buying computer (3dsmax,vray,mari)

[iceboydarkb]

helllo. great site for cgi arhitect renders.

 

i have a 4 year old computer. so i am a little lost with computer components. i am doing research every day but there is way to much information. i am building a computer that i would use for 3dsmax modeling, mari(foundry)-photoshop texturing and vray for rendering.

on the official Mari site the gtx580 is official supported. but the gtx 580 is to expensive for me. so i asked around and they said that 560ti would work with Mari.

 

this is what i have been thinking

 

i5 2500 3,3 or i7 2500 or i5 3550

Asus P8H67-M, VGA, 1155

Kingston ValueRAM DDR3 8 GB

Asus GTX560 Ti 2GB

Corsair 700W GS

 

 

the i5 2500 and i7 2600 are sandy bridge. the i5 3550 is the new ivy bridge? which motherboard would be the best? which processor would be the best for rendering with 800 €

.i think 8GB RAM is enough right? if i have grass and trees in vray i can use vray proxy.

i have around 800€ for the computer. thanks to everyone for the help.

[Dimitris Tolios]

The new Ivy Bridge i7 3770 would be my processor of choice. It's only real weakness is that the smaller die makes it harder to overclock in the same levels as the Sandy generation (2600K/2700K), but the fine-tuned architecture (it’s not really a new generation) makes it faster in similar speeds.

 

The price difference is almost negligible on the CPU itself, and when not O/Ced Ivy Bridge heats up less (CPU temps are actually similar with the Sandy: the die got smaller along with wattage, so the heat per unit of area released is actually more, but in the bigger picture Ivy stresses you PSU less and releases less watts inside your case) and it’s faster. Win-Win.

 

Were companies are now chewing more of our money is with the newer Z77 motherboards which are priced higher when you go for the more advanced stuff: Pro/Deluxe Asus etc.

 

I would say that if you don’t plan on extreme O/Cs etc, you don’t need those full ATX boards. Recently my eye was caught on this Gigabyte m-ATX Z77 board (reviewed by Anandtech: http://www.anandtech.com/show/5850/gigabyte-gaz77mxd3h-review-z77-and-microatx/1). It is cheap, yet has all the bells that really count, including fast speed, 4x dimm slots and 3x full size PCI-e slots with proper spacing so you can actually do dual GPUs. It retails around $130-140 and I don’t see what more would offer in comparison to full size ATXs, unless you think you will ever use the legacy PCI slots. Gigabyte also does not include an intel Ethernet NIC, but neither did Asus before their newer Z77-V line. You save some $60 over the full ATX boards with similar features / performance. I would feel comfortable with any of the Asus / MSI / Gigabyte or Ashrock Z77 mobos out there tbh. The only feature more premium models

 

560Ti is fine. I don’t know if you will really need the 2GB or not…I don’t know if you plan on messing with VRay RT gpu or another GPU accelerated renderer that would probably utilize easily more than 1GB.

 

I would try to save money or increase my budget to include 16GB or Ram. Few scenes will utilize that, but if you are doing scenes with lotsa trees, multiple VRay lights etc, you will do 3-5GBs easily. Ivy bridge likes fast ram, so if you can do at least 1600 or 1866 Ram which does not come with a crazy price premium over the cheaper 1333. Faster than 1866 gives you way less of a performance increase for every $/€ spent.

 

A place to save some money would be the PSU. I would definitely go for a quality PSU, but you won’t need 700Ws or even half that (you should plan on utilizing your PSU around 50-60% to maximize its efficiency but quality units can do more than that easily). Your system realistically won’t use more than 300-400W, unless you load it with 20 more case fans and 5-6 HDDs. If you can save money by going for a 600-650W, feel safe to do so. Seasonic / Corsair (the good corsairs are made by Seasonic), Enermax etc are recommended. Antec / OCZ / Thermaltake etc are usually a tier lower but still quality units. Many other good ones, but let's not stretch it.

 

If you have a website / store in mind that you can give us, I might go through the available stuff and take a pick. I am in the US 3 years now, so I've lost the sense of the EU market, but for €800 you should be able to pull it off without too many compromises.

[iceboydarkb]

The price difference is almost negligible on the CPU itself, and when not O/Ced Ivy Bridge heats up less (CPU temps are actually similar with the Sandy: the die got smaller along with wattage, so the heat per unit of area released is actually more, but in the bigger picture Ivy stresses you PSU less and releases less watts inside your case) and it’s faster. Win-Win.

 

Were companies are now chewing more of our money is with the newer Z77 motherboards which are priced higher when you go for the more advanced stuff: Pro/Deluxe Asus etc.

 

I would say that if you don’t plan on extreme O/Cs etc, you don’t need those full ATX boards. Recently my eye was caught on this Gigabyte m-ATX Z77 board (reviewed by Anandtech: http://www.anandtech.com/show/5850/gigabyte-gaz77mxd3h-review-z77-and-microatx/1). It is cheap, yet has all the bells that really count, including fast speed, 4x dimm slots and 3x full size PCI-e slots with proper spacing so you can actually do dual GPUs. It retails around $130-140 and I don’t see what more would offer in comparison to full size ATXs, unless you think you will ever use the legacy PCI slots. Gigabyte also does not include an intel Ethernet NIC, but neither did Asus before their newer Z77-V line. You save some $60 over the full ATX boards with similar features / performance. I would feel comfortable with any of the Asus / MSI / Gigabyte or Ashrock Z77 mobos out there tbh. The only feature more premium models

 

in the reviews it is

Gigabyte GA-Z77MX-D3H

 

i found Gigabyte GA-Z77M-D3H in my store. this is not the same motherboard right?

 

any good Asus for the new i5 and i7? thanks

Edited May 30, 2012 by iceboydarkb

[Dimitris Tolios]

in the reviews it is

Gigabyte GA-Z77MX-D3H

 

i found Gigabyte GA-Z77M-D3H in my store. this is not the same motherboard right?

 

any good Asus for the new i5 and i7? thanks

 

Asus has 14 or so Z77 motherboards. All of them are decent to excellent. One of the key variations is quality of current regulation reaching the CPU. If you don't plan on overclocking it heavily "better" / more phases etc should mean nothing: most mobos from the manufacturers I've mentioned above are exceeding the minimum specs Intel has set for the 77W Ivy and the 95W Sandy processors. Under high overclocking and with higher than stock voltage, the actual CPU consumption might double that under heavy loads, so then it becomes more important in order to keep it stable.

 

Other differences are the number of added in secondary controllers and extra features like fan headers and speed controls, WiFi modules, manufacturer of the NIC controller and/or more than one NICs etc...the basic Z77 chipset's functionality is maintained with all of them.

 

Any ASUS in the P8Z77-Vline should be more than enough for your needs. The LK/LT models are around $140-150 (with VAT) and the Pro is about $230, with the Deluxe going even higher. I doubt even overclockers really need more than the $190 P8Z77-V that gets the extra voltage control phases etc but does not have extra @@ controllers etc - so you will have to limit yourself to 2x Sata 6GBps devices and 4x 3Gbps - horrible i know...who can live with only that? :p;)

 

I like Asus - probably I would pick the Z77-V for my next build, but Gigabyte is nice too, faster than many full-ATXs and with better PCI-e slot layout than Asus's mATX Z77 which places the full length slots 2 slots apart, when Gigabyte does 3 slots - that leaves room for double width cards (almost all GTXs / Powerful AMD cards are double width or more) to breath better. Asus has an obsession with including legacy PCI slots - many times more than one, though I doubt that even the 1% of their clients will actually use even one of them...

Edited May 30, 2012 by dtolios

[iceboydarkb]

thanks.

 

i will need to decide which processor to buy. i5 3550 or i7 3770. the difference is around 100€. thats a lot. but it will render faster.

 

maybe if i buy i5 3550 now and then update in 2 years with an i7 3770?

[Dimitris Tolios]

I don't control you budget and I don't have numbers to quantify how faster Ivy i7 is over i5 - in real life.

To claim that you will save x % of time from start to finish, as "start" is way before you hit render and finish is way after VRay is done. In-between, 75% of the threads for both the i5 and the i7 are mostly idling, so dropping a number on how faster the i7 is in a benchmark is describing a tree in a forest.

 

If your pocket is pushed, go for the i5.

But if you plan on holding on this PC for 2+ years, then it's what? €100/700 days ~ 14 cents a day...

I got through quite a few renders in my life with machines that the Ivy i5 smokes so hard it's not even funny - finishing my Master's this year with a 3yo 1st gen 17" i7 laptop and an 4.5yo 15.6" C2D 2.2GHz, driving an external dirth cheap 3 yo Dell 22" 1080p when home...trying to say i5 is more than "workable" if you are not making money out of your little 3DS venture.

Edited May 30, 2012 by dtolios

[iceboydarkb]

thanks.

 

its so hard to decide what to buy.there is so much on the market. its crazy. even when you decide which processor you still have to choose a motherboard. and now imagine that you have 5 similar motherboards . i know that i am not computer expert so i will not do any overclocking.

[Sketchrender]

Are you using Mari for viz work?

[iceboydarkb]

i will buy it. yes i will use it. i also plan to do some creature work,car renders and fantasy scifi locations. for this i need mari.

 

mari's triplanar projection is groundbreaking. in 5 minutes you can get the first color pass on the whole building. then you bake it down and start with the second layer where you add imperfections.

[iceboydarkb]

ohh i forgot that i also need a midi tower. what do i need to look when buying a tower? does it need a big opening on the side ?

what are good midi towers for a normal price?

[Dimitris Tolios]

In this price range hard to be picky. In general terms, the larger the merrier as far as air-flow etc. Many cases ~$50 do have side fans or openings for side fans - not all of them, and not all of them include a fan tho.

Most cheap cases include 1 exhaust 120-140mm fan behind and above the I/O panel, and some of them one intake in the lower front. Give us a list of available (within budget) options if you want, or fish for cheap case reviews and find key qualities etc on the comments for you to match in something available to you.

[RyderSK]

Dtolios gave you great advice. I would follow it.

 

Well honestly, MARI was built for bit more powerful computers and if you can shell 1400euros for Mary, you shouldn't cheap out on 800 euros computer. If you need to save, then saving on mATX board as advised by Dtolios is good advice, can save you up to 50 euros right there. 16GB ram, not 8, rams are on their historical price minimum, you can get 2x8GB modules for 100 euros, that's for free. You can later add other two additional modules, and have 32GB ram in 4 dimm slots only.

 

A single job will pay for your computer. Why save on it. It might be fine for most work, but there will come THAT one project, where it will be insufficient and you will wish you bought a little better one from beginning. Save a little bit more and buy better computer. i7, 16GB and GTX580, you will definitely need it if you seriously plan to use MARI.

[Dimitris Tolios]

Dtolios gave you great advice. I would follow it.

 

Well honestly, MARI was built for bit more powerful computers and if you can shell 1400euros for Mary, you shouldn't cheap out on 800 euros computer. If you need to save, then saving on mATX board as advised by Dtolios is good advice, can save you up to 50 euros right there. 16GB ram, not 8, rams are on their historical price minimum, you can get 2x8GB modules for 100 euros, that's for free. You can later add other two additional modules, and have 32GB ram in 4 dimm slots only.

 

A single job will pay for your computer. Why save on it. It might be fine for most work, but there will come THAT one project, where it will be insufficient and you will wish you bought a little better one from beginning. Save a little bit more and buy better computer. i7, 16GB and GTX580, you will definitely need it if you seriously plan to use MARI.

 

Tbh I was completely unfamiliar with MARI - the only products of "Thefoundry" I was familiar with were the D-SLR video correction and compositing plugins...:o

 

Apparently (after I've read Juraj msg I've checked it out) MARI requires powerful (nvidia) GPUs for you to work with...they don't even mention anything smaller than a GTX 480 or 580, but they do mention a few Quadros that I know for sure the 560Ti blows away (it's a strong 40-50%+ faster than the Quadro 4000 i think - 580 can be as much as 300% faster!!) -

 

Is it boiling down to just VRam after one point? I guess the 560Ti 2GB would be more than passable if the Q4000 is, unless there is some short of software lock that excludes it (ala Adobe CUDA accelerated appz - those "compatibility" lists can be easily corrected manually in Adobe's case).

 

If you do plan on investing for a 3DS / Mari / PS licenses - unless you can get them dirt cheap as a student through some channel - it really doesn't make sense cutting down your budget that much - at least not counting "peanuts" for the i5 vs the i7 etc.

 

Unless Mari really requires more than 2GB of VRam + more horsepower, I would not thing about the 580 - when only the 3GB version would make sense...I would tend to think that the GTX 670 2GB is the best value for money right now for a hi-end GPU that doesn't need to be >2GB buffer - similar performance with the 580 in updated for CUDA computation appz, way faster in gaming etc, much-much quieter and easier on the PSU.

Still it's some $/€400 which is 50% of your budget for the card alone!

 

The 2x8GB ram is a no-brainer - it adds 10-20% more than 4x4GB kits usually (getting worse with faster versions but not too bad for 1600-1866, and yes, RAM is dirt cheap these days - I would bet that they will come up with some "physical disaster" excuse sooner or later to bump prices up!) but leaves you space to double your memory without retiring your old dimms (saves money in the long run, unless you know that you won't need it).

Edited June 1, 2012 by dtolios

[iceboydarkb]

thanks. i dont have mari yet. would like to buy a computer where i can work normal with with industry standard software. 3dsmax,vray,photoshop,GIMP,.... Mari is only for texturing and its very expensive. but i would not use it the first month. but i would like ot have a computer that will work with Mari.

 

Mari was created for hollywood blockbuster movies and commercials. so it needs to support Avatar models and textures. the reason the official supported graphic cards are so expensive is because they need to work with the blacksmith assests. i think it its a detailed model with 200 4k textures. so you can paint Transformers models if you have the right card. but of course i would not texture this kind of models. so a gtx560 is good enough

http://www.thefoundry.co.uk/products/mari/training/

Edited June 1, 2012 by iceboydarkb

[iceboydarkb]

how should i buy RAM. 2 x 8 GB that is sold as a pack. or should i buy 2 seperate 8 GB RAM ? its the same right?

[Dimitris Tolios]

how should i buy RAM. 2 x 8 GB that is sold as a pack. or should i buy 2 seperate 8 GB RAM ? its the same right?

Companies try to sell "kits" of "matched" RAM sticks as according to them it helps with Dual/Tripple/Quad channel etc...

 

I don't believe that by not doing so you have worse chances on getting it to work just as right or fast. Just make sure that you are using the same stick model/version/manufacturer to be sure everything will work correctly and limit the chances of a conflict etc. Things can always go wrong and your Ram might not work correctly or not work at all (I preffer the latter, as the former might lead to corrupted data in storage drives before you know it.

 

I think most of the times kits tend to be slight cheaper than individual dimms. - I might be wrong or it might be a special offer you are after etc...just make sure that you buy sticks from the same batch if you buy them individually.

[iceboydarkb]

thanks

 

i noticed that its cheaper to buy 4x4GB RAM then 2x8GB. but everyone told me that 2x8 GB will be faster.

[Dimitris Tolios]

thanks

 

i noticed that its cheaper to buy 4x4GB RAM then 2x8GB. but everyone told me that 2x8 GB will be faster.

 

A modern system with such specs is so fast, that even if there is a performance boost from such a variation, it is nearly impossible to be noticed by the user...you might see it with a benchmarking suite but since it is a fraction of an already "superhuman" fast calculator, it is negligible. It's like claiming you can "see" and "feel" that an airline jet is going with 402km/h instead of 400km/h. The difference between occupying 2 or 4 banks is almost negligible in my opinion since Athlon 64 s939 when the memory controller moved in the CPU. Then, just as now, the question for occupying all 4 banks was "do I need double the RAM" - a tangible NEED that could be the 1 operator in a Boolean operation: you either get more RAM and you work on complex stuff, or you don't work on complex stuff. Not an intangible number to satisfy benchmarking junkies.

 

The same goes for the 1333 vs 1600 vs 1866 Ram: 1333 is already fast, but here we are talking 1866 being in theory a raw 40% faster, so you might "feel" some difference (perhaps if the experience with a similar system running 1333 is right before/after) in certain memory intensive apps. That 40% theoretical advantage in memory bandwidth might translate to an overall increase in speed in the region of med-to-high single % digits.

 

When working, the only "upgrade" that might wow you is a fast SSD or a really faster HDD/Hybrid SSD that will make your system more responsive in opening apps etc - Juraj might say that it helps with fetching textures for mat. previews etc - but it won't make it actually faster in VRay rendering which is heavily CPU biased (like most apps). Again the wow factor is because of the seemingly instant access SSDs bring to the table, and that it's not measured in single % digits but some times is 10fold faster in real life and more than that in certain operations, but again in the long run it is sensible in certain areas: mainly boot-up/down times, launching apps and fetching textures/loading plugins (and maps in your fav game).

Edited June 2, 2012 by dtolios

[iceboydarkb]

what do you think? this is a lot over 800€.

 

-Core™ i7 processor i7-3770 Ivy Bridge or Core™ i5 processor i5-3550 Ivy Bridge 315€/209€

-Asus P8Z77-V LX 131€

-WD 1TB SATA 6Gb/s (WD1002FAEX) 118€

-Corsair 700W GS 93€

-2 x Kingston ValueRAM DDR3 8 GB 92€

-Asus GTX560 Ti 2GB 273€

-Samsung SH-222BB DVD-RW , SATA black 18€

-tower (i have no idea)

 

Edited June 5, 2012 by iceboydarkb

[iceboydarkb]

today trying something different . what do you think?

 

-Core™ i5 processor i5-3550 Ivy Bridge

-Asus P8Z77-V LX

-Samsung SH-222BB DVD-RW , SATA black

-Cooler Master CM-690 II (RC-692A-KKN5)

-Cooler Master Hyper TX3

-WD 1TB SATA 6Gb/s (WD1002FAEX)

-Kingston DDR3 1333MHz 8GB (KVR1333D3N9K2/8G)

-Asus GTX560 Ti 2GB

-Corsair 650W (CMPSU-650TXV2EU)

Edited June 5, 2012 by iceboydarkb

[Dimitris Tolios]

The tower is one of the best for the price - if not the best IMHO.

 

The CPU cooler is not that good - don't get me wrong, it's better than the stock cooler and it is a respectable upgrade for the money, but since you don't plan on overclocking is not that necessery. If you do plan on overclocking or you really want good bang for your buck (euro) go get a Cooler master Hyper 212 Evo or something like that - same design principles with the TX3, but 120mm. Silent, better cooling performance, compatible with all sockets out there (TX3 is not for 2011, not a biggy). $15 or so (over the TX3) is not a big difference and it worth's it: the 212 is not the best air cooler in any way, but it is by far one of the best out there for temp drop per money spent.

 

I would personally stick with the stock though if I wasn't overclocking, and I would spent the difference to get a 1600 DDR3 kit instead of a 1333. I also see you stay @ 8GB or Ram. Not that bad, but keep it in mind that upgrading will probably hit a ceiling @ 16GB. Again, not something bad - few people actually use more than 8GB regularly. I personally have systems with 12GB of ram, but since I use 32bit apps quite a bit, I tend not to utilize most of it.

 

Rest are cookie cutter choices - should be a solid build (btw, I like lightscribe disks for stuff I hand to clients / professors etc).

Edited June 5, 2012 by dtolios

[iceboydarkb]

so only a new cooler if i am overclocking? yes i will not do any overclocking. maybe for the money that i would spend on the cooler i could buy an i7.

 

-Core™ i7 processor i7-3770 Ivy Bridge

-Asus P8Z77-V LX

-Samsung SH-222BB DVD-RW , SATA black

-Cooler Master CM-690 II (RC-692A-KKN5)

-WD 1TB SATA 6Gb/s (WD1002FAEX)

-(CMP8GX3M2B1333C9)

-Asus GTX560 Ti 2GB

-Corsair 650W (CMPSU-650TXV2EU)

[Dimitris Tolios]

so only a new cooler if i am overclocking? yes i will not do any overclocking. maybe for the money that i would spend on the cooler i could buy an i7.

 

-Core™ i7 processor i7-3770 Ivy Bridge

-Asus P8Z77-V LX

-Samsung SH-222BB DVD-RW , SATA black

-Cooler Master CM-690 II (RC-692A-KKN5)

-WD 1TB SATA 6Gb/s (WD1002FAEX)

-(CMP8GX3M2B1333C9)

-Asus GTX560 Ti 2GB

-Corsair 650W (CMPSU-650TXV2EU)

 

If you can do the i7 within your budget, definitely do.

The cooler is an "upgrade", not a requirement a all retail (boxed) i5/i7s you are looking at come with a heat-sink in the box. It is not great, but it can do the job while being barely audible 24/7/365 @ stock speeds.

 

Later on you can upgrade to a Hyper 212 or w/e your budget might allow to spoil yourself and have your CPU running in (much) lower temps, but of course you won't need that from day one, nor you will harm your system if you NEVER get one. Its like running premium gasoline in your car that doesn't require it (only very high compression / direct injection / modern turbos have to have it): It might be a tab better, most usually it adds nothing when you don't have to have it, but the placebo effect is too strong to convince ppl otherwise

[iceboydarkb]

i rather have an i7 proccesor then 16GB ram . i can stil upgrade. i already went over my budget. from 800 to 1000€.

 

so i guess i will buy this

 

-Core™ i7 processor i7-3770 Ivy Bridge

-Asus P8Z77-V LX

-Samsung SH-222BB DVD-RW , SATA black

-Cooler Master CM-690 II (RC-692A-KKN5)

-WD 1TB SATA 6Gb/s (WD1002FAEX)

-KVR1333D3N9K2/8G

-Asus GTX560 Ti 2GB

-Corsair 650W (CMPSU-650TXV2EU)

 

is 650W enough if i would add another disc and a more powerfull graphic card?

Edited June 7, 2012 by iceboydarkb

[Dimitris Tolios]

i rather have an i7 proccesor then 16GB ram . i can stil upgrade. i already went over my budget. from 800 to 1000€.

 

so i guess i will buy this

 

-Core™ i7 processor i7-3770 Ivy Bridge

-Asus P8Z77-V LX

-Samsung SH-222BB DVD-RW , SATA black

-Cooler Master CM-690 II (RC-692A-KKN5)

-WD 1TB SATA 6Gb/s (WD1002FAEX)

-KVR1333D3N9K2/8G

-Asus GTX560 Ti 2GB

-Corsair 650W (CMPSU-650TXV2EU)

 

is 650W enough if i would add another disc and a more powerfull graphic card?

 

Your system will be drawing around 300-330W with a 560Ti, a 7200rpm HDD, 3-4 120mm fans and the 3770K.

Upgrade to a GTX 580 and you will be around 410-420W. 560Ti SLI will be @ 460W.

Overclock the CPU and you will be seeing around 90W ontop of that (for max O/C at around 1.3-1.325V and 4.6-4.8GHz, depending on the CPU u got, yes the 77W CPU more than doubles its heat dissipation and power demand when o/ced).

 

Those are out of memory. Use http://extreme.outervision.com/PSUEngine or something like that to get into details, though it might be +/- 5~10%.

What I am trying to say is that you have more than enough room to play with. HDDs and SSDs are pretty light in power requirements, you might add half a dozen without any problems.

 

If you keep your PSU running @ 50-70% of its rated capacity you are good - at least for quality units.

Bad quality PSUs will most likely fail in a short time if stressed @ >50% for a prolonged time, thus we keep recommending expensive PSUs for machines that have a lot of upgrading potential. A build like yours by Dell would most likely have a 450-500W PSU - at least that was the case for low-end i7-2600K systems with 1GB GPUs.