Economy aside, how stable is Arch-Viz likely to be in the future?

[Creationtwentytwo]

Yeah I think I'm gonna stick with Max. I remade the 'test' scene I'd done in C4D the other day and it just felt a lot more comfortable and was obviously able to work much much faster. It's far more than what I originally planned to spend and it's emptied my budget completely but at least once it's bought then that's the big initial cost out the way.

 

I'm debating taking a small loan to cover VRay although based on the comments here I may just see how I get on with mentalRay. Having played with it a bit today, it's the materials and lights that intimidate me more than the render settings. The A+D materials are a bit of a different beast to what I'm used to and I'm still trying to wrap my head around the sun/sky/exposure stuff.

 

I think you're all right though, deviating from what is, has been and will likely to continue to be the industry standard, especially when I'm swapping files with clients/colleagues would be a pretty silly move.

[Tommy L]

Given the disproportionately heavy use of Max in Arch-Viz, perhaps that's the one to buy IF you are thinking you will be working for someone else sooner or later. If you will be a freelancer, either is a good idea. Both can do just about anything, both have vRay and other non-native engines available. I use C4D. Rarely do I need Mograph, particles, character animation or dynamics, but they're all in there.

I worked on an animation with VRay in C4D. It was a complex piece and I found that the C4D implementation of VRay was inferior. I couldnt bring down render times without sacrificing alot of AA quality. It was the only job Ive ever had to use a commercial farm for. I think C4D is still on release 1.2 and is skipping 1.5 to develop 2.2 so maybe that was the issue.

[Scott Schroeder]

I'd actually say that MR is a MORE complete render engine than Vray. As a result it has a steeper learning curve, just like Max vs C4D. If you want a tool that does everything then you need a little more patience to learn it. And thats coming from a Vray user...

 

I learned MR after I learned Vray so I thought it wasn't so bad. I think Vray has more bells and wing-dings to it. MR has adopted a slider based approach for a lot of their stuff. But to each their own.

 

I got the MR interior/exterior vids from Jeff Patton and had it down pat in a day or so.

[Justin Hunt]

The docs that cover the A&D shaders that ship with max are the best resource. They are a very versatile shader and the presets will get you a long way. They may seem like that have a lot of settings, but that is only because there are a lot of in build features such as AO, round corners and light emitting self illumination.

 

One area many people struggle with is controlling FG and Photons. They can take a while to get used to but once you get your head around how they work you can get decent results quite quickly.

 

I second the Jeff Patton vids as well as his blog

 

jhv

[Tommy L]

There is some kind of a magic presets plugin for MR render settings, cant remember what its called but a google search should find it.

[Justin Hunt]

http://forums.cgarchitect.com/70708-infinity-visions-mental-ray-renderpack-3dsmax2013-ready-download.html

 

Not tried it but have been keeping an eye on it for a while.

 

jhv

[Creationtwentytwo]

Thanks guys, appreciate the responses. Some great resources too.

 

Unfortunately I'm going to have to drop the idea of Max. I've been talking in depth with both Autodesk UK and a few different resellers and since the new price increase, I'm just not going to be able to afford it. When I first stared looking into what I needed to purchase, I was looking at £2500 for Max, VRay, and a few model libraries. I'm now looking at over £6000 and I just cannot afford that at all.

 

Even without VRay and any model libraries, Max is going to be around £3200 + subscription which is still just not feasible right now.

 

The alternative is to go with the Cinema4D/VRay option (which I can get for £2500) but I'm still not sure that's such a wise move due to that longstanding support and dominant user base with Max. It's a package I'm not really familiar enough with, there's a lack of model libraries available for it, a lack of plugins in comparison to Max, and as mentioned in the thread, VRay isn't 'quite there yet'.

 

I'm starting to think I'm just gonna drop the idea altogether and go back to animation school as mentioned in my OP!

 

Such a ridiculous move on Autodesk's part, how they think graduates are going to be able to afford £5000 I just don't know.

 

Thanks again for all the help guys, I really appreciate it.

[Fooch]

Tom, here's my 2 cents. Yes it can be expansive ... (wait till you get machines , render boxes and gasp the first big electricity bill. I can tell you, i nearly crapped my pants looking at it) .. but if your work is good , you will get clients. Plus if you charge well , you will be able to afford it.

 

Starting a business is tough. If you feel you dont have a buffer and cant afford to survive 3-6 months before getting any serious work, dont do it. Work for teams in the industry. Build your skill set and budget buffer. The cost might seem a lot at first but its actually minute compared to the startup wage/strucutre cost for any company.

 

If you are good enough, or getting better ... get paid to learn. Work with the best ppl. get experience and contacts in the industry

[Creationtwentytwo]

Thanks Fooch.

 

I understand that a few thousand is nothing compared to the majority of other business ventures, but it's still a lot more than I have. I guess you're right though, even if I could afford the startup costs, I'd need to cover myself for a few months also.

 

The only thing I've got against working in-house somewhere is basically just relocation. Right now, I'm not in a position to relocate and where I'm currently based (midlands UK), there are no studios in the surrounding area. However, in 18 months or so that situation will change and I actually want to look at relocating in the future, so it may become an opportunity then.

[Scott Schroeder]

I did some digging and it looks like the only student upgrade option is to the Suite? So you'd get even more software that you'd never use? IE Maya, Mudbox, etc? Granted, Mudbox is great for arch viz in the sculpting is faster than modeling for certain things like cushions. But that's another software you'd have to learn. This whole new scheme blows. I teach Max and at my school we have all Autodesk student licenses for any product for free, renewing every 13 months as long as you are a student. Many of my students are graduating and looking into purchasing a full license, and now this crap. Esp for the buggy turd that 2013 has turned out to be.

 

I guess Autodesk is taking a bath in dev costs for 2013 trying to get hotfixes out so they need to get their money back somehow.

[Creationtwentytwo]

Yep, you're right on the money.

 

According to the resellers, Autodesk are saying they want to push their Suite sales now (which as you say could well be down to an attempt to recover massive dev costs). This even applies to students and there is just no upgrade path whatsoever to standalone licenses for students, only to Suites.

 

So yes, you get a whole bunch of irrelevant software, it's quite ridiculous. Mudbox, as you say is pretty great (although I do prefer ZBrush), but I'm not quite sure which individual would require both Max and Maya, as well as XSI, MotionBuilder, and Sketchbook Pro, heck there probably aren't even many studios that use all of them in their pipeline.

 

The thing is, some of their Building Design Suites do complement each other well, like AutoCAD, Revit etc bundled makes sense, I guess what they've done is thought 'hmmm we need a Suite for the movie/games industry, lets just shove all our remaining packages together and call it Entertainment Creation'.

 

But I agree, it's ludicrous and I can't see many students upgrading at all anymore. The thing is, sure, they were only making £700 or so per student on upgrades, but thoses students would most likely have got on a subs plan and over time, spent just as much as other commercial buyers, but now they're not even going to get on the ladder.

 

I'm yet to hear what officially motivated this price increase, but I doubt we'll ever know for sure.

[Dimitris Tolios]

For the vast majority of work you will get as a freelancer working from your home office, I insist that any platform with access to a good GI renderer can generate more than decent, marketable results. For simple architectural work, and interiors you could say even identical. The fact that most jaw-dropping work out there usually involves 3DS, it doesn't make the artists behind this works incapable of producing awe with Sketchup. Do not forget that.

 

I also insist that C4D is growing in popularity, at least in the US where I live the last few years. It's a powerful tool, has its perks and it is also Mac compatible, making a lot of fanboys happy (it runs on Win too, so fortunately you don't need to make a thread about how insanely expensive your Mac tower has to be). The increased popularity is also evident by the increase in commercially available libraries for it too:Evermotion for example is "investing" a lot of time in the C4D market despite being one of the best sources for 3DS.

 

If Max is already what you are familiar with, and the difference is 700 pounds or so, don't sweat it too much. You can still get that cutting some corners and building up your own furniture and prop libraries. It's actually a great way to practice and improve your skills, both in quality and efficiency.

 

You can use Mental Ray that comes bundled with 3DS...your rendering workflow is what? 85-90% identical between the two renderers for relatively simple stuff, so VRay is not mandatory by any stretch. And excuse me if I mention regular and simple that often, I don't know how advanced your skills are - I just believe know what still keeps the average client happy, and that's what I am referring to.

[Creationtwentytwo]

Thanks, DTolios.

 

I see your points. I'm not sure if I mentioned it in the thread but I am indeed using a Mac. I've been a Mac user for about 6 years and I actually have a license of CS5.5 Production Premium for Mac, so technically C4D would actually be more ideal than BootCamping Windows to run Max.

 

I'm very tempted to go with C4D, I'm partial to it a bit since it was the first 3D package I learned.

 

Man, I must come across as the most indecisive guy ever!

[Dimitris Tolios]

Thanks, DTolios.

 

I see your points. I'm not sure if I mentioned it in the thread but I am indeed using a Mac. I've been a Mac user for about 6 years and I actually have a license of CS5.5 Production Premium for Mac, so technically C4D would actually be more ideal than BootCamping Windows to run Max.

 

I'm very tempted to go with C4D, I'm partial to it a bit since it was the first 3D package I learned.

 

Man, I must come across as the most indecisive guy ever!

 

I don't think there are any workflow killers worse than the need for a reboot for you to access two software packages that need to be operated at the same time in so many occasions...I've been teaming up with Mac users in school, and it was so cumbersome I could not take it after a point! I don't know how faster it can be if all of them had a decent 256 SSD, but those 5400rpm HDDs some hideously expensive MBPs came with were irritating.

 

Still, you have to think seriously about your options, and it's not that bad you are indecisive. Forum talk is so cheap after all

[RyderSK]

I don't think there are any workflow killers worse than the need for a reboot for you to access two software packages that need to be operated at the same time in so many occasions...I've been teaming up with Mac users in school, and it was so cumbersome I could not take it after a point! I don't know how faster it can be if all of them had a decent 256 SSD, but those 5400rpm HDDs some hideously expensive MBPs came with were irritating.

 

Still, you have to think seriously about your options, and it's not that bad you are indecisive. Forum talk is so cheap after all

 

Hehe, my main modeler works in this fashion, and it brings me to tears as well :- D She will model in Max (which I forced her to use from C4D, but only for our own compatibility sake) then switch to Mac to use Photoshop instead there....and so forth. I gave her money to buy SSD though, since I can't persuade her to keep windows only on Macpro ( I know...but I don't care)

[Creationtwentytwo]

Yeah switching between OS's is far from ideal, even with an SSD.

 

Oftentimes I'll be working side by side with Photoshop, especially when UV'ing and such so it's not even feasible. If I work in Windows I'd have to grab another license of PS.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Creationtwentytwo

[Ernest Burden III]

Best of luck! Feel free to post C4D questions. I use it on PC and my business partner uses it on Mac. Also, with vRay/C4D you don't need a hardware lock and their forum is very good with a lot of arch-vis people.

 

In the end, it is not so much the software you use but the images you create that counts.

[Derek Forreal]

For the vast majority of work you will get as a freelancer working from your home office, I insist that any platform with access to a good GI renderer can generate more than decent, marketable results. For simple architectural work, and interiors you could say even identical.

 

i couldn't agree more. there's so much talk here of the software, but for 9/10 images i'd say you only need 1/10 of Max's tools (if that) and really, you can use pretty much any software to get the same result.

 

i don't understand why users constantly moan about the price and underdevelopment of AD products but then continue to not only slavishly invest in them, but also push newcomers to the industry to do the same.

 

the OP isn't even sure that this is the right career move, yet many are suggesting he blindly invest thousands of pounds in tools which have free powerful alternatives. so what if you already know Max? that will make it easier to learn how to use some other software. it's not a reason to feel trapped into never venturing outside your comfort zone.

 

what software can you use for ArchVis? modo, Lightwave (especially with LWCAD plugin), C4D, SketchUp, Bonsai3D, and of course Blender, which is free and fully featured, and these are just some of the alternatives. all of these allow you to model anything you like and render it with an army of different render engines.

 

granted, Max has more resources than other software but all the available pre made models can be imported into pretty much any software and then textured, so is it that different? how many 3rd party models have you ever used where you haven't personalised the materials anyway? if the answer is 'lots' then how do you expect your work to stand out?

 

honestly, Max/Vray certainly isn't the be all end all it's made out to be. yes, the vast majority of great renders come out of it, but that's only because the user base is much larger. for every great render there are also hundreds of dreadful ones, and that's the same with any tool in any industry.

 

my £0.02, there are tons of free tutorials, assets, textures, models and software that you don't need to invest a penny to get started. forget about the software and focus on creating:

 

In the end, it is not so much the software you use but the images you create that counts.

[Creationtwentytwo]

Thanks Ernest, I'll be sure to get in touch if I hit any stumbling blocks with Cinema!

 

Thanks Derek, some great comments, and encouraging too.

 

I suppose it's only cross-compatibility I'm concerned about, but that's due to my inexperience in the field. I suppose once i've got a few jobs under my belt I'll be in a better position to understand any potential issues I may have and how to get around them.

 

I agree though, it's always the end result that matters and how you got there or indeed what you used to make it isn't always irrelevant. It's still such a prominent question, though, and I'm guilty of asking it myself when I started out 'What software did you use to create this?!!' etc etc. I'm 5 or 6 years deep now though so I should know better really!

 

I'm happy with my choice though, I think it may even help in the sense that learning a new package may encourage some workflow quirks and 'happy-accidents' which otherwise might not have happened.

[Creationtwentytwo]

Well, in an interesting turn of events, I've had a bit of a change of plan.

 

I've purchased student versions of VRay, Photoshop, and of course I already have Max/Mudbox, some Evermotion Trees, I also bought a new license of Window 7 since I have been using Win 8 CP.

 

The plan is now to use all of this to build a solid portfolio and get a website up and running over the next 6 months or so, and start shopping myself out for some work. At that point, if I get some leads and commercial work is looking likely, then I can upgrade to the commercial licenses once I know there'll be a return on investment.

 

I think that seems a sensible 'low-risk' option. I'm certainly feeling a lot more comfortable about it too.

[RyderSK]

Well, in an interesting turn of events, I've had a bit of a change of plan.

 

I've purchased student versions of VRay, Photoshop, and of course I already have Max/Mudbox, some Evermotion Trees, I also bought a new license of Window 7 since I have been using Win 8 CP.

 

The plan is now to use all of this to build a solid portfolio and get a website up and running over the next 6 months or so, and start shopping myself out for some work. At that point, if I get some leads and commercial work is looking likely, then I can upgrade to the commercial licenses once I know there'll be a return on investment.

 

I think that seems a sensible 'low-risk' option. I'm certainly feeling a lot more comfortable about it too.

 

 

If you have money to support yourself over those 6 months, that's good. Spend them wisely ! Many people take time to build up portfolio, but then slack... make only enough free time to go to gym and some occasional beer/party, not the other way :- )

[Creationtwentytwo]

Thanks Juraj!

 

Yep I totally know where you're coming from, procrastination has been an enemy of mine in the past.

 

Fortunately I do have my day job to support me for a while, and I can work on my folio during downtime so that's great.

 

I think the combination of actually spending a few hundred pounds on software, as well as the motivation to 'make it' paired with my love of actually doing it should get me there

[Scott Schroeder]

The best motivation for portfolio work is getting into challenges. It may be a little late to do the CGArchitect awards, but other sites always have something going on. CG Society's Hardcore modeling, Game Artist's mini challenges, Polycount's challenges, Evermotion, etc. Any of those challenges listed have an arch viz component or at least prop/furniture modeling area for you to get better at.

 

It gives you a deadline to work for. Or if all else, hold off on getting that new item you want. Don't allow yourself to get it until you finish a certain piece of work.

[layip]

I got a similar degree with you: architecture design, ^_^ totally agree with you

Agree pretty much wholly with the last comment. I came from a similar background, interior architecture degree, professional practise and then realisation. It is indeed an exciting, growing industry which is evolving so fast. Creativity is an absolutely necessity for longevity.

 

 

 

 

We don't feed chickens and cows in the farm, we have machines http://foxrenderfarm.com

Edited May 16, 2012 by layip

[amanbhargava]

The best motivation for portfolio work is getting into challenges. It may be a little late to do the CGArchitect awards, but other sites always have something going on. CG Society's Hardcore modeling, Game Artist's mini challenges, Polycount's challenges, Evermotion, etc. Any of those challenges listed have an arch viz component or at least prop/furniture modeling area for you to get better at.

 

It gives you a deadline to work for. Or if all else, hold off on getting that new item you want. Don't allow yourself to get it until you finish a certain piece of work.

 

100% agreed! The best way to actually motivate yourself is to enter a contest - if anything, it gives you a deadline to work with, and no matter where you end up working, the deadline will be your worst enemy. Not to mention, you're making a kicka** portfolio for yourself on the side!