mental ray vs. VRay for beginner?

[Vegeta_DTX]

^Well yes IMO with such light intensity you would get about the same ambient occlusion. If the sun intensity was greater, then occlusion would be like in Vray picture or even lighter. I respect your opinion about that comparison...that makes things easier for you.

 

I still didn't decide whether to switch to Vray or not, although I'm playing with its demo right now(and while I'm really pleased with almost everything about Vray so far, for the life of mine, I cannot understand how the heck is it faster than MR ?)

 

And I also think that having an open topic where people can post comparisons of this kind can be just useful for all of us, cause again, I'm not here to make any MR vs VR wars, but if everybody else thinks that its useless I won't be in your way to lock it or end it.

[David Arbogast]

These are definitely interesting times in the maturation process of renderers. As has already been mentioned I think Zap Anderson's move to Autodesk is intriguing and exciting; especially given his statements on his "Zap's Mental Ray Tips" blog stating:

Integration of mental ray and iray into Autodesk products have always been.. problematic. Integration work was done by Autodesk, but there was never a dedicated person with enough precise know-how of the nitty-gritty details to handle it (or sometimes simply not enough priority put on it). Well...... now I will be working there. 'nuff said

That suggests to me that some of Mental Ray's apparent limitations might be more of a disconnect between Max and the implementation of MR. Put Zap's words in perspective: ChaosGroup is fully in command regarding the implementation of Vray into Max, but Zap suggests that Autodesk simply didn't have the time or expertise to implement MR into Max, and Mental Images probably didn't have much motivation to develop it on their end. I'm just speculating, of course, but Zap's words are pretty strong...

[Dave Buckley]

That is all great, they are all right, and I agree Mental Ray is way below VRay when it comes to stability and reliability...

BUT! From my long experience as a spectator of various architectural renders, and from my own experience with Mental and Vray(which is not to extensive I admit) I still believe that Mental Ray has significantly more realistic lighting.

 

That is just my personal experience, and based on it I believe hat you cannot get this kind of result with Vray(or at least nobody so far did):

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/2151/bathroomlrg.jpg

http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/883/fig102.jpg

 

Most of the time Vray will make such scenes look a bit more high contrast, dark, moody and give them kind of plastic look...and I am not the only one to have notice that.

 

When I see, for example, such a realistic sofa rendered with VRay, I will most likely switch to Vray that same moment, but till then I'll rest my case.

 

wasn't that bathroom rendered in VRay by Dwayne Ellis? first image on the home page http://www.dwayne-ellis.com/index.html

 

or is that the one from Jeff Patton's portfolio? I know the original was definately done in VRay as it was used by Dwayne as a class he delivered at a cg event to demonstrate VRay techniques.

 

The other image is nice but also quite doctored in photoshop if I remember the tutorial correctly that the image has come from.

 

Heres a paper you may find interesting http://www.tokeru.com/t/pub/Maya/MayaMentalRay/Summary_of_-_VRay-like_interior_renders_with_mental_ray.pdf

 

also

 

try these for size

 

Mental Ray

http://www.evermotion.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=73894

 

VRay

http://www.evermotion.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=77126

 

The mental ray version even says that it was post-processed and after having recently visited the SOA Academy Day 2 to see Peter in Action I can confirm his post-production is minimal to say the least.

 

I know the fog is a little heavy but I believe this was an experiment for Peter. And I must also stress the foliage in the Mental Ray version was all done with Maya paint effects (which is something that Max doesn't have).

 

So my conclusion is - I agree with Matt Clinch

[Vegeta_DTX]

^Perfect! That's what I've been looking for! Thank you so much on all the data you provided, but especially on this Vray bathroom!

Yes the bathroom render that I posted is done by Jeff Patton(at least that's how it was credited on the site I downloaded it from).

Now we finally have a good enough comparison(please correct me if I'm wrong)

Vray one is on top, Mental Ray one is at the bottom, IMHO MR one is incomparably more realistic, especially the left side of the scene:

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/5231/bathroomvrvsmr.jpg

 

As for Alesandro Prodans work vs Mies van der Rohe's work, I saw them both before and I think they might be the most realistic renders I've ever seen but I'm still significantly more impressed with Alessandro Prodans work.

 

But I think that for comparing quality itself the scene must be the same...

 

@David Arbogast, Those are great news! I truly dream of day when Mental Ray will actually work without the need for bunch of workarounds for the simplest little thing. However unfortunately for me I use Maya so it will most likely be the same for me

Edited November 2, 2011 by Vegeta_DTX

[Speaker]

On what basis can you call the image rendered with MR more realistic if they both have been rendered in totally different lighting conditions? The MR image may seem more realistic because of the diffused sunlight coming from the window, that creates a more natural looking image, opposing the higher contrast and sharper shadows created by the ceiling lights in the V-ray render. Also not to mention the clear differences in the model and textures.

How do these examples even help to compare both render engines?

[Vegeta_DTX]

^That would be a pretty valid argument, if the light really came from the ceiling, but I believe that's clearly not the case. The VR picture is a simulation of daylight too(look at the direction of the shadows)...the light seems to be coming through the window but it seems not to be under the normal angle but its actually rotated down a bit for some reason.

 

I wish Jeff Patton himself had his Vray version of this scene his renders look bliss but they are all made with Mental Ray.

[David Arbogast]

@David Arbogast, Those are great news! I truly dream of day when Mental Ray will actually work without the need for bunch of workarounds for the simplest little thing. However unfortunately for me I use Maya so it will most likely be the same for me

I erred by limiting my comments to Max. Zap is working for Autodesk and my guess is he'll undoubtedly be addressing the MR implementation for Maya too.

 

I use Vray, and love it, but there are some ways that using Mental Ray could make my life easier too. I work in a large Architectural/Engineering firm and collaborate with a lot of people using other Autodesk packages, like Revit. These other Autodesk packages are also all standardized on a Mental Ray workflow. So, I have some interest in switching to Mental Ray from that standpoint, but it's really hard to give up all the great tools, materials, and material maps, and the better render-farm distributed rendering that Vray provides.

[Vegeta_DTX]

^I am glad to hear that, I really hope it will all turn out good for all Mental Ray users.

From what you said I see we are actually in the same situation but just opposite directions...I wish I could keep using Mental Ray, its hard for me to give up the great realism it provides and the most awesome outdoor lightning in the world, that can be setup by two clicks(creating the physical sun and sky and turning on the final gather)...but I really can't take its instability anymore so I'll move to Vray as soon as I prove to myself that Vray's lighting can look as realistic as Mental Ray's(which I've been constantly failing to prove for the last few years).

 

...what an irony...

Edited November 3, 2011 by Vegeta_DTX

[beestee]

Take a look at some of this gentalman's work:

 

http://bertrand-benoit.com/

 

He primarily uses VRay.

 

And all this proves is that with the proper skills in place, any render engine can yield impressive results. In fact I feel that Maxwell and Fryrender have a much higer concentration of renderings that display impressive realism than the engines discussed here due to the point that they force the user to take a more realistic approach to lighting from the start. Can this be done with VRay and Mental Ray? It is obvious by the examples, but it is not as easy or quick as many visualizers would allow themselves to venture into the process when dealing with budgets and deadlines.

[Vegeta_DTX]

beestee, thank you very much for this great input! Thanks to your post I just might finally switch to Vray! yaaay!

Because this one completely blew me away with realism:

http://bertrand-benoit.com/PublicImages/AC1.jpg

 

That's the same type of mood and lighting that is present in this MR render http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/883/fig102.jpg that I've been so much doubting that Vray can pull off...

 

However since its not stated in the post, I asked in the comments - which rendering engine he used for that project...if he says its MR I'm seriously going to fall into depression

Edited November 3, 2011 by Vegeta_DTX