Economy aside, how stable is Arch-Viz likely to be in the future?

[M V]

The cost of starting up is insane. Especially for what you'll charge as a newbie trying to get your portfolio together. Max, VRay and the Adobe Suite alone is like 7-8k and thats just the base of what you'll need. Model libraries and plugins are another expense. It's all very insane in my opinion. Your best bet is to go into a firm and utilize both your design skills and passion for viz. The 2 together will make you the most money. If you can go and freelance and offer your clients design and rendering services, you'll be better off. Utilize that design degree!

[Creationtwentytwo]

Thanks for the reply.

 

Yeah it's pretty costly. The thing is, I originally priced it up at around £2.5k which was £1k for VRay, £600 or so for Max (which was the Student>Commercial price of 2012) £300 for Creative Suite (Adobe now include commercial use in their student licenses) and the rest on model libraries. To me, that seemed very reasonable for effectively starting my own business, I mean that's not a lot of money in comparison to what some business ventures cost to start up.

 

However, as you say, with the new pricing structure of 2013, it's a hell of a lot of money when I'm not earning anything as of yet.

 

I'm just really set on working freelance. I'll see what the reseller is able to do for me, otherwise I may indeed have to go work in-house somewhere to raise a bit more capital and then make the jump to freelance later.

[Tommy L]

The cost of starting up is insane. Especially for what you'll charge as a newbie trying to get your portfolio together. Max, VRay and the Adobe Suite alone is like 7-8k and thats just the base of what you'll need. Model libraries and plugins are another expense. It's all very insane in my opinion. Your best bet is to go into a firm and utilize both your design skills and passion for viz. The 2 together will make you the most money. If you can go and freelance and offer your clients design and rendering services, you'll be better off. Utilize that design degree!

 

I dont think the startup costs are insane at all. There are not many businesses you can start that can have an investment that size and be considered a full service witht the best tools available. How much does it cost to start a landscape architecture business? Or a grocery store? Or a dental practice?

And if you're a 'noobie getting your portfolio together' you've really got no business to be going into business anyway. Go into a firm and work, get the smarts while you save for the initial investment and make some contacts.

[Dimitris Tolios]

If you are freelancing for small stuff, you can work your way with cheaper packages.

3DS max and C4D with all their belts and whistles are not a must have...

 

If you have time to experiment and build up your portfolio, low cost choices like SketchUp are not a bad choice for architectural stills (you can find impressive images produced with SU), and it's pretty easy to get original modeling information exchanged in SU format with most architectural offices regardless of size. SU can have Vray for SU bought for $800.

 

If you are into more advanced modelling, blender and/or Rhino 3D are free and/or more affordable choices.

Rhino 3D is also a very competent platform for parametric modelling (via built in tools, extensions, rhino-script and grasshopper) and good knowledge of this package alone might score you modelling positions in small and big offices alike.

 

Vray is also available for Rhino @ a $300 discount over Vray for 3DS, tho it does lack in a few features and is updated less often, just like with SU, and unfortunately material libraries are not interchangeable with Max.

 

Unfortunately for PP, I don't have any experience outside the Adobe suits, apart from minimal picasa / gimp usage (I did not like em).

[Nic H]

seriously just use the demo version of max and then upgrade once you get a paid job, or get a small business loan.

 

i really don't think you want to stray outside the standard tools of the trade - it will make you unemployable and seperate yourself from a huge and very useful user base.

[Nic H]

weird whats going on with my profile!

im not from yemen.

[Scott Schroeder]

While you are starting up and looking for jobs, you can keep you skills up to date by actually creating furniture libraries and props that you need. That'll save you some money in the long run so you don't have to buy as many models. Watch many of the free tutorials out there on various modeling techniques, build you skills and your own personal library. While you are starting up, believe me, you will have plenty of downtime.

 

Your best bet is to either secure a loan or work a 2nd job while you freelance to offset your initial costs. It is expensive for sure, but worth it in the end.

[Tommy L]

Its best to start freelancing in your spare time anyway. Getting clients and the resulting stable income is not as easy as it sounds.

[Creationtwentytwo]

Thanks, Scott. That's a great idea actually, it's certainly an area I could use some practice on too.

 

I just heard back from the reseller, unfortunately it is only 2013 Suites available at a cost of around £4000.

 

I've had someone offer me a license of C4D Studio though, for a figure that fits within my original budget. I'm deliberating over it now and I may have to run a quick 'test project' in the C4D trial to see whether it's going to be the right choice.

 

I'm kinda keen, since I wouldn't need a renderer as I do like the C4D renderer (although VRay could be an option later) and I see most of the model libraries are now compatible with C4D. Another great factor is that it's a Mac license, and as well as loving working on my Mac, I already have a license of CS5 Production Premium too so that'll be one less cost.

 

Does anyone know any glaring issues with working with C4D?

[Tommy L]

There are no issues at all working with C4D, its a great program and if you get a good handle on mograph you'll be able to bid on lots of jobs outside of arch-vis. C4D is used more extensively for motion graphics and I always encourage people to diversify their portfolio for exactly the reason you started this thread. However, If you're looking forward with one eye on possibly working in an arch-vis studio, Max/Vray is kind of industry standard. You also will hit the ground running with Mx/Vray as they are the tools you already know. Difficult to justify your software choices on the basis of cost, but its also difficult not to!

I dont know what the deal is with buying a second hand Max license, but maybe look into buying 2010 second hand. Its stable and has got a decent MR engine and all the tools you'll need. If you know MR then VRay is a breeze to pick up. Not so true the other way around.

[Creationtwentytwo]

Yeah good points, Tom, thanks.

 

Yeah it's a shame to let cost be a prohibitive factor, and potentially risky to let it guide a purchase decision but as you say, it's difficult not to. Where I'm at now is that I'm thinking if I can genuinely make a go of this, it's not going to take me too long to recover initial costs so if in 6 months time, I've gotten a few clients and I'm finding C4D isn't working out, then hopefully I'll have raised some capital to switch to Max. Conversely of course, I may find that it's worked out great and I can continue using it.

[Tommy L]

Yeah but its not that simple. If you do pick up some clients and are working in unfamiliar software then you'l be learning on their dime. Not a good business move. If you get a decent job through the door, then buy Max. Its a bit of a 'chicken and the egg' situation.

You can operate Max and Vray. That ability is essentially what you are selling. If you suddenly switch to different software, you really have nothing to sell other than a general knowledge of 3d theory.

[Creationtwentytwo]

I see what you mean, but I'm pretty sure I'll be able to pick it up quick enough. I mean, I've used Max and Maya for close to 7 years, and providing the tools exist in Cinema, then I'm sure I can work out how to do something in it.

 

It's like the games/VFX industry, every studio uses a different package but the common advice to people aiming to get hired in that industry is that the tools are irrelevant as you'll pick up those 'on the job', the important part is the work. So in effect, if I can produce a good level of work in either Max or Cinema, then I can learn the technicalities as and when I need to. Of course, this is dependent on whether the tools actually exist... for example, if a package can't import DWG's, then that's a technical limitation that will cause problems, but if one package can do everything another can, then the limitations lie with the user.

 

I agree though, sticking with something I'm familiar with would indeed be most wise. I'm gonna 'test-drive' Cinema though and see how I get on. If I'm finding myself stalling and constantly figuring out where tools are or what they're called, or if I struggle to get a decent output from it, then I'll have to stick with what I know.

[Nic H]

its seems like you have made up your mind - i would really recommend sticking with max/vray and setting up properly!

good luck anyway

[Tommy L]

its seems like you have made up your mind - i would really recommend sticking with max/vray and setting up properly!

good luck anyway

 

Quoted for agreement, because I agree with the man from Yemen.

[LongMozart]

If you want to be in Viz and want to learn skills for the next 5 years, I'd start to dip your toe into real time rendering and augmented reality. That's where this industry is headed, at least the forward thinkers.

 

I agree wholeheartedly. I am from a computer science background with a heavy focus one 3D graphics. Currently I am starting my own business in real-time interactive visualization. It is my strong belief that real-time rendering is the future of the visualization industry, as hardware is getting faster and new algorithms are being developed. Someday we will have V-Ray quality but it "true" real-time, i.e. 24 fps minimum (with no noise) and the clients can interact with the product.

[Nic H]

real time sounds like my ultimate nightmare....

 

having to make full detailed scenes

chucking it into a game engine

letting clients 'walk around it'

 

not something i would ever want to be involved in

its the equivalent of doing drafting / planning applications - except in laborious 3d!

 

however im sure its a growth area and there is money to be made for someone who can pull it off.

[RyderSK]

I invest my time in real-time tools too, but mostly for future game purposes.

 

I don't think it's the ultimate future of archviz. Videos did not kill photography. Photography captures the right moment, and that applies in architecture too.

[Creationtwentytwo]

Yeah I've spent a fair bit of time with real-time applications over the past couple years. There's some exciting potential but I think it's widespread use in Viz is a ways off for a few reasons.

 

I've primarily played with CryEngine and UDK, of which both are quite visually impressive; CryEngine especially so. However, there are a lot of quirks and 'extra steps' in a realtime workflow that add massive amounts of time on top of a regular 'pre-rendered' workflow. For the resulting quality, I'm not sure it's currently worth it.

 

For example, every mesh in a realtime setting needs to be heavily optimised, reducing polygon count as much as possible and of course normal mapping anything with any surface detail. This means building a high-detail model, then an 'in engine' model which needs to be completely UV'd, and then all maps baked out. Textures almost always need to be either square, or 'power of 2' and usually kept under 2048x2048. Realtime lighting is another subject altogether, and heavy use of baked lightmaps is pretty common.

 

Back on topic, I tried Cinema4D today... it's great! I love the interface, and definitely feel happier working in my native OS X. I love the renderer, I still think it's one of the better 'in the box' renderers. MoGraph is a LOT of fun too, so much stuff can be done with that! Which kinda brings me on to a question to you guys with experience in Product Viz or Motion Graphics; I'd love to dip my toes in that industry given the chance. Is it a simple enough transition from an Arch Viz background? Is there much work available for freelancers?

 

I'm very close to pulling the trigger on a license of C4D Studio, but I'm concerned by the comments here about not being the industry standard. I don't disagree, I know Max/VRay has long been the industry workhorse setup, but what caveats/problems am I likely to run into if I do run a Cinema4D setup? It's clearly capable of delivering from an aesthetic point of view, but I'm keen to know of any issues I may run into outside of that factor.

 

However, my reseller is twisting my arm a bit about going with Max. I'm really torn here.

The thing is, my budget will strictly only permit me to go with Max at this stage, or C4D. No extras, no plugins, no model libraries yet.

 

So, it's either Max on its own, or C4D on its own, both are exactly the same price. I'd love some extra perspective here because I'm struggling to make the choice.

 

Thanks!

Edited April 27, 2012 by Creationtwentytwo

[Tommy L]

Sounds like you dont really know where you ant to be in 5 yrs. Architecture or motion-graphics. So it doesnt really matter which you go with, Max or C4D. Just do whichever you prefer. I think C4D is a smaller, less comprehensive program. But thats more from comparing my workflow with my buddy who uses C4D, not from personal use.

[Creationtwentytwo]

To be honest, my question was a bit dumb. The thing is, product viz and to a greater extent motion graphics are both areas I have no experience in so I can't even say I will a)enjoy or be proficient at them, and b)find work in that field. Architecture however is obviously an area I have proven experience in. That said, I think Max will be the sensible choice.

 

Having looked at model libraries and plugins, Max is by far a safer bet.

 

I think the thing that makes me nervous is switching to MR. I've never used it in any depth and whilst I know it's definitely capable of great output, I don't know which buttons to press so to speak.

 

I'm assuming a lot of it is very similar to VRay and of course the fundamental language of all renderers are the same. Can I use proxies of any kind with it? Also, the two VRay shaders I tend to use often are VRayBlend and VRayDirt, does MR have similar equivalents?

 

I think it makes sense to go with Max, as has been said many times in this thread, it's where I'm most comfortable and providing I can get MR working well then I should be all set.

[Scott Schroeder]

Yeah I've spent a fair bit of time with real-time applications over the past couple years. There's some exciting potential but I think it's widespread use in Viz is a ways off for a few reasons.

 

I've primarily played with CryEngine and UDK, of which both are quite visually impressive; CryEngine especially so. However, there are a lot of quirks and 'extra steps' in a realtime workflow that add massive amounts of time on top of a regular 'pre-rendered' workflow. For the resulting quality, I'm not sure it's currently worth it.

 

For example, every mesh in a realtime setting needs to be heavily optimised, reducing polygon count as much as possible and of course normal mapping anything with any surface detail. This means building a high-detail model, then an 'in engine' model which needs to be completely UV'd, and then all maps baked out. Textures almost always need to be either square, or 'power of 2' and usually kept under 2048x2048. Realtime lighting is another subject altogether, and heavy use of baked lightmaps is pretty common.

 

Back on topic, I tried Cinema4D today... it's great! I love the interface, and definitely feel happier working in my native OS X. I love the renderer, I still think it's one of the better 'in the box' renderers. MoGraph is a LOT of fun too, so much stuff can be done with that! Which kinda brings me on to a question to you guys with experience in Product Viz or Motion Graphics; I'd love to dip my toes in that industry given the chance. Is it a simple enough transition from an Arch Viz background? Is there much work available for freelancers?

 

I'm very close to pulling the trigger on a license of C4D Studio, but I'm concerned by the comments here about not being the industry standard. I don't disagree, I know Max/VRay has long been the industry workhorse setup, but what caveats/problems am I likely to run into if I do run a Cinema4D setup? It's clearly capable of delivering from an aesthetic point of view, but I'm keen to know of any issues I may run into outside of that factor.

 

However, my reseller is twisting my arm a bit about going with Max. I'm really torn here.

The thing is, my budget will strictly only permit me to go with Max at this stage, or C4D. No extras, no plugins, no model libraries yet.

 

So, it's either Max on its own, or C4D on its own, both are exactly the same price. I'd love some extra perspective here because I'm struggling to make the choice.

 

Thanks!

 

One word to save all sorts of time with UDK, or any engine. Modularity. Not only with your models but with your textures as well. Any arch viz scene can be broken down into a few pieces you can use over and over again.

http://www.thiagoklafke.com/modularenvironments.html

 

You have to completely flip your arch viz pipeline on it's head and think more like a gaming environment artist. This represents a major shift in most pipelines that people know, which is why real time seems to get poo-poo'd by our industry.

 

But back to the topic. MR is easy to pick up if you know Vray. Look up Jeff Patton's blog and his videos and you'll pretty much understand MR in one night. It's really similar to Vray in it's concepts. Yes, MR has most shaders that Vray has. MR isn't as robust in it's inner workings as Vray, but still is a very high quality rendering engine.

[Tommy L]

One word to save all sorts of time with UDK, or any engine. Modularity. Not only with your models but with your textures as well. Any arch viz scene can be broken down into a few pieces you can use over and over again.

http://www.thiagoklafke.com/modularenvironments.html

 

You have to completely flip your arch viz pipeline on it's head and think more like a gaming environment artist. This represents a major shift in most pipelines that people know, which is why real time seems to get poo-poo'd by our industry.

 

But back to the topic. MR is easy to pick up if you know Vray. Look up Jeff Patton's blog and his videos and you'll pretty much understand MR in one night. It's really similar to Vray in it's concepts. Yes, MR has most shaders that Vray has. MR isn't as robust in it's inner workings as Vray, but still is a very high quality rendering engine.

 

I'd actually say that MR is a MORE complete render engine than Vray. As a result it has a steeper learning curve, just like Max vs C4D. If you want a tool that does everything then you need a little more patience to learn it. And thats coming from a Vray user...

[LongMozart]

I'd actually say that MR is a MORE complete render engine than Vray. As a result it has a steeper learning curve, just like Max vs C4D. If you want a tool that does everything then you need a little more patience to learn it. And thats coming from a Vray user...

 

That is interesting. Can you be a bit more specific? I know that MR allows you to program your own shaders which is a huge feature. But apart from that what features are missing in V-Ray?

[Ernest Burden III]

Given the disproportionately heavy use of Max in Arch-Viz, perhaps that's the one to buy IF you are thinking you will be working for someone else sooner or later. If you will be a freelancer, either is a good idea. Both can do just about anything, both have vRay and other non-native engines available. I use C4D. Rarely do I need Mograph, particles, character animation or dynamics, but they're all in there.