mrstardust Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 (edited) Hi, i´m now 5 months into my 3DS max self teaching experience and starting to feel more confident about my skills. But since i´m not just doing it for fun, but actually at some point want to earn a living with it, i´m wondering about a couple of things, mostly considering the "real life" workflow of things, so i know on wich aspects or additional programs i should focus on. So, here we go: 1. What do you usually get with a comission/job? CAD files? Sketchup files? 2D drawings? Complete models? List of materials? 2. What other tools/programs should i also learn? Or will 3DS Max be enough the beginning)? 3. How deep should i get into those other tools? 4. How much time do you usually have for an assignment? Its probably different for every project, but some estimations would help me in my self evaluation... 5. Do you need a background in architecture? 6. I�m also considering a variety of other areas like animation, vfx or games, i just thought it might be fastest and easiest to get into archviz. Any thoughts about that? Edited September 13, 2011 by mrstardust Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Hi Samuel, In answer to No. 6; if your answer to No. 5 is yes (as it really should be) then getting into Archviz isnt that fast is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Buckley Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Hi Samuel, In answer to No. 6; if your answer to No. 5 is yes (as it really should be) then getting into Archviz isnt that fast is it? I tend to disagree with this, although it would help and technically make your arch viz learning process faster. I don't have any background in architecture at all, yet I am earning a living solely through arch viz. I'm learning about different aspects of architecture every day and in the beginning was researching myself what I thought I needed to know, which made my entry path to my career a little slower than someone with a background in architecture. I do know what your saying though, the course etc is a long one. But I'm just saying that if me and another guy started to learn arch viz at the same time (he had a solid background in architecture and I didn't) then I imagine he would pick it up a little quicker. He already understands technical drawings, why things are depicted as they are, how to interpret the finer details that aren't necessarily on the drawings you might receive as a visualiser. Anyway back to the point. 1. What do you usually get with a comission/job? CAD files? Sketchup files? 2D drawings? Complete models? List of materials? All of the above but not necessarily all on the same project 2. What other tools/programs should i also learn? Or will 3DS Max be enough the beginning)? Autocad, Photoshop 3. How deep should i get into those other tools? As deep as possible 4. How much time do you usually have for an assignment? Its probably different for every project, but some estimations would help me in my self evaluation... Purely depends on the client, I couldn't say. I haven't seen any consistency in this yet 5. Do you need a background in architecture? See my waffle above 6. I�m also considering a variety of other areas like animation, vfx or games, i just thought it might be fastest and easiest to get into archviz. Any thoughts about that? Why do you think arch viz would be faster/easier? You'll essentially be learning the same tools just in a different context. I'd say go with what interests you. If you're more into games then that will be quicker, you'll be more motivated to succeed and more enthusiastic about what you do. If it doesn't interest you, you'll get bored and begin to procastrinate making the process slower and harder as there will be people out there wanting it more than you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AubreyM Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 I am only going to comment on #6. First and foremost you need to decide what it is that you want to do. Even though ArchViz, animation and game development all use 3ds max the workflows are very different as well as the tools used inside Max. Basic modeling and textureing are used in all three but each of those are specialized. Not very often will you use bone tools, FumeFX or Afterburn in ArchVis, and not nearly to the same degree as an FX person for example. Low poly counts are a consideration in Archviz but they are a holy grail in game development. Dave was spot on when he said to go with what interests you. You will never be good at something that you don't enjoy doing. There is no "fast track", just hard work and dedication. If you are unsure what part you want to do then play around a bit. Do some animation, go to the game developer forums and see what they do and give it a try. You are already here so there is a ton of information about the Archviz field to read. There are thousands of tutorials online for all of these areas so have at it and and see what gets your blood pumping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrstardust Posted September 5, 2011 Author Share Posted September 5, 2011 Hi Dave, and thanks for the thorough reply! Autocad, Photoshop Yeah, Photoshop is a no brainer...i just breezed through sketchup today, since i heard its getting used alot in archviz lately (ronen bekerman, peter guthrie, you know). Think i will give it a go on my next exercise-project. Do you use AutoCAD for modeling yourself or is it mainly because the clients use it alot? Purely depends on the client, I couldn't say. I haven't seen any consistency in this yet hm, lets put it like that: whats the fastest (and by that i mean skilled) i have to become to get a job done from scratch? Why do you think arch viz would be faster/easier? Well, for games or visualfx or film, theres just so much more to master before you can achieve great results, imho. And i think you have to be great, not just good, to get a job in those industries because more people wanna do that and all in all theres just less demand. But maybe i´m wrong. Its just stuff i´v heard in the internet... Of course i´m also asking because i would actually prefer earning my living with the more artistic side of the business. I´m keepin my tablet and zbrush hidden like a secret stash of chocolate, like a treat wich i´m going to use to reward myself for learning all that purely technical stuff... Don´t get me wrong, i also lots of that technical stuff and i always like getting great results in whatever i do, i´m just not that into architecture and the tools i gotta/wanna learn just keep piling up (AutoCAD, Sketchup, Vray, Vegetaion&Scattertools, Mudbox, Zbrush, maybe Maya at some point...) and at some point i will have to make money with all that, and i still have no idea how long thats gonna take me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrstardust Posted September 5, 2011 Author Share Posted September 5, 2011 Hi Aubrey, as i already stated, i actually would be more interested , say, character development for instance. But i´m no teenager anymore and i already have a degree in something completely different, that didn´t turn out so well. In fact i´m a father of a 2 yr old son now and my focus just shifted dramatically from "what i wanna do with my live" to "whats the best way to get money on the table (...with my skills and without beeing completely boring)". But i do realize that i´ll have to specialize in something to get good enough to stand out against my competitors (wich i haven´t met yet...its lonely learning alone...), and now is the time i think... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AubreyM Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Well follow your dream and see where it leads, you never know what you might fall into. Good Luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Buckley Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Hi Dave, and thanks for the thorough reply! Yeah, Photoshop is a no brainer...i just breezed through sketchup today, since i heard its getting used alot in archviz lately (ronen bekerman, peter guthrie, you know). Think i will give it a go on my next exercise-project. Do you use AutoCAD for modeling yourself or is it mainly because the clients use it alot? so that I can manipulate, prepare the drawings they send to me for use in max. I don't model anything in CAD hm, lets put it like that: whats the fastest (and by that i mean skilled) i have to become to get a job done from scratch? this really is an impossible answer, if a client comes to you and asks if you can do something in a day, and you accept, then you have to be that fast. So essentially you need to be as fast as the client wants you to be on any ACCEPTED job, if you can't complete the job before they need it, then don't accept it Well, for games or visualfx or film, theres just so much more to master before you can achieve great results, imho. And i think you have to be great, not just good, to get a job in those industries because more people wanna do that and all in all theres just less demand. But maybe i´m wrong. Its just stuff i´v heard in the internet... Of course i´m also asking because i would actually prefer earning my living with the more artistic side of the business. I´m keepin my tablet and zbrush hidden like a secret stash of chocolate, like a treat wich i´m going to use to reward myself for learning all that purely technical stuff... Don´t get me wrong, i also lots of that technical stuff and i always like getting great results in whatever i do, i´m just not that into architecture and the tools i gotta/wanna learn just keep piling up (AutoCAD, Sketchup, Vray, Vegetaion&Scattertools, Mudbox, Zbrush, maybe Maya at some point...) and at some point i will have to make money with all that, and i still have no idea how long thats gonna take me... You've kind of contradicted yourself here, 1 min you say theres more to master in VFX, then you say there are tons of tools to learn for arch viz. Anyway, as already said, do what excites you, it will keep you motivated to succeed hope it helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Of course its not essential for freelance but an architectural background can allow the visualiser to play an important design role in projects, particularly on early phase and bid proposals. Also, an understanding of light, form, structure and materiality as well as an ability to read the proposal and context and not just the drawings can surely only lead to better client relationships and final products? Finally, the architect prefers that you have been through the same c**p that he has! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Buckley Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Also, an understanding of light, form, structure and materiality as well as an ability to read the proposal and context and not just the drawings can surely only lead to better client relationships and final products? Definately, these being the things I was talking about earlier when I mentioned it taking me longer due having to teach myself about these things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Hey Samuel, Im a father of 2 young kids, follow your dream and your family will be better for it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrstardust Posted September 8, 2011 Author Share Posted September 8, 2011 (edited) Hey guys, somehow my thread subscription got lost, so i missed out on all your new threads. Of course its not essential for freelance but an architectural background can allow the visualiser to play an important design role in projects, particularly on early phase and bid proposals. Also, an understanding of light, form, structure and materiality as well as an ability to read the proposal and context and not just the drawings can surely only lead to better client relationships and final products? I think i know what you mean by now. 3 Days ago i started a new project, so i could start building a portfolio http://www.archdaily.com/156059/house-20-jolson-architecture/ I chose this project, because it had good reference images including several plans, it didn´t seem that complicated from a modeling perspective (mostly rectangular shapes) and i kind of liked it. I also thought i´d give sketchup a try, since its supposed to be fast and intuitive. Unfortunately i had to completely start over again a couple of times already, because of either missing reference pictures or my lack of knowledge in interpreting the plans right: I was working my way up from the first floor to the last, switching out floorplans as i went on and then had to realize it wasn´t coming together right in the end... My problem is, that i do like doing things very precisely, but i´m either just lacking the skills or the knowledge to do so with the architectural projects i´ve bee working on so far. Maybe i´m also just lacking the right references (thus my question about what kind of information and files you´re being provided with a project), but all in all i´m starting to think you might be right about your advice... I´m still not convinced though. I´m trying to base my decision as rationally as possible on two questions: 1. How much time will it take me to get good enough in that specialization? 2. How good are my chances of actually getting hired or doing enough freelance jobs to earn a living? Based on your advice and my experience i´m starting to think my first impression on how fast i can get good in archivz vs other areas was wrong. I´m still interested on how good my chances would be to earn a living in archviz vs other areas... Does anyone of you have any experience to answer that question, or do you all just work exclusively in archviz? Edited September 8, 2011 by mrstardust Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Geers Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 A few misc. thoughts. 1. You don't have to do archviz exclusively. Many freelancers will use there software and skills to branch out to a wider market. Graphic design work is pretty common. I just found out a friend over on the Sketchucation boards is using SketchUp's Layout software to create some really wonderful minimalist logos. There's also product design. Once you get a good knowledge of a rendering app and an understanding of photography you can create some really nice product shots for companies. And then there is also illustration, which can be done for textbooks and such. 2. I don't think an architecture background is necessary but you'll definitely receive CAD files and architectural drawings so you'll want to get familiar with digging out the things you need from those. The 3DATS Architectural Visualization Intermediate to Advanced book will tell you everything you really need to know on that account. The other books in that series are equally invaluable. 3. Precision is good but you need to be flexible. The drawings may be wrong. If they bring you in early in the project, the drawings WILL be wrong. Unless they're using Revit, the elevations won't match up perfectly nor will the floor plans. Usually it's not enough to matter but sometimes you'll need to go back and clarify things to make sure you know their intent ('this wall is brick on one elevation and wood siding on the other...') 4. Typically I work from CAD elevations as a basis. 5. One of the good things about modeling in SU is that you shouldn't need to start over as much. Its more forgiving of mistakes in my opinion so you can correct things without loosing too much work. 6. If you like the more artistic side of things, do a lot of your work in Photoshop. I knew a guy who did a VERY simplistic sketchup model and then just did a ton of work in photoshop over top of it. 7. For gaming work, you don't necessarily have to have a wider girth of knowledge as you might expect. From what I've heard, in the gaming and VFX industry, it's rare that you see a project, or even a part of a project all the way through. Instead you specialize in texturing, or modeling, or rigging, etc. In archviz of course, it's the other way around. 8. You originally asked about what other software you might need to know. I haven't heard anyone mention rendering software yet but that's a no-brainer (unless you go the route of my SU -> PS friend). Have you chosen a rendering software yet? -Brodie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrstardust Posted September 8, 2011 Author Share Posted September 8, 2011 Hi Dave, thanks for your clarifying! so that I can manipulate, prepare the drawings they send to me for use in max. I don't model anything in CAD That´s what i wanted to hear... As i already said: I´m trying to keep the number of programs to learn and master to a minimum. I like learning, but at some point it was a bit overwhelming. So essentially you need to be as fast as the client wants you to be I see...the problem with homeschooling for me mostly is to see my own progress and therefore to know when i´m good enough to offer my services to a paying customer... You've kind of contradicted yourself here, 1 min you say theres more to master in VFX, then you say there are tons of tools to learn for arch viz. I guess i was a little unclear there. What i really meant is this: If i want to aplly for a job or start freelancing in the timeframe i´m planning to, there are simply to many tools to learn, if i don´t specialize now. For ArchViz i might be good with just 3DS Max and Vray to produce good results, for all the other areas i´d have to learn alot more tools. And since i´m not a student anymore i actually have to make some money to live, so i only have that much time left to learn and master those tools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Geers Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Another thing I meant to bring up. You'd asked about deadlines and what's the shortest time you need. It's a sensible question but you're looking at it all wrong. Take a look at the 'production triangle' http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_WBDpA9NxuXE/SgjDlFVZDUI/AAAAAAAABvs/X3c_pRQz8I8/s1600-h/Production-Triangle.jpg There's no deadline that is necessarily too short, it's just that the quality will be reduced (which can be compensated to some extent with money). Your job will be to let them know what sort of quality they can expect in their deadline. If they say they need something in 3 hours, you might let them know they can have a rough sketchup model. If it's a week, they can have a nice rendering. If it's a month, they can go through a nice process of back and forth that involves tweaks and some design development resulting in a nice rendering and maybe even a better building. -Brodie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrstardust Posted September 8, 2011 Author Share Posted September 8, 2011 Hi Brodie, thanks for your input as well! 1. You don't have to do archviz exclusively. Yeah, i keep forgetting that...i guess i´m just stressing myself too much at the moment, wich makes me impatient, wich makes me make mistakes, wich makes me have to start over again and again, getting frustrated on the way and in the end questioning everything... 4. Typically I work from CAD elevations as a basis. That probably gives you nice starting points with lots of snaps. I had only those Jpegs of elevations, so nothing to snap to. In Sketchup i found it pretty easy to start from there, because of the sticky faces technology. In Max i tried several approaches, all of them not working too well: First i tried to just draw the lines for the Walls etc. and then extrude them. That worked sometimes, but sometimes it just came out wrong and it was really frustrating to find out why, if a spline wasn´t closed or whatever. Then i tried working with the AEC-Walls, but since it seems not to be possible to axis-constrain them while drawing, its hard to match the Reference Images. Wich brought me back to sketchup: 5. One of the good things about modeling in SU is that you shouldn't need to start over as much. Its more forgiving of mistakes in my opinion so you can correct things without loosing too much work. I guess i´ll just need way more practice...I found it to be quite the opposite way: The first time i modeled the Jolson House i completely forgot to watch the tutorial about groups and ended up with one big hunk of sticky faces that were totally useless when it came to correcting a couple of things. The second time i did use tons of groups and layers to hide and unhide things and generally keep them apart, but somewhere in the process it all got messed up, and in that way 3DS Max is way more forgiving: its easier to correct things, once you messed up. The other problem is: If i import the model in 3ds Max and put an Edit Poly modifier on top, i can see why its so much easier to "sketch away" in sketch up: Lots and lots of wildly triangulated faces. That might not be a problem if i don´t plan on refining the model in any way, at first i was just a bit shocked. 7. For gaming work, you don't necessarily have to have a wider girth of knowledge as you might expect. From what I've heard, in the gaming and VFX industry, it's rare that you see a project, or even a part of a project all the way through. Instead you specialize in texturing, or modeling, or rigging, etc. In archviz of course, it's the other way around. Yeah, i heard that too. Since i´m at the very beginning i see two options for me: 1. Get an internship. As far as i know most internships are for people who already can do some work on their own, so i guess i have the best chances to get an internship, if i can be of best use to them and not just rig a character for example. 2. Start freelancing. I guess i could just specialize in one area, for example rigging, and just try to get enough jobs in that area. But then again: In the beginning i´ll probably just get small jobs, wich i guess will require me to do the whole thing myself, rigging and modeling and texturing and so on... As far as i see it i should diversify first to get a any job and then specialize to get good jobs... Have you chosen a rendering software yet? Yeah, but that also took me a while...but in the end i decided to learn Mental Ray, since it ships with Max and i don´t have to spend the extra cash on Vray. Gave me a hard time and lots of headaches, theres just SO much more and better info out there on Vray, than on Mental Ray... Results are getting better though...: [ATTACH=CONFIG]44702[/ATTACH] About the production triangle: I heard about that in a completely different context and absolutely love the truth of it... like i stated in my previous post: Its just hard sometimes learning everything on my own, without knowing when i´m good enough to get paid for it...especially while always comparing myself to pros like ronen bekerman on the way... That beeing said: I´m gonne clear my head with a couple of beers now. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrstardust Posted September 10, 2011 Author Share Posted September 10, 2011 (edited) Hello again, couple of beers did the trick... Since i´ve worked 10 hours straight every day for the last week, i guess i needed a little break. I decided i will finish the last project i started, the Jolson House 20. I think that´ll be wise for a couple of reasons: 1. I don´t like leaving unfinished business behind. I know it´ll only make me feel frustrated about the efforts i already put in. 2. I need to practice my basic modeling, texturing, lighting and rendering skills anyway, and the project gives me plenty of room to do so. 3. Other valuable lessons it can teach me which i will need in any area i will later work in: Planning ahead, visualizing before modeling, keeping things organized, looking at the details. 4. I´ll probably want to move on to other areas later on, because of my lack of an architectural background. I like those fantastic archviz renders, but i don´t think that´ll make up for my general lack of interest in architecture itself... So i guess i will roam these forums for a while longer.. On a sidenote: I´m starting to like sketchup. All those ArchViz heroes can´t be wrong (guthrie, bekerman etc.) so i tried to get into the sketchup-mindset and i´m starting to get the results i want. The intuitive interface tends to distract from the need to plan ahead... Edited September 10, 2011 by mrstardust Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danshewan Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Great thread. It's something I've been wondering, given the types of files used in architectural work versus the realities of 3D production. It's nice to see people weighing in with suggestions, and to hear opinions on varying approaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Geers Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 [sketchUp's] intuitive interface tends to distract from the need to plan ahead... That's a great way of putting it. I'm going the other way - coming from SU and trying to learn 3ds Max, and I find that a lot more planning and forethought is required. It's taking some getting used to. -Brodie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrstardust Posted September 13, 2011 Author Share Posted September 13, 2011 That's a great way of putting it. I'm going the other way - coming from SU and trying to learn 3ds Max, and I find that a lot more planning and forethought is required. It's taking some getting used to. -Brodie Yeah, planning ahead is always essential, no matter what program you use... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoKeL Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Wicked thread. Ive also been wonder many of the same things MrStar. Im also learning SU. If you find any good tutorials on building houses in SU can you let me know. I also enjoy character modelling, its a nice change from trying to learn all the archviz stuff. Good to break it up a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrstardust Posted September 15, 2011 Author Share Posted September 15, 2011 I like starting useful threads... This is a link i got from another thread: Google SketchUP Pro – Best Practices And i agree about breaking it up...since i´m homeschooling, i´m trying to include that in my weekly schedule: One day of focusing on something different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoKeL Posted September 16, 2011 Share Posted September 16, 2011 Thanks for the link Im home schooling too. Althought it can be hard with a 2 yr old running around. Hows your SU practice coming? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrstardust Posted September 20, 2011 Author Share Posted September 20, 2011 Thanks for the link You´re welcome! And here are some more! They´re actuallo not tutorials, but they helped me grasping SUs potential in a professional workflow: http://3dsmaxrendering.blogspot.com/2011/05/modeling-in-sketchup.html http://www.peterguthrie.net/blog/2010/11/sketchup/ Im home schooling too. Lots of people in 3D seem to be. That´s probably why they´re all so nice and htelpful... Althought it can be hard with a 2 yr old running around.ge Yeah. Tell me about it. Thats the main reason for some of my problems: Lack of time and concentration. I´m actually thinking about co-working. Dunno if its just a local trend in germany, probably not, but recently a couple of co-working places started around here. They´re offering the chance for an affordable office place along with great networking opportunities. Great thing for a starter like me! Hows your SU practice coming? I was down with the flu, so not good... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vegeta_DTX Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 Very nice thread! I hope all of you are doing well with your arch-viz careers and with everything else! I also wondered for quite some time now - will I be able to earn a living by doing arch-viz(working not more than 8 hours a day and having a free Sunday?) Is that possible? And if it is, what would you say, how hard is to get to that point? Whatever I start doing that's related to 3D/graphical design turns out to be a job that most of the time lasts whole day every day because its simply deadline based. So I'm kind of in the similar position as mrstardust. I've recently started getting into the arch-viz(and I like it a lot so far!) even though I have over 5 years of experience with Autodesk Maya and Zbrush and I have ZERO architectural background Now I am a type of person that values my free time a lot, I really hate crossing 8 hours a day staring at the monitor. So that's why I want to know if I'll actually be able to live like that someday, or is that all just very close to an illusion. Lets say that by earn a living I consider approximately around 500$ that would be more than enough for me right now. Answer on my question would be much appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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