Revit 6.1

[Cesar R]

Hi,

 

I was wondering if Revit 6.1 has gotten better as far as fetures to make it more competitive to archicad since autodesk first bought it. In addition is it possible to export the model to viz 2005 or Max for rendering?

 

What about custom walls and windows and objects. Can those be created in archicad or other application? For instance if the clien want a custom archictural accent (sculture or something) can those be created ? i am asking because I am looking to buy either Revit or arhicad, but I know that autodesk makes good products and I can get probably a discount if I purchase revit and viz.

 

Thanks

 

What am I looking to do? - homework and freelance projects.

homework: building design and CDS and fast corrections,

freelance: visualization work rendered in Max

[Ray]

I'm not here supporting revit, but we have it in our office and I have successfully imported revit models into viz. Just make sure you do the export from a 3D view, then open in autocad and explode, explode, explode all those blocks!

Can't help you with the rest of your questions.

[bricklyne]

I use both Autodesk ( AutoCAD 2005, ATD and Revit) and Graphisoft and graphisoft-related products ( ArchiCAD, Artlantis etc) at work, and have personally never considered a Revit-ArchiCAD comparison to be a fair comparison by any degree by virtue of the fact that they employ considerably different interface/workflow mentalities. Even Revit itself has quite a unique user system from the Autodesk line, so much so that Archicad is closer to AutoCad in terms of drafting techniques than Revit is. That being said, and having used both products Revit's strength and weaknesses lie in its tightly managed Parametric engine as does Archicad's strength's and weaknesses in it's overall flexibility. With the exception of high-end (Gehry-esque) forms and curvilinear sculputural processes that Archicad seems to have a notorious difficulty in coping with, it is otherwise a very flexible system that allows you the ability to create practically anything you can draw or draft on screen, by ingeniously manipulating its regular tools for other functions other than what they were intended for (slabs!!). Revit on the other hand has, like I mentioned a very tight interface that has to link objects and elements so discretely that some may consider it a hinderance to truw design. While it may sound like I am touting Archicad over Revit, its only because, the ArchiCad workflow is more intuitive to people trained in the architecture profession while nevertheless allowing for creativity and also because graphisoft unquestionable has the longest experience ( 20 years to Revit's 6 or so) in the AEC industry with the new BIM direction that architectural design seems to be evolving into from CAD. Revit is built strictly as a building and building management tool and while that's nice and all, forces one to have to find ways to do other things. At the end of the day however, the preference belongs to the user in the sense of what they are more comfortable using. I would encourage you to try to get demo versions of both programs ( I'm not sure about Revit, but Archicad definitely has one) and have a test run to see for yourself which you prefer. I must warn you that people who love these programs ( ArchiCAD or Revit) love them and love them. Meaning that they both have rather polarised followings, usually becaye you have people who start get weaned on one software and become so easily adapted to it that it becomes difficult to be objetive about its flaws. So that theoretically should make choosing between the 2 easier as you will either love one interface and hate the other or vice versa.

 

hope this helps

 

P.S. - You don't need to explode anything when exporting models from ArchiCAD to VIZ, lightwave, Lightscape or any of the many other rendering or modelling application that archicad allows export to. And this is another of ArchiCAD's big features, i.e its interoperability with other related software.

[Arnel]

Hi Cesar there is a thread going on at graphisoft.com regarding which is better between Revit and Archicad. Those who have used Archicad and Revit will tell you that revit is far more intuitive, powerful and easy to use. Some of the advance features of revit have been in the wishlist for Archicad 10. If you are a Designer doing complete CD's and visualization then Revit is for you.

 

IMHO Revit is by far the most intuitive and very powerful architectural program to date and building systems are also coming. All the questions you asked regarding geometry creation can be done in revit without any knowledge of programming unlike in archicad.

 

It can also be link to Viz or Max same as architectural desktop without any problem for high end visualization.

 

FYI The freedom tower at the new york world trade center is now being designed by S.O.M. using revit.

 

For additional info goto AUGI.com

 

Hope this helps.

 

http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=3372

[Arnel]

I'm not here supporting revit, but we have it in our office and I have successfully imported revit models into viz. Just make sure you do the export from a 3D view, then open in autocad and explode, explode, explode all those blocks!

 

You don't have to explode your 3d drawing to link it to viz or max. For further information look at this whitepaper

http://www3.autodesk.com/adsk/files/3968933_Using_Revit_w_AutodeskVIZ.pdf

[bricklyne]

Who says you need programming knowledge to do geometric design in ArchiCAD? I have never needed to know GDL programming (if that is what you're really referring to) to create any of the models that I need to use in ArchiCAD and those like yourself who say that you do, simply do not know how to use the program to its best capacity ( if at all). As for the thread in the graphisoft website, it always struck me as odd that a lot of the Reviters who choose to 'hang around' a rival software's User forum site, by far and large had never actually used the program itself and only know most of what they do via hearsay and what they read on Graphisoft user forum wishlists. Perhaps Arnel will also help explain why it also is that the ArchiCAD users who have apparently said (none that I know of really) that Revit is more intuitive than ArchiCAD still prefer to use ArchiCAD and make wishes for ArchiCAD 10 as well despite it's 'obvious' and 'apparent' flaws and despite the existence of and 'obviously' superior product out there; they should be migrating to Revit in droves yet still ( for some odd reason) choose to hang around and make wishes for ArchiCAD to be a better product. Strange indeed.

 

I'm not going to sit here and start bashing Revit in comparison to ArchiCAD, which is what Reviters seem to like doing vis-a-vis ArchiCAD, despite the fact that I do have, unlike most of these Reviters, extensive experience in both programs. Revit is a good program, for what it is as a BIM program, but so is Archicad and as I said both programs do have their strengths and weaknesses. And which is why I expressly recommended you to try out both of them first, for yourself if you can before deciding as you are always going to get slanted opinions such as Arnel's here or graphisoft users like myself. Like I originally said the comparison between the 2 is a very poor one at best and the wishes for one products features in the other by its users are akin to a PC user desiring to have a few of OSX user interface features installed into Windows Longhorn simply because they seem better. That doesn't mean the PC user is going to go out and get a Mac. Only that sometimes its nice to look over the fence.

 

But I nevertheless understand the need that Reviters have to bash a more well known product in that making area (BIM or as it was originally referred before AutoDesk went in and raped and pillaged the term; Virtual Building), if only to make their product seem far more superior. A very common marketing tool indeed. However, you ( and they) might also want to be aware that Revit's future (as with the future of any recent Autodesk conquests of superior products - Lightscape anyone???) may be up in they considering discontinuing the Revit line and putting some of its features as well as obvious reputation into and behind the marketing push for ADT as their BIM solution for the future. I remember lightscape was also heavily marketed as the most advanced renderer out there after they bought it right before their webpages began to redirect people to a new page for purchasing VIZ and they killed an obviously superior product. Revit users, be afraid; be very very afraid!!!!

[Arnel]

I don't want to start a word war here. It was just my own opinion and what i said is based on what i read in that forum I never bother to make any comment at all with that forum or trying to defend revit. For myself i don't want to start another thread saying that "my balls is bigger than yours"

 

I am just happy with revit period. I can do everything as per my requirement.

 

Thanks and peace be with you.

[bricklyne]

Hi Cesar there is a thread going on at graphisoft.com regarding which is better between Revit and Archicad. Those who have used Archicad and Revit will tell you that revit is far more intuitive, powerful and easy to use. ............. All the questions you asked regarding geometry creation can be done in revit without any knowledge of programming unlike in archicad.

 

 

http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=3372

 

 

Arnel, it may not have been your intention to start a word war, but like Scott Davis in that graphisoft forum, when you take comments made in a alternate software's users forum and actually quote them as proof of the advantages of Revit over ArchiCAD having never even used the software yourself and without even actually bothering to read the gist of the discussion for yourself and without taking the entire article in context, then you run the risk of not only being branded disengenuous but also will inevitably start the word war you wish to avoid starting.

 

For starters, that particular thread if you bothered to read back far enough was started by someone who was trying to decide between ArchiCAD and revit. And having used Revit more than AC, his opinion was already biased to begin with. Secondly, the people that you claim to have used both AC and Revit who claim that Revit to be more intuitive, such as the aforementioned poster and the regular Revit layabout at the graphisoft forum, Scott Davis, ahve in some cases never evenused ArchiCAD much less run a demo of it. Scott Davis admits as much despite the fact that he was theone who originally posted the comment from the graphisoft site to the Revit user forum site. How does one make a serious evaluation of a product that they have never even used much less know the basic functions of?

 

Lastly, your last comment regarding the geometry creation needing programming knowledge, also implied that you yourself have used ArchiCAD and know for fact that the only way to create geometry in ArchiCAD is through programming knowledge. Which is of course a blatant bold-faced lie. You may not have intended it, but that's the way it came out.

 

Consequently, my primary argument is that you and all other reviters out there just like myself and anyone else so inclined towards ArchiCAD should, generally refrain from making broadstroke generalizations, assumptions and unsubstantiated comments and claims about the competition's software especially when we don't have the necessary knowledge or experience to criticize them as such. Which is why in my original point as I pointed out, that despite the fact that I have and do use both these software regurlarly and may even be seen to be more ArchiCAD friendly, that it is not appropriate for the many various reasons, to make a direct comparison between the two software.

[Arnel]

ok to make your story short let us make a survey of how many users of archicad who switched to revit and revit to archicad. In this way we can tell the facts to everybody. I don't want have to have a very lengthy argument here and there will just need to make the record straight. In this survey we should not include demo users it should be people using it in production.

 

For archicad users switching to revit just go to augi.com and you will know.

[Richard McCarthy]

LOL !! Finally Revit forum have some activity and we go into war LOL!!

Oh comon' guys...

 

 

I would bet on Revit, cos I am BIAS !! haha, but honestly, I did use ArchiCAD before, and a lot of little things in ArchiCAD just didn't tick for me, no temporary dimension, (so you are force to look at that bar down the bottom for measurement...) Not much "intelligence" in archiCAD, and the GDL.. arg! Saving and opening ArchiCAD file(s) can be a mess....

 

And a VERY VERY, VERRRRRY messy 3D navigation system for 3D window (and not to mention it is DEAD SLOW until the recent v8.0 with OpenGL option implementation), and a very VERY SLOW RENDERER with sub-par quality rendering ...

 

I base on my experience (and that was 3 years ago when I was using ArchiCAD v6.5 extensively) After that I switched. To be completely fair, I think ArchiCAD is more flesh out tool (it has much stronger detailing and drafting capability than Revit, LARGE (I mean HUGE) libraries of objects (for painless drag and drop creation), and very good interoperatability with a lot of applications (VIZ/MAX/ACAD). It is surprisingly more interoperatable than Revit which has a very limited export function (autoCAD (2004, 2000) DXF, DWG, DGN (microstation), 3DS, ONLY...I guess autodesk only want to force users to upgrade all their autodesk products..)

 

Other good thing about Revit, It's very powerful (a lot of automation by itself, it's "intelligence") It's intuitiveness (almost zero learning curve compare to archiCAD) and it's geometry creation capability and full building creation (archiCAD-ist needs to "hack around" to get a lot of things done..)

 

As for the future of Revit, It's bright, Autodesk has say it over and over again, it will eventually phase out ADT, so future is with Revit. There is no worrying about it.

 

It will eventually go the way of Autodesk Inventor, which is a very powerful and mature parametric mechanical design program. I certainly hope some of the programmer working in inventor would come to work on Revit someday to make it more powerful like Inventor....

 

As for choosing which one.. really down to users.. I agree, you have to try out yourself.

 

 

To try Revit :

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=3106396&linkID=3770209

 

To try ArchiCAD:

http://www.graphisoft.com/products/order_cd.html

 

 

Some ppl just like one interface over another, both have it's strong point and weakness at this point that both package are quite even.

It's really down to the user (YOU) 's preference. It's like.. some people just prefer Coke over Pepsi..(Oh NO! I just started soft drink war!) McDonald vs Burger King (Oh NO AGAIN!) Nike vs Reebok, Chicken vs Egg ............

 

[Richard McCarthy]

 

What about custom walls and windows and objects. Can those be created in archicad or other application? For instance if the clien want a custom archictural accent (sculture or something) can those be created ?

 

 

 

 

"You can add a wall sweep to a wall from any 3D or elevation view. A wall sweep can be horizontal or vertical.

 

1. Go to a 3D or elevation view.

2. From the Modelling menu, choose Host Sweep, Wall Sweep or click Host Sweep from the Modelling tab of the Design Bar and choose Wall Sweep from the fly-out menu.

3. Select Horizontal or Vertical on the Options Bar.

4. Place the pointer over the wall. The wall sweep location prehighlights. Click to place the wall sweep.

5. Add the wall sweep to adjacent walls if needed. Autodesk Revit preselects the wall sweep location on each adjacent wall.

6. To start a wall sweep in a different location, click Start Next from the Options Bar. Move the pointer to the desired location on the wall and click to place the wall sweep.

7. To finish placing wall sweeps, click onto space in the view away from the wall. "

[bricklyne]

I don't want to start a word war here. .................. For myself i don't want to start another thread saying that "my balls is bigger than yours"

 

I am just happy with revit period. I can do everything as per my requirement.

 

Thanks and peace be with you.

 

Wow!! for someone who's not interested in starting a word war or a thread on the basis of "my balls is(sic) bigger than yours" you certainly have come down to earth very very fast, what, with a challenge survey?

 

{"ok to make your story short let us make a survey of how many users of archicad who switched to revit and revit to archicad. In this way we can tell the facts to everybody. I don't want have to have a very lengthy argument here and there will just need to make the record straight. In this survey we should not include demo users it should be people using it in production."

 

or archicad users switching to revit just go to augi.com and you will know."}

 

And what exactly is this going to prove? Why not just have a survey of total number of ArchiCAD users versus total number of Revit user? Why stop there even? Why not have a survey of total number of AutoCAD/ADT users versus total number of ArchiCAD and Revit users? Will that prove that AutoCAD is a far superior software than ArchiCAD or Revit?

 

As a an ArchiCAD enthusiast, I'm certainly not insecure enough as to be curious to want to find out how many users have switched to Revit because there's still millions more people who prefer ArchiCAD. Which is why such a survey would be as useless as it is brainless; it doesn't tell you anything - unless of course you're searching for some standard by which to tell that your " balls is bigger than" mine.

 

ArchiCAD is unquestionably the world leader in BIM or Virtual Building; has been for the last 20+ years and if they do the major upgrades they expect to, will still be for the next long while, Revit or no Revit. Don't forget that the reason Autodesk bought Revit was because of this undeniable fact as well as the fact that CAD is going the way of the dinosour and BIM is the future, that they had to do something.

 

Once again and maybe this time I will say it in caps just so that you don't misunderstand me: REVIT IS A VERY VERY VERY GOOD PIECE OF SOFTWARE!!! But so is ArchiCAD, and despite the fact that both are the most advance BIM design tools out there, again I will repeat; a direct comparison is neither accurate, fair nor useful for any purpose whatsoever. because they employ vastly different design thinking methodologies. Which is why I encourage anyone wanting to get into BIM to not only try them both out ArchiCAD and Revit, but even Microstation and Vectorworks if possible. All BIM solutions and al very widely used in the world.

 

So unless Arnel still wants to 'make the record straight' ( whatever that means) or prove that Revit has bigger cajones than ArchiCAD, I don't see the need to devote much more time to this direction of the discussion.

[Arnel]

Ok now let us stop this crap, alright. This thread will go nowhere it wont help anybody asking real question regarding both programs as there are a lot of die hard defenders on both sides.

 

To be fair to everybody just try out both programs and decide for yourself which one really fits your requirement.

 

Good day and be happy.

[Richard McCarthy]

http://forums.augi.com/showthread.php?t=7400&page=2&pp=10

 

I was just reading this, and got a question for you bricklyne...

Is archiCAD still not bi-directional as they say? again, I havn't touch ArchiCAD past v6.5 for a long time, so I don't know....

[bricklyne]

I don't understand what you mean by bi-directional? You should be aware that there have been a world of changes between versions 6.5 ( which I suppose you last used) to the current version 8.1.

While not bug-free ( if anything far from it) version 8.1 features a considerable number of enhancements to its inter-platform (Mac-PC), inter-workflow (individual-Teamwork) and cross-interface (import and export between probably the largest variety of 3D-CAD software versions). That's the closest I can guess to what you mean.

 

otherwise you might have to be more specific on that note.

 

Bricklyne

[Richard McCarthy]

Bidirectional update I mean... like for example if you change the wall in sheet view (before printing) will it update the whole model/views?

That's one of the major point of Revit, and also one of the thing I would look for if I am to purchase a new CAD program. This feature alone would most eliminate the documentation inconsistency errors which is prone in most CAD program when it's not parametric.

[bricklyne]

Oh, now I understand. By bi-directional you are basically referring to the core Parametricity (if there is such a word) of ArchiCAD. Any changes made to any elements (walls,slabs,roofs, columns, beams etc.) in any of the views ( floor plans, different storeys, section or elevetaion views, 3D-window, or even the detail viewports) are automatically effected and in essence reflected in the rest of the model and consequently views. So if I notice an inconsistency in the height of a wall looking at a particular section and I change it while in that view, when I next switch to the 3D window or the other sections cutting across that wall, the change will be likewise shown. Every element is in essence linked to a single model that is in turn presented through the various 2D and 3D views.

 

As far as I can understand ArchiCAD has always been bi-directional, as you call it, although considerably buggy in previous versions. They have remarkably improved the Parametric engine not just for the overall model/Building plan handling, but also for individual elements (walls,slabs, roofs, structural elements etc) as well as objects (equivalent of blocks in AutoCAD) within the overall model.

 

One thing I should point out though, and this is from a personal observation having used both softwares, is that ArchiCAD's parametricity is much 'looser' or more flexible than Revit's for example. I don't say this as a plus or an advantage of ArchiCAD over Revit but merely to point out the difference in mentality and the working of their parametric engines. By this I mean that while ArchiCAd automatically updates changes to elements to reflect the said changes within the overall model, the changes themselves are specific in nature and do not affect the rest of the model unless expressly specified. Revit is a bit more tighter in that a change to a single element will change other elements to try to match that change in keeping consistency with certain pre-specified paradigms; changes have a more general essence to them in Revit.

 

To illustrate the point, considering the example of changing the wall height; if I change the North wall of my space to be higher than the rest of my walls, archiCAD will change only that wall to effectively reflect a space with one wall higher than the rest and basically jutting from the slab or roof above; unless as I mentioned before, that wall was expressly either linked or grouped to the other walls or the slab so that a change in any unit of the group keeps a certain consistency within the group. In Revit on the other hand such a change would automatically initiate consequential changes in affected adjacent elements or effectively to the whole model. In essence, Revit already has an inbuilt set of paradigms and relationships that elements must abide by as they pertain to building structures and these are always maintained regardless of any changes to individual elements.

 

Both methodologies have their advantages and disadvantages, the most obvious and instructive being that a flexible parametric engine affords a more extensive capacity for a creative modeller or drafter, but one the other hand, a tighter parametric engine effectively eliminates a layer of responsibility or the burden of having to make sure everything matches, fits or that bugs do not exist. So basically it boils down to what the user prefers to have, deal with, or not deal with.

 

Sorry for going on too long-winded on this, but I hope that this was clear enough and was of some help to you.

[Richard McCarthy]

Thank you for the helpful insight bricklyne

I will definitely take another look again at archiCAD.

[Arnel]

Here is an interesting thread from archicad forum on what they want for archicad version 10. Version 9 will be out in mid september so most of their wish features are most likely not in version 9 yet. It is quite interesting that most of their request are taken from revit's features.

 

http://archicad-talk.graphisoft.com/viewtopic.php?t=2678&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=revit&&start=100

[bricklyne]

Here is an interesting thread from archicad forum on what they want for archicad version 10. Version 9 will be out in mid september so most of their wish features are most likely not in version 9 yet. It is quite interesting that most of their request are taken from revit's features.

 

 

You just can't help yourself can you? You previously ask that we drop this crap about comparing ArchiCAD and Revit and then like some kind of addict head right back to the Graphisoft user forum to dig for more dirt.

 

OK then, I'll bite. Of course ArchiCAD users have some wishes for ArchiCAD 10, (yes, we knew that v9 was due out soon and it was kind of too late for some of the wishes) that exist as current features in Revit. But this is in no way because they got those ideas or wishes from having tried out Revit. In fact I have come to realise that most ArchiCAd users are barely familiar with Revit much less its user interface. That the wishes for v10 intersect with what currently exist in Revit is both largely coincidental and the result of the intuitive tendancy to gravitate towards more effecient workflow and interface. On this front obviously, Revit creators deserve credit for having the foresight to include what would be seemingly advanced user features in its products. Of course, they had the advantage of launching their product only 15 or so years after ArchiCAD had already been on the market, and hence theoretically had the advantage of retrospective analysis, but, trifles!

 

In any case, my point is that, just as certainly as archicad users have wishes for the next version that seemingly converge with what already exists in Revit, I would suspect, in fact, I am absolutely certain that there are wishes that Revit users have for Revit that currently already exist in Archicad.

If you think not, then try IFC for starters (supported in ADT but not as a free plug-in like in archiCAD.) A long standing staple in archicad projected to be part of the next revit (v7 I suppose; currently not even remotely supported in v6.1). And If you don't know what the IFC movement entails then, in the intergrated world of AEC, you have a seriously big problem!

Or maybe, features like Plan2model that allow one to go from 2D dwg format to a 3D model with a handful of mouse-clicks. And the Alignview allowing one to align the model with a background image like photomontaging, just to name a few. Of course, because most archicad users don't lurk around Revit user forums ( we know the grass is greener on THIS side) as seems to be a favourite pastime of Reviters in the graphisoft forum, its hard to tell what the other Revit wishes would be. But the underlying point remains that there are features in Revit that archicad users would like, just as there are characterstics of Archicad that you reviters would like. This isn't exactly breaking news nor should it come as a surprise to anyone who's been in CAD or BIM long enough. Nor does it make ArchiCAD a superior product to Revit. ( would say vice versa, but it seems like you need to believe this).

 

 

PS.

for future quotes from graphisoft user forums, it would always be useful or at the very least courteous if you take the entire discussion in context as opposed to just picking the bits and pieces which most fit your arguments or that provide the easiest targets. I realize from observation that you seemingly can't help it, but it is a useful habit to inculcate into one's behaviour particularly in making arguments.

[Richard McCarthy]

cool down guys.. LOL....

 

....

Bricklyne, you understand this is a Revit channel, so ofcourse that some of us are a bit bias towards it..... and occassionally post something like that.. but you don't have to get aggrevated just like that.. I don't think arnel mean anything besides to promote some healthy discussion....

 

To be honest with you, if ArchiCAD or any other CAD package can do what I want it to do and more, I would drop Revit like bomb in a heartbeat

I guess for you or anyone else it would be the same, as long as there is a better solution, we would all like to go on something better. For me right now, I will stick with Revit.. it's good enough for me

[STRAT]

bricklyne - please curb your behaviour else you'll be asked to leave. do not talk down to people no matter how wrong you think they are.

[bricklyne]

bricklyne - please curb your behaviour else you'll be asked to

leave. do not talk down to people no matter how wrong you think they are.

 

I'm being censured on a posting that I made almost 4 months ago? In August?

What gives? Open season on me I guess.

 

I'll make easy on you guys, since I'm not quite enjoying being made out to be some sort of brute and since I don't necessarily come here to be bashed.

 

I apologize ( Once again) for any remarks that may have come of as condescending or belittling. OK? I apologize. I don't know what more further you want or possibly and realistically expect me to do but, enough already.

 

I will also not only refrain from making further comments and postings regarding Revit and Autodesk, I will refrain from posting regarding any issues at all, further. It certainly is not worth the stress and misrepresentation at this point to be continously harangued, repeatedly raked over the coals beaten over the head with a stick like this over things I said in JUNEor AUGUST, for crying out loud. It's just getting ridiculous for me at this point.

 

Hopefully this will curb the seemingly increasing threats at this point, to get me banned from this forum as they now cease to be relevant.

 

That's all I have to say about all this.

[Richard McCarthy]

This thread has been brought back to the attention of the moderators because of we found there is a pattern to your misbehavior.

 

We have yet to take any action of censure against you YET. And if we do, you would NOT have been able to post this as you have. We still like to give you a chance to contribute POSITIVELY in the forum, but it seems you have balatant disregard of the warning and the rules of this board.

 

We expect you to conduct yourself in a civil and professional manner.

Perhaps you could learn to talk in a considerate, professional, and courteous way, and it will be a good start to the good of the community of this forum.

 

Perhaps this forum is cease to be relevent to you, and we welcome your leave of this forum if you find it uninformative, but this forum is still very informative to MANY others who find it relevent. Maybe you could have some consideration of others before posting such remark, we would really appreciate your cooperation.

 

As a side note, perhaps "crime doesn't pay" in your concept of law, if it's committed long time ago, but I suggest to you to read the rules of the law again.