already done work in 3ds Max? Are you able to just delete the old revit parts, while retaining the 3ds max work and import the new model, then adjust the 3ds max geometry as necessary?

 

-Brodie

[TSuess]

i would always model everything in 3Dmax - model it once model it properly. every time you change software / import / export you are wasting time and introducing problems.

 

 

I respectfully disagree. The key is to know your workflow and keep it consistent. Our clients require that Revit models be produced. To throw this work away for the rendering process would be crazy. Revit is the future. Denying that is like denying the end of hand-drafting in 1988.

 

It helps to have smart Revit people on staff too I suppose.

[Nic H]

generally we would get a model in a format (revit etc) then remodel it so its clean fast and modfiable - ideally we dont receive anorther model after this point - if we do we would just import and remodel the singular offending piece.

 

but most of the time we ask for a sketch over a base render if there are changes to be made - is just easier.

 

it all depends on the kind of work you are doing - im sure the workflow for design development visualization (that requires running updates) would be different to animation or locked of still shots.

[TSuess]

Gotcha, very interesting. So how do you handle changes made to the revit model after you've already done work in 3ds Max? Are you able to just delete the old revit parts, while retaining the 3ds max work and import the new model, then adjust the 3ds max geometry as necessary?

 

Usually export Revit to .dwg and use File Link Manager in Max. The Revit people are good at excluding any of the geometry I do not need from the export. My max geometry, obviously, exists within the scene. If there is an edit we usually reload the entire Revit .dwg. Max allows you to maintain all material assigments.

 

This process requires an accurate Revit model..

[Brodie Geers]

i would always model everything in 3Dmax - model it once model it properly. every time you change software / import / export you are wasting time and introducing problems.

 

sketchup creates awful geometry, second only to rhino and revit.

 

import your dwgs / or collapsed models and remodel over the top of these - it will save you headaches.

 

I'd agree to the extent that adding another software into the mix will always add some sort of delay and that it can create headaches. Those issues must be weighed against the issues of remaining in 3ds Max exclusively though. I'd consider myself only a novice at 3ds Max but based on my limited knowledge it doesn't seem like a terribly good archviz modeler (blasphamy, I know). Not because it can't do everything, but because it CAN do everything (ie. it was not created primarily with hard surface modeling in mind). And it doesn't seem very easy to make quick sweeping edits created by design updates. As I say, these are my opinions only, maybe if I saw a highly proficient user who was able to model a building in 3ds Max in the same amount of time it takes to do it in SU, I'd change my mind.

 

As for the "awful geometry" you'd have to elaborate on that for me. In 3ds Max 2011 it seems to bring it in very well. It comes in just as it was in my SU file, even with SU components converted to instances. I wouldn't necessarily want to do any serious editing to the model in 3ds Max but I can't see why that would be necessary.

 

-Brodie

[Brodie Geers]

Usually export Revit to .dwg and use File Link Manager in Max. The Revit people are good at excluding any of the geometry I do not need from the export. My max geometry, obviously, exists within the scene. If there is an edit we usually reload the entire Revit .dwg. Max allows you to maintain all material assigments.

 

This process requires an accurate Revit model..

 

Very cool. We're just getting into revit in our production dept. Our design department is still struggling with autocad 2007. They're great designers but not so great drafters.

 

-brodie

[Nic H]

well like i said it depends on the kind of work and requirements you have - camera animation - construction animation - stills - interiors - masterplans - in house incremental design development - realtime - each requires a different level of detail and way of modelling and utilising the architects information.

 

for us modelling exclusively in 3dmax and remodelling most things works best.

 

the mindset of the architect is to model everything and pretend like its some kind of documentation (which it is - bless their black sweaters) however when you are making images out of pixels you and you dont see something - you delete it - or optimize it for fast efficient use in animation / texturing / lighting.

 

for example on a masterplan image you arent going to use the detailed villa revit model from the architect right in your scene x 2000 times - you are going to smash it into as few pieces as possible for the distance you see it - might even render it out flat and reproject it on boxes - if its close up then it will get a seperate model just for that bit. be specific for each situation / product.

 

when i say awful geometry - i mean triangulated dense meshes, insane levels of detail in things that dont need to be detailed. try slicing extra windows in a tesselated and bent facade - make a new one from splines or edit poly and you can very quickly change it.

 

3dmax struggles badly with large numbers of objects -rather than overall poly counts. try rotating view port with 5000 teapots (instanced or not) then smash them all together and see how much faster it is. then try the different between edit poly and edit mesh in viewport.

 

we generally dont get control over how the sketchup/rhino models get created and exported (to a lesser degree)

[Brodie Geers]

nicnic,

 

That makes more sense. To be fair, I'd love to work exclusively within 3ds max (to avoid the software shifts, import/export issues you refer to). SU's development has been frustratingly slow in many areas since Google took over, but it's still just so darn fast and intuitive that it's hard to get away from. It's been said that in 3ds Max there are 10 different tools to do 1 task while in SU you can do 10 different tasks with 1 tool (eg. the move tool can move, copy, array, rotate, and stretch geometry). I find the later preferable and less frustrating in most situations.

 

I've never heard the criticism of SU models being too detailed I get your point though, and I don't think that it's limited to any particular modeling program. It's hard to get a satisfactory model out of ANYONE it would seem. But I could see how SU would seem worse than most, not due to the software, but because it has a disproportionate amount of nonprofessionals using it.

 

But the issues you're referring to shouldn't apply if the person creating the SU model is the same person exporting to 3ds Max and continuing development there.

 

-Brodie

Edited March 15, 2011 by brodie_geers

[David Arbogast]

In my company Revit is now our standard way of documenting buildings and I've enjoyed some nice success so far in importing and re-using Revit geometry. When I start with a Revit import, my first task is to layer it out using "Select from Scene" dialogue, which can be organized by "Revit Category". Then I can switch various layers on/off to assess what components are unnecessary for my render. The Revit models are often inadequate in many ways, but I just have to re-model the parts that aren't adequate.

 

Even if you choose to fully re-model the Revit model, it will at least provide a very helpful snap-able template for the re-modeling.

 

My biggest challenge in interacting with Revit is how to work with Revit on the front end at the conceptual design stage. Usually all the discussions about Revit with 3ds Max only reference the Revit to Max direction...I want to see more development in the 3ds Max to Revit workflow. Why? Because 3ds Max is about creativity and art; it's a program that let's you explore design possibilities. It's a great program to study conceptual design. So, I want to learn more about how I can do conceptual design modeling in Max and have Revit use that model as a meaningful design-intent structure that Revit can use to fully develop the BIM stuff.

[creasia]

I would go with Sketchup for starters. It has had limitations with larger scenes in the past so if you want to go big go with Revit, as it has so many automatic features that are created from just drawing outlines of objects, including the "kitchen sink."

[M V]

SketchUp has come a long way since this thread started in 05. Between the great work that Google and ruby programmers have done with fantastic plugins, I pretty much use it from soup to nuts to get very high quality renders out the door. Vray just acquired ASGVis, the makers of the Vray for SketchUp plugin, and this is huge. I just might be as bold enough to say that SketchUp coupled with Vray and Photoshop could get you all that you need.

[Brodie Geers]

As an avid SU user i think SU is great for archviz modeling. However, I'd certainly question its use for animations. It's come a long way with rubies but I haven't seen anything to suggest it can compete with something like 3ds max's animation capabilities. You might get a camera path right, but you can't animate a car moving (or anything else).

 

-Brodie

[David Arbogast]

For me 3ds Max is my primary tool for modeling and rendering, but I also use Sketchup as well. I agree with Brodie that Sketchup is a very good fit for architectural modeling. It is also vastly superior to 3ds Max in two important ways: 1. Cost; 2. Short learning curve.

 

With regards to rendering, however, Sketchup is seriously lacking. We have Vray for 3ds Max and Vray for Sketchup and it is pretty easy for Vray for Sketchup to have difficulties rendering complex models, whereas Max can power through most anything. I think it's just an internal memory issue with Sketchup. But, since 3ds Max now supports directly importing Sketchup models, it's a very nice software tandem. Now when I start a project I can choose to model in either program like I choose a flavor of softdrink...whatever suits my fancy at the moment.