System Ideas

[bully712]

I'm a 3D Architectural Designer for an Architectural Firm. I always get frustrated when I know that my renderings could be a lot better if only I had the right tools to work with. Also convincing my company that it would be benificial to have the ultimate machine is useless, being there lack of knowledge of the power needed to process such images. We are stuck on a company building our machines, with lack of certain hardware. First off, I will tell you what I am currently using, and I will ask a few questions:

 

Dual AMD Athlon 1.4 Ghz Processors

1 Gb of Ram

Elsa Gloria III 64 mb Quadro2 Pro

Windows XP

 

Programs Frequently used:

Viz 4

ADT 2004

Photoshop

 

Any suggestions on better Hardware/Software would be appreciated.

 

Include extras like plugins, and rendering engines for Viz to speed up rendering time, and the quality of the rendering.

 

Please be specific in all. For example: Vray would be great for such and such, and even The power supply needed for the CPU.

 

I've been in the field for almost 6 years, and considering the strict deadlines, my images are getting better, but Again I'm just frustrated with the reality of the images, and I know they could look a lot better with the goodies.

 

Thank you,

Marc

[Elliot]

Marc,

 

Take a look at the other thread called The Ideal Computer Configuration

 

 

You are not the only one with these questions. Many people are confronting these issues. I am gun shy about up-grading. The improvements are too expensive for what they are improving on your production time.

 

See you

Elliot

[Devin Johnston]

Marc,

I know exactly what you mean about having a hard time convincing your company to buy the type of machine that you need to be the most productive. I struggled for years with slow machines and always found it hard to justify the large price tags to the bosses until I discovered that most companies want you to be as productive as possible. What most of us know is that the people we work for don't understand how renderings and animations work, all they know is you can do it and the push you to get it done as fast as possible. What you need to do is show them just how much more productive you will be with the faster system. What I did was kept track of how much time I spend sitting and waiting for the computer to finish rendering. I found that when doing radiosity in Max I would wait about 10 hours a week for the computer to do its calculations and render before I could make changes and start the process over again. Once they saw the numbers it was easy to get them to fork over the money for new workstations.

 

As for the hardware if your going to get a dual processor AMD system then your going to be getting Opteron chip. The Athlon is the same thing but they are only used in the single processor systems. I would get at least 2 gigs of ram and more if you can afford it, besides the processor memory is the second most important thing.

[bully712]

Thanks Maxer! That reply was a huge help. You nailed it. That's exactly how I feel. Since you won you bosses approval, what system set up did you end up getting? and how much did it approve your images, and rednering speeds?

 

Thanks,

Marc

[Devin Johnston]

I was fortunate that during one of my more intense projects one of the VP's was standing at my desk, and he was able to experience how long my render times were taking. After I presented how much time and money they would save by "investing" in some new hardware they almost fell over them selves buying the stuff.

Up until that time I had been using Max radiosity to do all of my interiors and some exteriors. I switched to Final Render and they purchased 5 dual processor render boxxes and a super fast dual processor workstation, all AMD Opterons. The render boxes were all dual Opteron 244's, with 2 gigs of DDR333 ram, 80 gig 7200rpm SATA drives, and a gigabit ethernet connection. The work stations was a dual Opteron 246 with 4 gigs of ram, and a 80 gig 10,000 rpm SATA drive, with a Nvidia Quadro 1100 video card. The speed increase was tremendous, my renderings are taking about 1/5 the time that they used to, and I'm getting much better results. We figured that the upgrades would pay for them selves in about 3 months and I'm on a 2 year cycle for hardware replacement.

[bully712]

Wow that setup sounds awesome. Especially the 5 render boxes, since we are talking about creating more animations. The whole thing with the workstations is that they (my company) are so concerned with our server. We use Novel Client, and they do not want to use any operating system other then Windows xp, because they are afraid of it not being compatible with one another. I’m due for a new machine at the end of the year, and I want to convince the IT department, and the Principals of my company, to buy the right components for my needs. They get a local company in town to build our computers, and I don’t think they have a clue when putting together a dual processor configuration. About 6 months after I got my current computer, they had to upgrade, because it was over heating.

I did finally get them to purchase final render, and it’s been great creating light emitters from any object, but do you know what its lacking? My time to create the image as it should be. For an example: two weeks ago I was rendering an interior atrium which had a 3 story glass curtain wall. I used some raytracing on the glass for a little more realistic look. You know what? After 3 hrs. and only rendering half of it, I had to call it quits. I ended up faking in some of the reflections, so I could get it done on time. Even then it still wasn’t complete.

You’ve been very helpful in your responses. I can probably talk them in to getting the workstation, but for the time being, I’m going to have to hold off on the render boxes, even though I have an animation coming up on a $90million job, and I’m the only one using VIZ. If you have any other suggestion, please feel free to share them with me. Thanks

[mbr]

I am also a final render user. One thing you that would help you immediately is ram. GI eats ram like crazy!! I am surprised you can even get things done with 1 gig. I started with 768 mbs in my workstation and it kept crashing, forcing me to use the method (I forget what it's called, there is Scene MSP and something else - it's the other one).

I was advised by the fR forum to get more ram, I upgrade to 1.5 and no problems yet. I've never used more than that, but come really close.

 

But some ram!! For a hundred or so you could easily get a lot more and you'd see immediate difference with fR. Look at your task manager while rendering to see the usage.

 

Maxer - you must be one sweet talker!! That's a hell of a system you've got!

 

The only time I've ever used more than 2 gigs of ram was for some real time stuff I am working on now, but for pure rendering that's about the baseline. I can't imagine ever needing 4 gigs, but hey, if you've got someone buying all that stuff why not?

So did you get them to get you some dual 24" Sony LCDs? ;-)

[Devin Johnston]

I wish, I'm still using two 19" CRT Mitsubishi's, It's killing my eyes!!!

[Elliot]

Devin

 

What would be your ideal monitor to buy. I have one Viewsonic LCD, one Viewsonic and one Mitsubishi (small one). My favorite one is the small Mitsubishi. It is only like 15 inches. My children use that one. I don't like the LCD but it is an old one with poor resolution.

 

I am looking at two flat screen Viewsonic 19". I sam them at a local store and they look great. Would you go with LCD now that the technology has advance. My brother is a neuroradiologist, he reads delicate X Ray of brain angiograms..... They send these X Rays to his house through the internet. He used to have a very expensive glass monitor at home. Now he just has a plasma monitor. It was not expensive.... he tells me it is OK for most of the things he does. He is a computer geek, we have connected his plasma monitor to the computer and made comparisons between the Viewsonic LCD he has and the plasma.... The Viewsonic looks great.

 

Should we be afraid of radiations on a CRT specially when two of them are looking and aiming at your head..... Is there any similar dangers with the radiations out of an LCD.

 

Somebody in the workstation sales industry has recommended I stay with high resolution CRT since they have better color and definition, according to him. TRhey are also less expensive.... However, the real problem is the amount of real estate they occupy.

 

What do you think.....? The local Samsung dealer showed me two nice CRT's mounted side by side on and arm. I liked the idea the arm can be relocated almost anywhere you want with relative ease of manuevering. These monitors he showed me where 19". He could go sideways, up and down, move diagonaly and many other positions.

 

 

Thanks

Elliot

[Brian Cassil]

What I did was kept track of how much time I spend sitting and waiting for the computer to finish rendering.

 

Great idea! I'm going to start doing that right away. I've been pushing to get a "rendering server" for a long time now. I've told the people that write the checks that I spend a lot of time waiting for renderings but never given them a real number. I think that might be the kick in the pants they need. I don't think there is anyway I'll get 5 like you have but just one to start with would make me happy.

 

Interesting that there are so many FR users in this thread because that's what I use as well. I know it's a memory hog like none other and I have gone over 2 gigs many times, and since ram is relatively cheap I'm going to request 4 gigs.

 

Funny, when I first posted the idea of having one computer for working on, and another one for rendering on a year ago people thought I was crazy but it seems the idea is catching on now.

[Devin Johnston]

Elliot,

There are two reasons I don't have an LCD monitor yet, one is cost, for the price of one LCD screen I can get two CRT monitors. The second reason is the resolution and color, LCD screens can't display the range of color a CRT screen can, and if color correctness is important to you then stick with the CRT for now. I know there are people who will swear by the LCD's and that’s fine, but for me I'm going to wait till they surpass LCD's.

[Elliot]

Devin,

 

Same here. I have both but I like my inexpensive Mitsubishi better.

 

Now, If I stick with glasss CRT, which one should I get. I am looking at 19". Everybody is recomending the Viewsonic P95F. Do you know anything about this monitor or similar series.

 

I have a Viewsonic 19 Profesional series and it looks great. The P95 is supposed to the replacement of the one I have. It is at my little office in Florida and I don't recall the catalogue number.

 

Thanks

ELliot

[Devin Johnston]

I have the Mitsubishi Diamond Pro 930sb, it was recommended by the company that calabrated all of our monitors. Actually all of the monitors in the office are Mistubishi, we've had very good luck with them. I do have an older Viewsonic at home it's only a 17" but I've had it for about 5 years and I haven't had any problems with it.

[Elliot]

Devin,

 

Thanks for the info..... I guess I like the inexpensive Mitsubishi more, it is more clear and the colors are better. They are about the same price.

 

Thanks

Elliot

[Brian Cassil]

I have the Mitsubishi Diamond Pro 930sb

 

I have that exact same monitor and it is hands down the best monitor I've ever had. I only wish my second monitor matched!

[Elliot]

Devin and Brian,

 

I went to look at the Mitsubishi Diamond Pro 930sb monitor. I looks very good. Question.... on paper the refresh rate of the Viewsonic is better..... On the other hand, the dot pitch on Diaond is better....!

 

Does the Mitsubishi Diamond Pro 930sb comes with some kind of color calibration gimmick.....?

 

I am about to make the decision on which monitors to get, once again, I am thouroughly confused.....!

 

Thanks

Elliot

[bully712]

Devin,

 

It worked like a charm. I emailed my boss today with concerns about computer speed and time wasted. I was actually surprised when my comments about time wasted were consistent with his. I copied the email he sent back to me below. He is now looking for spec sheets on hardware, and what the purpose each one is for. I'm kind of lost when it comes to the specifics. I just know I need more speed. I feel a strong sense of knowledge from you guy when dealing with these issues. I just need hard facts. You can read what he wrote below, and comment on it. It will be very much appreciated. I also brought up an Idea about using 2 monitors, being that I switch back and fourth between Autocad, and Viz many times a day. Any thoughts on a good card for dual monitors?

 

Marc,

 

Thanks for the information. Your approach to thinking about time saved is absolutely consistent with the way we look at this issue. Your timing in providing this information is perfect, we are just starting to evaluate upgrades for this fall and assumed we would replace your PC.

 

There should be no problem getting exactly what we need/want from any one of a couple of vendors we deal with. We switched to people like MBX because previous vendors were not able to fully customize a box the way we wanted it. The motherboard and chipset are as important as anything else for reliability and performance.

 

While we have used AMD processors before, they have not always been as reliable as Intel processors. I've switched back and forth between love/hate AMD several times. There will always be a debate, like Ford vs. Chevy pickups, about which is best. We need to evaluate the processors for the kind of use we have and select the best price/performance relationship. Jim, Travis, & I have already been talking about the performance comparisons between multiple processors and multi-threading processors. Any good statistical reports you can share with us would be appreciated. We would be very interested in seeing any hard data on performance with 3D Max relative to the amount of RAM, processor, video card, etc.

 

What else have you heard about hardware specifics that we should consider? Sounds like the one person is using a rendering farm of some sort, but every time we set one up here, it seems to go unused. I want some real commitment that we will use it before we put more money into something like that. I have been a proponent of speeding things up this way for years (we used to do it all the time many years ago) and have been miffed that we set it up and it goes unused.

 

We also just talked about the possibility of needing to upgrade the graphics cards and RAM for ADT2004 due to the increased 3D graphics load you mention.

 

Sounds like we need to upgrade our Viz too due to ADT2004. I'll talk to CAD Research about the cost and try to get that moving. Where did you get the cost information you listed? Are they list prices? BTW, I think we have two copies to upgrade.

 

I'd like some more information in Adobe Premier to be sure it is the "right" package. I assume that this is an animation package, is that correct? What are the alternatives and pros/cons?

 

Please work with Jim to provide the details and copy me on the messages so Jim & I can discuss the options.

 

Thanks again for your interest in improving the process.

 

So you can see what he's now asking of me. He just want's to make sure we are getting the right stuff. Thanks a million!

[Elliot]

Marc,

 

I have been researching this thing for a while. It used to be I could build them for less than actually assembling these units. That is not the case anymore.... I found an outfit that can beat me in the cost of assembling the unit. I had a very candid conversation with them, they claim that the volumes at which they buy carry additional discounts not obtainable by the little shops.

 

On the monitor issue, once again I went tonight to one of the local shops and saw a Sony monitor that really impressed me.

 

http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0177151

 

http://displaysbysony.com/display/model.jsp?pCode=&pModelId=658&pMenu=Specs

 

At both stores I saw some very interesting LCD monitors.

 

I am confused.....!

 

Marc, here are the specs of the machine I am looking at:

 

Systems Includes:

* SuperMicro X6DA8-G2

* Dual Xeon 3.60 Processors

* 2GB RAM (dual 1G DDR2)

* 148GB Hard Drive Space (dual Seagate 74GB 15,000RPM in RAID 0 form)

* nVidia Quadro FX3400 Series

* 16x DVD-CDRW Combo drive (black)

* 8x Dual DVD+/-RW drive (black)

* 1.44 Floppy drive (black)

* 645W Quite Power Supply

* Soundblaster Audigy2 ZS Platinum Pro

* Microsoft Windows XP Professional

* 1 Year Parts

* Lifetime Labor and Technical Support

 

Total: $6,625

 

It is based on this case by Supermicro:

http://www.supermicro.com/products/system/4U/7044/SYS-7044A-82.cfm?PID=TWR

 

Marc, we are a small company, I am one of two partners, I am having a lot of troubles justifying the machine. The son of the other partner is our IT guy and he is good. I askeded him to figure this thing out. He builds all of our machines, he can not even get the parts for this spec's. There is very few shops selling these Xeon's at 3.6ghz. They want to retain them to build their machines. The video card goes for about $1150.00. I am confused, I think a good gamer card for about 400.00 will do the same. I even think that a good laptop (4,200.00) can probably do 80 to 90% percent of what the big unit will do. I could carry the laptop with me. That big unit is not very easy to carry around... Hi Hi Most of the times I do the presentations at the offices of the clients. I can load my laptop and off I go.....

 

I just went through the same exercise on a camera. I purchased a Nikon D1... Two weeks later the D70 came out. The Nikon D70 was better. I convinced the shop to take back the D1 if I buy the D70 with all the available lenses. Like $6,000.00 later it turns out I am not happy with the D70 either. Now the camera guy calls me today (He knows I am not happy) telling me that Nikon is about to release the D3.... A 15 mega pixel full size chip camera. No more compromising with a small chip. That means that all my Nikon lenses will work.... No more 1.5 magnification cropping factor. This is in a period of 4 months the camera has basically gone obsolete.

 

This is the problem, you buy these things and two days later they become obsolete and probably the new version will be less expensive. Follow the path on the software.... after many bells and whistles kind of upgrade V2005 is very similar to Viz3.....

 

Good Luck

Elliot

[Devin Johnston]

Marc,

As far as a dual video card goes I have a Nvidia Quadro 1100 in my machine, it works great and it's only about $600 which isn't that expensive for a good graphics card. I would stay away from ATI cards, I think they are a little cheaper but the experience I've had with them hasn’t been good, the don't seem to handle open GI as well as the Nvidia cards do.

 

"Any good statistical reports you can share with us would be appreciated. We would be very interested in seeing any hard data on performance with 3D Max relative to the amount of RAM, processor, video card, etc."

 

http://www.tech-report.com/reviews/2003q4/opteron-x48/index.x?pg=2

 

Check this link out it will compare the Opteron and the Xeon chips. I did a lot of looking before we went with the AMD processors and basically what made the decision for us was the fact that they can run both 32 and 64 bit operations. When the new Windows OS comes out and the programs eventually change over to 64 bit you will see a significant performance increase without having to upgrade your hardware. If you go with Xeon you won't be able to do anything without upgrading your hardware. As for RAM the more the better, 2 Gigs would be a minimum especially if you are going to be using something like Final Render, it's a memory hog.

 

"Sounds like the one person is using a rendering farm of some sort, but every time we set one up here, it seems to go unused"

 

I would strongly recommend that you set up a good rendering farm, it's one of the best resources you can have. Even if the computers are slow in comparison to the one you are using, if enough of them are networked together you will be able to increase your productivity significantly. Not only will you be able to render animations much faster, but you can also use it to render still images.

 

"I'd like some more information in Adobe Premier to be sure it is the "right" package. I assume that this is an animation package, is that correct? What are the alternatives and pros/cons?"

 

Premiere is a video post production package that will allow you to edit video that you create from Viz or Max. If you do any level of animation I would suggest getting this package, it's easy to learn and it will make you life much easier. It also comes with some very powerful codecs for video playback that are much better than the ones that come with Viz. That means you animations will look better and play back smoother. Besides being able to edit your animations you can add effects to the video as well as color correct it, add audio, stills, other clips of video and text. For $700 you really can't beat it, and it saves you time and money. There are other packages out there but Premiere has been around for a long time and it works very well.

 

Hope this helps.

[Elliot]

Devin,

 

After I ordered the equipment last afternoon. They promised a turn around time of 5 working days..... now that they have the PO all a sudden they are saying it will take 15 days to build it.

 

Now after I see your E Mail and reading more on this Opteron vs Intel issue I am more confused. The local guy thinks his best machines are the ones with Opterons but the most reliable are with Xeon's. I don't know anything about AMD. Which is the greatest and latest Opteron...... the "250". Do you know which is the best board to use with them?

 

Thanks

Elliot

[Devin Johnston]

My computer has a Tyan Thunder K8W mother board in it, this board has one advantage that you really need. The way the memory is set up on this board allows each processor to access the memory independently. Other boards are set up so that one of the processors has to go through the other processor to access the memory. Obviously this creates a bottle neck and you definitely don't need that when you’re trying to get all the speed you can out of your system. The 250 is the fastest chip they have out right now, it's definitely a screamer. Here is the web site of the company that I bought my main system from, I've been very happy with it, and they were also much cheaper than Boxx, or Dell was.

 

http://www.xicomputer.com/products/mtoweropmp.asp

[bully712]

My computer has a Tyan Thunder K8W mother board in it

 

Devin,

 

IS this mother board capable of using up to 4 gigs of RAM? I don't know if I'm going to ask for that right off the bat, but it would be nice to add some down the road if need.

 

Another thing, is there an certain numbers I should be looking for when searching for a graphics card?

 

Dealing with Viz, what is the main reason for having a good graphics card? To put it to better sense, What does it speed up or help?

 

Thanks,

Marc

[Devin Johnston]

The mother board can handle up to 16 GB, I have 4 GB on board. As for the graphics card the only time it is going to help you is while you are working on the model. The card will have no effect on render times because it is not used to do anything durring the rendering process, that's why you need lots of processing power and lots of ram. As far as specks on your card goes you should get some kind of AGP-8X card, with a good amount of ram at least 128mb.

[Elliot]

Hello,

 

I am very confused. Mainly because my experience over the years is with Intel (over the last 20 years). I rather keep on going with an Intel based workstation. What I am finding out is that to buy these 3.6ghz is an almost imposible task. The people that have them are speculating to much.

 

After reading your responses and talking with the local AMD guy I have the feeling that I can't go wrong with either chip. Perhaps the AMD Opteron 250 is faster but that's not the whole story.

 

I can get the Opteron locally but not a motherboard that will support the PCI Express for the PNY3400. On the Intel's the best I can do is 3.4ghz locally available but no motherboard and no memory.

 

Can anybody recommend a motherboard for the Opteron that will support the PCI Express video card. Are the Opteron ever going to use the DDR2 memory. What is the most current chipset that I should use with an Opteron. In the case of the Xeon's I heard the best chipset is the 7525.

 

Anybody that has been reading this forum for a while have heard Gregg Hess saying that the important fact is the chipset support. Upon reading several forums I am starting to understand that he is correct. What is the current chipset generation for the Opteron 250? It seems they are still experimenting with this chipset for the Opteron.

 

I am also sure that many of these people putting the workstations together are not as techno geeks as the crowd on this forum. The people here are extremely carefull about their rendering issues.... I would like to hear if there is any supported evidence not to go with the Opterons. I know Greg says it is because the lack of Chipset support. I read a report on the Internet that claims the Opterons not really very well suited for 3DMax.

 

The video card is another story.... But I have made my mind on the Quadro 3400 series. Power Supply is another issue.... I can not find 700 - 645 watts power supplies..... The local vendors are telling me that a 500 - 550 PS is going to be enough...... Not according to what I am reading.... most everybody is recomending 650 - 700 watts.

 

Have you noticed that the big guys started making a lot of noise on the 3.6ghz Xeon's about 3 months ago. However, now they have even removed them from their web sites.... Is there any special reason... or is it availability....? One of the local guys told me that the 3.6ghz are having failures at an early age and the big guys do not want to carry the warranty problems.....! Is this true.....! I think both chips (AMD and Intel) are sensitive too cooling.

 

The more I read and investigate the more confused I am......

 

Thanks

Elliot

 

 

 

 

Thanks

Elliot

[bully712]

Elliot,

 

I agree with you when you say “The more you read, the more confused you get". It’s difficult for everyone to agree on anything specific. Just like my boss said " It's like choosing between Ford or Chevy" The reviews are so mixed, I think once you know how much you should need of what, then it all comes down to the users discretion on what to buy. I ‘m just looking to improve the quality of my renderings in a manner for which it speeds up my productivity in my company, and for my personal satisfaction. I think since there are a lot of professionals in these forums with experience in the field, we should come up with a post called “ Pick your hardware” What I mean is, get anyone to list, in there opinion, a system configuration for which they’ve had success with 3D renderings. List everything from Motherboards, Processors, Ram, Power supply, etc. Hope we get enough responses, take the average of all the configurations, and there’s your machine. It’s almost like playing the lottery. Pick your numbers and see if you’re a winner. This is just my thought on the matter.

 

Marc