Lehm Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 I've noticed a trend lately in the requests I've been getting lately and I curious if other are experiencing it as well. In the past almost 100% came to me with architectural plans ready to go. Lately its almost completely flipped. Everyone is coming asking for conceptual renders. Basically wanting me to do the design as well as the visualizing. Some have flat out told me they're trying to save money by not paying an architect to do the basic design. I'm just curious if others are seeing the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archlabs Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Jeff, I have noticed that as well. Especially in the last year or so. Most of this I see going on with real-estate developers looking to save a few bucks. I have also noticed more clients just hand us sketches and basic materials and have us fill in the rest. I guess it comes down to saving money in the tough economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
notamondayfan Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 I guess its an obvious way to save costs, especially at the start of a development when they are just trying to get funding, support and initial marketing underway. I guess you don't need an architect to draw all the details at the start, and it's easier to tell us to use generic / library details to fill in the gaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Schroeder Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Welcome to the design/build world. Many times these early renders are to sell the idea to investors or city planners. You don't want to sink money into designing the building only have the city to shoot it down. Ultimately, the Architect has to be involved to create the construction docs. It's just that the rendering folks are being inserted sooner than later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brodie Geers Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 How much info do they give you exactly? That sounds like sending a model w/ no materials to a render farm for them with instructions to 'fill in the gaps' and render it in Vray. -Brodie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Gray Posted September 20, 2011 Share Posted September 20, 2011 I see this all the time and I love it! Give them a flat fee proposal for 1 or 2 design schemes, then if they want more than that just have a provision in your proposal to work on additional revisions and design development for a flat day rate. The reason I love working this way because it allows YOU to be the designer! You know, many people go through architecture school, THEN a few more years of on-the-job experience, THEN they have to test to become licensed architects. They do all of this because of the allure of the design work; the attractive part of the process that only accounts for maybe 5 to 10% of the process of practicing architecture, while the other 90 to 95% is nuts and bolts architecture, the not-so-sexy side of the business. Embrace your new title as 'Designer' and enjoy it while getting paid to do what many licensed architects would kill for! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 This is a BAD idea. I've been on this board a long time and I'm willing to bet that the great majority of people on here now are in no way qualified nor experienced enough to design a building. I'm sure some people have went through a certain amount of design school, but most haven't. Being an architect is far more than "the nuts and bolts" and "figuring out the construction docs". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Sanchez Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 (edited) Being an architect is far more than "the nuts and bolts" and "figuring out the construction docs". I agree. I've gotten job requests like this in the past from general contractors and owners, but I make it clear to them that I'm not an architect and don't intend to be one. I can visualize a concept, but the concept has to be their ideas, and must be later supervised by someone approved to do so. Edited September 21, 2011 by sancheuz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Schroeder Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 When I've gotten jobs like this, I'm always provided with a concept sketch. Think of it as concept art for a film or video game. Where as in the past, more than likely I was at least presented with the first round of CAD drawings. As Jon mentioned, I'm not here to design the building. I'm merely here to provide you with a visualization so you can pitch the idea to investors, city planners, and so on. Steve- as far as I know you can't make workable construction docs without being a licensed architect or having one sign off on them. So if anyone here is being approached to make c-docs without the proper channels, then yes, that is a really bad idea. And with most of these, I can usually expect another project later down the line of the same building after it has gone through the licensed architects/engineers/cost adjusters and the building usually looks quite different. Especially after cost adjustments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Gray Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Steve, I think you miss my point. A design concept is simply that, a concept that intended to get people interested in an idea, not a set of construction documents. How is selling a design idea a 'bad idea'? I work side-by-side with architects, contractors and even the end users through the design phase. Even when the design is mostly fleshed out I still find errors and can make design suggestions as they arise. How is that any different than receiving information from your client, say a footprint and some reference photos, and designing a concept rendering from that information? I get this all the time and in some cases it's a rough sketch and in other cases it's a meeting with a verbal description and a bunch of hand waving! Even some of the larger rendering companies get hired on to do the interior design work that's seen in their renderings. I don't see this as being any different. I also believe there are quite a few people here who are capable of that kind of design work, we see it regularly in the galleries. If you don't have a design background or are uncertain of your design capabilities, then I would agree it's a bad idea to take on projects like that. The 'nuts and bolts' aspect of architecture I mentioned is referring to anything not having to do with the design aesthetic. There's so much that goes on behind the scenes in an architectural office beyond the initial design phase it's not even remotely funny. I make that comment as praise to architects and their profession because they are expected to know so much about so many things. But again, the really interesting thing about architecture, to most people I would guess, is the design aesthetic, NOT necessarily how it was built, what it's made of, whether or not the carpeting is fire retardant and the paints are lead free, or the structural supports are adequate and the egress routes are properly marked and designed, etc., etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Gray Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 And with most of these, I can usually expect another project later down the line of the same building after it has gone through the licensed architects/engineers/cost adjusters and the building usually looks quite different. Especially after cost adjustments. I see that often too. Love it when that happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
accesskb Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 I'm curious as to what type of projects these situations concern. Having worked at large corporate firms, a licensed architect seems more like one who manages the whole project, attends meetings, guides the team. Its usually the designer, recent graduates and interns who seem to do most of the design work in consultation with the project architect. Many firms don't even bother sending out jobs to Arch. Viz firms, rather have the interns, grads, or even an in-house 3D specialist create the visualizations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Steve- as far as I know you can't make workable construction docs without being a licensed architect or having one sign off on them. So if anyone here is being approached to make c-docs without the proper channels, then yes, that is a really bad idea. Absolutely. And illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Steve, I think you miss my point. A design concept is simply that, a concept that intended to get people interested in an idea, not a set of construction documents. How is selling a design idea a 'bad idea'? I understood your point and it is what I take exception to. Concepts don't come out of thin air. They often take months of thinking and refinement with an understanding of a great many factors including, construction methodologies, economics, socio-political factors, human scale, and the language of architecture. I take no exception to an illustrator delineating an existing concept/proposal and filling in incomplete information - even from a napkin sketch. That's an appropriate use of an illustrator's skill set. However, being given a blank slate and asked to design a concept for a building is simply beyond the capabilities of most illustrators. I've seen far too many renderings with impossibly thin structures, scale elements from Gulliver's Travels, not to mention the typical tract house language of keystones where they don't being and columns that don't touch the ground. Without a doubt there are some who can accomplish this and do it well. My point is simply that most of these people have some or all of an architect's training. Most people on this board don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Gray Posted September 21, 2011 Share Posted September 21, 2011 Thanks for elaborating, Steve... I think we're on the same page, it just took some clarification on both sides. Joel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danb4026 Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 I just completed a project yesterday for a developer where they did just that, skipped the architect. Although they are currently deciding on an architect for the project, they wanted to come up with a preliminary, conceptual design and rendering that they could show to potential retail clients. They wanted a head-start. It worked out well and will, hopefully, lead to work as the project progresses. One probelm is that most architects build renderings into their proposals (for substantially more than I would charge) and insist on doing the renderings in house. I am trying to convince developers that although it might be easier on the architect to do the renderings in-house, it is certainly more expensive to the developer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
accesskb Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 I just completed a project yesterday for a developer where they did just that, skipped the architect. Although they are currently deciding on an architect for the project, they wanted to come up with a preliminary, conceptual design and rendering that they could show to potential retail clients. They wanted a head-start. It worked out well and will, hopefully, lead to work as the project progresses. One probelm is that most architects build renderings into their proposals (for substantially more than I would charge) and insist on doing the renderings in house. I am trying to convince developers that although it might be easier on the architect to do the renderings in-house, it is certainly more expensive to the developer. sure developers can save some money skipping the architect.. but can you imagine getting an Arch. Viz to design a building with little consideration as to how it could actually be built, the costs involved, cultural, social, economic and sustainable issues etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 In addition to that, the future architect is very likely in for a world of pain now that the developer/tenants have seen something. In my experience, developers/tenants can become very attached to a design/concept very quickly. What Dan illustrated may or may not be an appropriate, legal or even possible solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danb4026 Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 I am certainly not saying that the architect's responsibilities are going to be lessened in any substantial capacity or that the design will not be somewhat changed. The rendering is purely conceptual to address size of space, frontage to street, general material concepts and architectural details. **The developer in this case has a very good idea of the look they want to achieve, as well as a force of architects, in-house, working work with the outside architectural firms and engineers that get the construction documents completed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 For sure not all developers are created equal Just as not all architects are created equal Sounds like this particular group knows what they are doing. I'm more familiar with developers with a much more cavalier and "cowboy" attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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