Listing prices?

[cianmcgrath]

Hello All.

Just want to know you thoughts on listing prices on your website.

Good Idea / Bad Idea?

 

I have come across a few sites that list their prices.

 

Cheers.

Cian.

[Devin Johnston]

I think it's a bad idea for the industry as a whole because it takes the power of pricing away from the artist and puts it into the hands of the client. This is bad for everyone in my opinion and should be discouraged when ever possable.

[Brodie Geers]

I think it's a bad idea for the industry as a whole because it takes the power of pricing away from the artist and puts it into the hands of the client. This is bad for everyone in my opinion and should be discouraged when ever possable.

 

How does listing prices on your website take pricing power from the artist?

 

-Brodie

[BrianKitts]

When I was freelancing I found that my site got more traffic and I got more inquires by having prices on my site. But I made it very clear with a caviot that the listed prices were approximate figures and every project has unique factors that have to be considered when providing a fee quote.

 

Problem is since a lot of the overseas outfits have started posting fees, developers start surfing sites for the right price to get their job done. If you don't have any fees listed on your site at all, they will probably skip over you and go looking for other places so that they can shop around and estimate the budget for their marketing.

 

To address Devin's comment, my fear would be that it can be dangerous if a client sees that you charge X dollars per rendering and come at you with a project expecting to pay X dollars, and approve you to work for that fee and then their project requires excessive pieces that put you way over budget and at a loss to complete the project.

Edited May 18, 2011 by BrianKitts

[Tommy L]

I dont think there's any moral argument to be made one way or the other. I would never list prices on my site because 3d is so flexible that the same projects can be done at a range. I usually quote ranges. Its impossible to put a range next to a finished image/animation.

 

And on a related note, I think its a fairly redundant point. All my decent clients have come through face to face relationships that are built over time. Web inquiries are usually low-ballers, you can keep em.

[Devin Johnston]

How does listing prices on your website take pricing power from the artist?

 

-Brodie

Like Brian said once a client sees a number it's locked into their brain, if you come back with a higher price they are going to be less likley to agree to it. I'd never put prices on my site (if I had one) because your backing yourself into a very tight corner where the client now has the upper hand when negotiating that price.

[Brodie Geers]

Like Brian said once a client sees a number it's locked into their brain, if you come back with a higher price they are going to be less likley to agree to it. I'd never put prices on my site (if I had one) because your backing yourself into a very tight corner where the client now has the upper hand when negotiating that price.

 

I think there may be some valid reasons for not listing prices but I disagree that this is one of them. Presumably, if you're posting prices on your site, you're also posting some of the parameters that went into determining that price, whatever those factors may be (duration, building size, resolution, whatever). If a client comes to you with similar parameters wouldn't you give them a similar price?

 

As for the industry as a whole, I would think it may actually help. There already ARE prices for arch-viz work around the internet. And by-and-large they are extremely low prices. I'm not a freelancer, but I often scan some of the freelance sites where people are looking for arch-viz artists and the budgets are almost always unbelievably low (I don't see much over $200). There are also a number of arch-viz sites which post similarly low prices for their work. The result is that anyone looking around the internet for arch-viz work will undoubtedly get the impression that arch-viz work is very cheap (an astute observer may come to the conclusion that perhaps it's only inferior quality work being offered for so cheap, but I wouldn't expect many to reach that conclusion). If more prices were posted around the internet, I think potential clients would have a better idea of what a reasonable price looks like for a reasonable product.

 

And more to the point, if someone has gotten their expectations from the internet before finding your site and deciding to contact you, I'd rather they have the expectation based on my price listings that they're going to pay, say, $1,000 USD (and maybe have to talk them up to $1,200 based on their particular requirements) rather than them expecting to pay ~$200 and being shocked by a seemingly outrageous price.

 

-Brodie

[Devin Johnston]

Hey it's up to you but if someone is looking around the internet and sees that most prices are under $200 US when they get to your site and see $1000 US for about the same thing do you really think they will bother contacting you? In fact those are the clients that you don't really want anyway because they almost always want something for nothing. These people aren't interested in the highest quality imagery, they are looking for something fast and cheap and unfortunatley there are a lot of those types of people. Your better off keeping your prices to your self and attacting clients based not on price but on the quality and artistry of your work.

[Brodie Geers]

Hey it's up to you but if someone is looking around the internet and sees that most prices are under $200 US when they get to your site and see $1000 US for about the same thing do you really think they will bother contacting you? In fact those are the clients that you don't really want anyway because they almost always want something for nothing. These people aren't interested in the highest quality imagery, they are looking for something fast and cheap and unfortunatley there are a lot of those types of people. Your better off keeping your prices to your self and attacting clients based not on price but on the quality and artistry of your work.

 

If you don't list your prices aren't you just as likely to get calls from folks wasting your time as those who are willing to pay $1,000 for the quality you provide?

 

I wasn't really referring to those who aren't going to pay more than the lowest available price regardless of quality. I was mostly referring to those folks who ARE willing to spend more for quality but don't have a personal contact who's in archviz - so they need to scour the internet for services. I don't see why posting a price up front would scare anyone away except for the clients, who we agree, you don't want anyway.

 

-Brodie

[Dave Buckley]

Since I started freelancing, not one job has been quoted the same as the next, so why would I put general prices on my website, if someone wants to know how much something will cost then they can call me and ask, if they are really interested in working with you then they will call you. I'd rather people come to me for the quality of my work rather than how much I cost.

 

The other reason I wouldn't really give prices other than reasons already given above - i'm not sure i've done a job yet where the cost hasn't been negotiated throughout the duration, for additional changes beyond the initial brief, extra work that is asked for whilst still doing the original etc etc.

[Brodie Geers]

Since I started freelancing, not one job has been quoted the same as the next, so why would I put general prices on my website, if someone wants to know how much something will cost then they can call me and ask, if they are really interested in working with you then they will call you. I'd rather people come to me for the quality of my work rather than how much I cost.

 

The other reason I wouldn't really give prices other than reasons already given above - i'm not sure i've done a job yet where the cost hasn't been negotiated throughout the duration, for additional changes beyond the initial brief, extra work that is asked for whilst still doing the original etc etc.

 

I think that's a valid position and if you're getting as much work as you want then I can see why you wouldn't change.

 

I tend to think of things in terms of an architectural firm's business model. Most architects websites aren't going to give you a guaranteed price per square foot on the front page of their website. But I've seen a number of sites where you'll see a building along side the price tag of that particular building.

 

-Brodie

[cianmcgrath]

Some interesting points.

I can see the pros and cons to listing prices.

 

At the moment and IMO I think it couldn't do any harm to give rough example prices

but clearly stating that these are only guild prices and each job is different.

 

It's a pain in the ass when you spend time looking at plans or even writing a proposed script for an animation

when quoting for a job only to find that the time wasters budget is 50 cent.

Or when another studio or freelancer makes you do the same just to find out what you charge.

 

Cian.

[Jonathan Sanchez]

I myself would not post specific prices as my projects range differently. How can you quote the same price for a house that's in small lot, or a mansion on a farm?.. it just doesnt make sense. I specifically spell out in my website that each project is different, and we estimate on a per/project basis. Those that are looking for the 200 dollar renders are not in my market, you want cheap crap, go get cheap crap elsewhere.

[Iain Denby]

I think if you publish prices, then your work becomes about the price and not much else.

[Brodie Geers]

I myself would not post specific prices as my projects range differently. How can you quote the same price for a house that's in small lot, or a mansion on a farm?.. it just doesnt make sense. I specifically spell out in my website that each project is different, and we estimate on a per/project basis. Those that are looking for the 200 dollar renders are not in my market, you want cheap crap, go get cheap crap elsewhere.

 

I think that's the point of posting the prices next to the images though, right? If you post a range of images with a range of prices then the client with a mansion is going to assume their price will end up closer to the price next to the mansion image rather than the house.

 

I think if you publish prices, then your work becomes about the price and not much else.

 

Let's not fool ourselves. It is. Maybe not for us, necessarily, but certainly for the client. The client isn't looking to commission artwork. They're trying to sell a job. The only reason they don't pay the $200 is because they feel that the extra $800 +/- is a wise investment - not because they care about how beautiful the image is simply for beauty sake.

 

-Brodie

[Jonathan Sanchez]

I think that's the point of posting the prices next to the images though, right? If you post a range of images with a range of prices then the client with a mansion is going to assume their price will end up closer to the price next to the mansion image rather than the house.

 

-Brodie

 

Although I see what you are saying Brodie, I believe it's unnecessary to post up prices. It would be like a building contactor posting up prices on his site, saying a 10 story bldg cost this much and a kitchen remodel cost this much. It just not wise, as each 10 story bldg is different and each kitchen is different therefore the price would fluctuate. I've worked on simple living room shots that I've finished in 2 days, but others have taken me 2 weeks. How would I charge the same for them?

[Devin Johnston]

Let's not fool ourselves. It is. Maybe not for us, necessarily, but certainly for the client. The client isn't looking to commission artwork. They're trying to sell a job. The only reason they don't pay the $200 is because they feel that the extra $800 +/- is a wise investment - not because they care about how beautiful the image is simply for beauty sake.

 

-Brodie

 

A wise investment....how so because if they don't value the art work and only look at price why spend $800 more?

[ezb]

Every visualization project is so different. The only way I would consider listing a fee is to accompany it with a case study, that outlines the type of project, the amount and quality of information that was furnished by the client, the production time, and the final products themselves. Even then I think it's a bad idea. One of the largest variables in a project is the client. How much do they know about the process? Have they ever submitted work to a visualization company before? How difficult are they to work with?

Architectural and Interior Design services are closely related to services offered by a professional visualization company. I have never (and hope to never) see an architectural or interior design firm post generic prices for arbitrary work. I think that the companies that are posting per image or per animation fees are doing our profession a dis-service. It cheapens that value of our products.

[Brodie Geers]

Although I see what you are saying Brodie, I believe it's unnecessary to post up prices. It would be like a building contactor posting up prices on his site, saying a 10 story bldg cost this much and a kitchen remodel cost this much. It just not wise, as each 10 story bldg is different and each kitchen is different therefore the price would fluctuate. I've worked on simple living room shots that I've finished in 2 days, but others have taken me 2 weeks. How would I charge the same for them?

 

Well, I wouldn't say it's "necessary." Many get buy fine without it and our industry is doing ok. My point is simply that it's a viable option and I think I can make a case that it could even help our industry as a whole if it were more common. Your question is a crucial one. As I've mentioned, I'm not a freelancer so honestly, I've never had to fight through some of these issues although I've considered many of them as I may well be a freelancer some day. Part of the difficulty in answering your question in a universal way, is that there is no universal standard of pricing parameters.

 

Some folks will just charge by the hour. So their website might clearly state that they charge, say, $50/hr. Then if you have 2 similar images with vastly different prices, there would be different ways of handling that. In the project description you could tell the duration of the project and perhaps a line about what made the project take so little or so much time. This, too, would be beneficial to the prospective client (and you) as they will understand that if they come to you with a full set of finished .dwg files and a material list, they'll get a better price in a faster amount of time than if they bring you hand sketches and make 4 different changes throughout the process.

 

If you use a different set of parameters then it would need to be handled differently. Some folks don't charge by the hour at all, but may have a set fee and tack on extra fees for revisions. This person might have the 2 day image at $800 and the 2 week image at $800 + $200 (per revision) * 4 revisions = $1600. Again, the prospective client sees the 2 similar images but understands quickly that price doesn't rely entirely on the simplicity/complexity of the image but also on their cooperation.

 

A wise investment....how so because if they don't value the art work and only look at price why spend $800 more?

 

I don't mean that they don't care how nice the images look, but rather they only care how nice they look in relationship to what they can get out of them. Folks may buy a $10,000 painting simply because they like the way it looks - not so with our work. So someone would spend the extra $800 because they think that it may help sell a $100,000 project. Believe me, if they thought they could get by spending $200 and not have to worry about selling the project or looking cheap in front of the client, most would do so....in fact, many DO do so.

 

-Brodie

Edited May 19, 2011 by brodie_geers

[Brodie Geers]

I won't say these guys are a banner example of how I think an arch-viz company website should look (nor will I say anything about their price/quality), but what I like about it is the effort they go to in order to educate their prospective clients. It's almost definitely overboard, but I think it relates to some of what we're talking about.

 

This is a company that puts their prices online (in a much more generic way than I'm suggesting), but they also educate the client as to what exactly it will take on their part to get that price. It's an interesting business model.

 

http://www.ingenious3d.com/knowledge_base/pricing

[ezb]

I won't say these guys are a banner example of how I think an arch-viz company website should look (nor will I say anything about their price/quality), but what I like about it is the effort they go to in order to educate their prospective clients. It's almost definitely overboard, but I think it relates to some of what we're talking about.

 

This is a company that puts their prices online (in a much more generic way than I'm suggesting), but they also educate the client as to what exactly it will take on their part to get that price. It's an interesting business model.

 

http://www.ingenious3d.com/knowledge_base/pricing

 

While that link is pretty informative - I see clients glazing over on the details, clicking over to the portfolio, browsing the images and then picking up the phone to call a visualization company that has been recomended to them through a peer network, or has made the effort to contact them personally.

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

So, out of curiosity, ...has anyone ever contracted someone based on the cheap prices, and if so, what were the results?

 

I have always assumed that you are going to get what you pay for, and the experience you pay for when you see the cheap prices some people post.

[Jonathan Sanchez]

So, out of curiosity, ...has anyone ever contracted someone based on the cheap prices, and if so, what were the results?

 

I have always assumed that you are going to get what you pay for, and the experience you pay for when you see the cheap prices some people post.

 

As an unexperienced beginner, when I first started out, I made the mistake of promoting myself by offering very cheap prices... soon realized I could not make a living that way, I was attracting the wrong kind of customer and I was hurting the industry. Now, if someone gives me too much trouble for price, I don't even bother with them. With patience, I've found good clients that know the work/skill involved. I've learned that I need to sell my skills, not my low prices.

Edited May 20, 2011 by sancheuz

[Tommy L]

I also find that the longer the conversation goes without budget being mentioned, the less money the client has to spend.

[FlytE]

In the nicest was possible, I think I would instantly respect a visualisation company slightly less if I saw they were posting their fees on their site.... if I am being completely honest.

 

My reasons for not posting fees are slightly different though. As much as I respect my local competition (and I do because I know alot of them and have worked either for or with some of them in the past), I am not keen on having my fees displayed to them... and the rest of the world. Its not personal, and neither is it a huge secret as such because I would probably be willing to discuss the subject over a pint or two, but I don't particularly feel comfortable with gift-wrapping anyone the opportunity to undercut me, especially given the competitive nature of the market.