New rig some doubts please read

[pablo scapi]

Hello:

 

I'm about to mount a new workstation, i have use as reference the lists of andrew on amazon, but have some doubts that i wanted to ask you.

 

My main us is autocad, 3dMAX, Vray, Photoshop, After effects, lightroom.

I'm 3d guy but also an enthusiast photographer.

 

MB: Asus Sabertooth X79

CPU: Intel Core I7-3930K 3.2Ghz Box Socket 2011

HDD: Crucial M4 256GB SSD SATA3 (system)

RAM: G.Skill Ripgaws 1600 pc3 4x8GB (32 GB)

VGA: ATI Firepro V5900 or Gforce GTX 670

HDD: WD Caviar Black 2TB SATA3 64MB (Data)

PSU: Cooler Master Silent Pro Gold 1200W

BOX: Antec P193 V3

Cool: Corsair Cooling Hydro Series H100

Monitor: Dell 2410 or 2412m

 

VGA: I have always used gaming cards, i want to try a firepro to see if i get better performance especially in 3d max display, but i have read that for adobe soft, a CUDA based card is better. Also i want to be able to use Vray RT at least for preview purposes, not final renders.

I saw Andrew's list for CUDA rendering, and he adds two Gforce cards to an firepro card for display.

I wonder how such a mix would work.

For instance in case i need Gforce for better PShop performance, could i instal the firepro for 3dmax display and use Gforce for PS and Vray RT, how would i tell the sofw what card to use? wouldn't it be a driver conflict or problems of other type?

Besides i would go for just one gforce and the firepro, so would that make a big diference or i'll be fine with just the ATI.

 

HDD: To RAID or not to RAID, that is the question here. Now i have a 1+0 Raid setup, with 4 750GB disks. I can use these same disks on my new machine and so avoid the data transfer (pain in the A.. if you ask me), but i also want to keep my old machine as second render node (i have also an older dual xeon that i don't know what to do with ) so i will need to put anothe HDD there. Or i could just use a new 2TB disk here, this option is more temting for me.

 

PSU: This is the best offer i could find with my dealer, is that a good choice?

BOX: The same here, will i be able to fit the cooling Hydro H100 radiator on the top 2 fans compartiment of the case?

 

Monitor: here the doubt is only for hte money, i know the 2410 is better in therms of color and gamut, so in the deep of me i know is what i need (especially for raw photo editting working on adobe rgb color space. But the difference in terms of money here is like 200 U$, so i wonder if the difference is that important. Now i have 2 monitor of worst quality than the 2412 i guess, and will be keeping ono to pair the new Dell.

 

I guess this is all.

Thank you for reading and any help will be very apreciated, i don't want to make some of the errors i did on my actual system, wich can't allways recon the 12GB of ram i have installed for isntance.

 

Cheers.

[Dimitris Tolios]

VGA: CUDA enabled renderers (in theory) recognize all CUDA enabled GPUs and utilize them. You don’t have to have your displays hooked to them or you cards might not be even configured as a GPU, but as a processing card (as some nVidia Teslas are, having no display port for output).

 

If I am not wrong, Andrew’s logic behind pairing the V5900 with the GTX 580s was to get the superior high-poly viewport acceleration the FireGL card has (in some programs), with the raw computational power you can get out of the GTX cards. Also, in GPU rendering with programs like VRay RT/GPU, iRay etc, the VRam is a major bottleneck in the workflow, so using a dedicated display/viewport accelerator card (of any brand) actually frees that little bit of Ram used up for display purposes should you use the same card as your main display GPU and rendering processor, leaving you that little bit more room for geometry and textures. This of course is relative to the number of monitors and the programs you have running at the same time, but when there are cases a model doesn’t fit for a few hundred MB, it could make a difference.

 

With the current market being reshaped with the new releases from nVidia though, my choice – as I’ve written before in this forum – would be opting for a GTX 670 4GB. It has a massive buffer for RT/GPU and similar renderers, not the best but more than decent speed for viewport and rendering acceleration in unbiased GPU engines and ofc the highest compatibility, supporting both OpenCL and CUDA languages. Price-wise is as expensive the GTX 580 3GB was a few months ago, while it consumes less power and runs much more silent and cooler.

Monitor: depends if you really want Adobe RGB or sRGB gamut. The 2410 is 96% Adobe and 100% sRGB, the 2412m is a cheaper IPS, with smaller gamut and lacks HDMI port - though I would not choose the HDMI over the display port and/or DVI-D that both monitors have. Price is different, but the displays are different too, with the 2410 catering a more demanding market, and the 2412m being simply an affordable yet respectable IPS. If you are really picky and want to treat yourself, a good IPS like the 2410 would make a difference, as long as you treat it back: you need a decent hardware calibrating package to tune your display every now and then. It makes a bigger difference than the panel specification themselves. If you are OK with the “cheaper” monitors you have now, the 2412 will be an upgrade anyways.

 

Case: I don’t really like the P193, as I cannot justify what it offers over the much cheaper and cleaner looking P280 for example. It must be more sturdy with that interior separator, but at the same time it is bigger and heavier while it offers the same HDD slots, less room for the MB (7 expansion slots vs. 8+1 in the P280) etc.

 

It is also an older case, with the HDDs being in cages parallel to the case = you cannot extract / add drives without disconnecting all of the drives in the cage and sliding the cage out (or you can but it is complicated), it lacks the cable management openings of the 280 and ofc the interior is not total black…

Yes, it offers that big side intake fan, but so do other choices with less money and better thought layout. I would personally choose the P280 or the Corsair 550D. The latter offers side door fan mounts for you to add if you really want, and both accept the H100 just fine.

 

HDD: I don’t know if I would like my sensitive data that exist only on a 0+1 array to be transferred to another controller/motherboard without prior backup to one or more external drives. Might ruin the array and all your data. Backing them up in an external device, even USB 3.0 or eSata will be painful if your disks contain a lot of stuff, so the whole logic behind you saving time is probably out of the question, but that’s my way of thinking. “Better safe than sorry”.

The SSD will be faster that the above array anyways, but it is definitely not a must-have.

 

 

PSU: good unit but a bit overkill...I would go with a 800-850W one, or a 900/1000W in case I would like to leave room for an extra GPU and/or overclocking both GPUs and the CPU. With no O/C i believe a 700W or so will be enough to feed your system with ease.

[pablo scapi]

Hello Dimitri, thank you for your input.

 

Some of the parts that I listed where the ones that I could get from that seller closer of what I was looking for, but now I'm splitting my purchase in three sellers, so I can get the pieces that I want and even some better prices in some of them.

 

MB: Asus Sabertooth X79

CPU: Intel Core I7-3930K 3.2Ghz Box Socket 2011

HDD: Crucial M4 256GB SSD SATA3 (system)

RAM: G.Skill Ripgaws 1600 pc3 4x8GB (32 GB)

HDD: WD Caviar Black 2TB SATA3 64MB (Data)

VGA: Gforce GTX 680 4GB

PSU: Cooler Master Silent Pro Gold 1000W

BOX: Antec P280

Cool: Noctua NH-D14

Monitor: Dell U2711

Mouse: Logitech G500

Win 7 pro 64bit

 

VGA: I wanted so much to try the pro line of firepro, but the researches and your input finally make me decide to go for GTX, (I think for hte moment) i don't especially need the rendering functions, but i prefer to have them, also for the adobe softwares the fhysix capacity etc.

Also being 3dmax based on directX, i think the GTX cuda capable will be better option even for viewport?

Following your advide i went after a GTX670 4GB, and the where i found it the price was 530€ compared to the 590€ of the GTX680 i guess it's preferable the last one. (both are ZOTAC)

Although I'm still doubting when I think that for that price I could get the firepro v7900.

 

Also, I could have one V5900 and a second GTX560 for the same price :/

 

It's so hard try to decide this things without the possibilitie of testing performances !!!

 

I could find the P280, a 1000w PSU, about the cooling, I was under the impression that the H100 would be more effective and silent than air options, but after some reviews I think it's pretty noisy and equal effective, plus the noctua is cheaper. Although I know you have advise the H100 in the past.

 

I need also a new mouse and I think this one could be, I have BIG hands, any recomendation?

 

On the monitor I decided I will treat myself with a big good 27"

 

To summ it up, my main doubt is still the Grafic Card always the same question over and over again.

Isn't out there a real world benchmark on the 3d max viewport performance for all these cards?

 

Have a nice day all.

Pablo

[Dimitris Tolios]

Pablo,

I am in the process of building a rig pretty close to yours, for purposes pretty close to yours (plus gaming, I know, childish ). Thus I understand how hard it is to justify A over B some times...

 

I was pretty much set to go for a 3770K for example, till the price jumped $50-60 here in the states and brought the 2011 in the scene again, as 3930K dropped for the same amount...at least here in the US of A...

 

I am from Greece (being in the US for just 3 years, so I know how frustrating pricing can be in EU)

 

 

VGA: I know, it is hard to find reliable information and/or comparisons for real viewport performance benefits in GPUs using 3D creation programs...the only "recent" head to head I've seen is comparing a V7900 FirePro vs. a Quadro 4000 in CATIA, in which case the AMD card simply blows nvidia away...cards are of the same value today, around $690+VAT (lower than 10%, snif), but this doesn't tell the whole story...

 

AMD cards have been topping OpenGL and OpenCL computational tasks for some time now $/$ vs. nVidia cards, but OpenCL compatibility suffers with AMD drivers more often than not, so all the raw power these cards produce - which now feature thousands of shading processing units in each camp - is not funneled in tasks correctly, at least not all the times. Newer drivers for both nVidia and AMD might improve performance in one field, and ruin compatibility with something else.

 

This is a comparison review with all Pro cards available in 2011...

http://www.cgchannel.com/2011/10/review-professional-gpus-nvidia-vs-amd-2011/

the V5900 seems to be doing a pretty good job IMHO. In pure OpenGL viewports like Maya/Softimage/, AMD cards are holding very good, topping even the Quadro 6000 (which is a 580 GTX with lotsa ram hardware-wise). Autodesk products with their different APIs seem to favor nVidia. Unfortunately I don't know the difference in quality and speed should you opt for OpenGL 3DS viewports instead of the tested "nitrous" mode. At any rate, the V5900 does more than 15 fps which is pretty good to work with, but with the greatest raw potential of a gaming card, I don't know if one should go for even a mid-range FirePro instead of a top of the line gaming card from either company.

 

I have never encountered issues with AMD/ATI drivers in 3DS personally - some ppl claim otherwise...I've been "cursed" to work personal stuff on laptops lately, so I have head to head comparisons of mid-range 128bit Radeon Ms vs. nVidia Ms, and I can definitely say that both OpenGL and D3D modes in 3DS work better with my Radeon 58xxM vs. any of the nVidia GT mobile cards (tried 330 to 540 GTs, found in most MBPs, a couple of all-in-one desktops like Dell Inspiron One and most mid-range gaming laptops that architecture students get for mobile workstations). For what is worth, Sketchup is also feeling much faster with my RadeonM vs. the mobile nVidias, and all the above personal observations are verified over and over as I work in teams, switching between workstations quite often during the day exchanging and editing models.

 

But if mobile cards produce "passable" results, and since my last personal desktop computer (Q6600 with GT 8800) was doing OK, I have no doubt that modern GPUs will be fine. Where I work, we have 2-3yo Dual Xeon systems with pathetic Quadros (1700-2000) and we also do fine with anything but some insane Revit models (where I doubt the GPU is the only bottleneck), so worry not: I don't know what kind of workload you plan on having, but I tend to believe that any of the cards mentioned will do fine.

 

If you don't plan on using GPU rendering as a routine, and you won't game using both your monitors etc, I doubt that the 670 4GB will utilize the extra 2GB of VRam...you might save some money opting for a 2GB card without any regrets.

 

Cooler: I like the H100 for it's cooling capacity @ med speeds, the cleaner/easier installation that does not hang 1kg of a cooler from the socket, and the nearly zero possibilities for it to conflict with the RAM heat sinks.

 

Yes, it does not really top the performance of the ND-14 or the slightly better Thermalright Silver Arrow (which would be my choice as I've used 3x thermalright products in the past and have been more than happy - just like my handpicked S/N Q6600 which was clocking pretty good under the massive weight of a TR cooler)...Both air coolers cost about the same, so I would go for the Arrow and get a couple of deg. lower temps.

RAM: GSkill is a good choice, tho depending on your cooler choice, you might need to check on heat sink clearance with the Rip-jaws. I believe thare are "ares" modules, same timings, smaller heat sinks that would have no issue. Definitely not as bad issues as corsair vengeance or some kingston hyper-x sticks have with their massive HS (which almost guaranteed has little to no difference).

 

Mouse: I have the G700 and I could not be happier. Battery life sucks, but will get you though a couple of days wireless @ max settings when the battery is young. Unfortunately the cell wears out fast being recharged and nearly drained every 1-2 days, despite it being a high-quality Eneloop NiMH.

But the G700 is great otherwise. Better sculpted shape, less cheesy looks than the G500's "bullet-pierced" paint-job and ofc perfect "wired" mode, which you will probably use anyways. Tracking is amazing, and personally i love the feel of all the buttons. The mouse is your main input device and does really needs your attention. For a 185cm guy I have small hands, but the mouse feels great.

 

Dell 2711: Probably the best choice today. The HP ZR2740w is a comparable product, slightly cheaper and with slightly lower response times that some gaming oriented buyers prefer over the Dell. All quality 27" 1440p monitors use the same LG IPS panel.

 

Edit:

Mobo: I don't know if you plan to overclock your 3930K...if you do, maybe there is some benefit going Sabertooth vs. the P9X79 series. Supposingly the Sabertooth has better capacitors / Voltage regulation for the CPU, but under stock speeds the difference is irrelevant. Overclocked CPUs usually drain 2x the Wattage, so differences are exaggerated.

 

Otherwise I prefer the slot layout on the P8X79 Pro (which also has bluetooth for those who care), and the regular P8X79 has identical slot layout with the Saber...

 

For overclocking, without breaking the bank (well, we are past $/€ 300 so it is kinda broken anyways in any case) and exc quality Vcore control, is the Asus ROG Formula 4 X79...best slot layout, for anybody thinking more than 2x SLI (woot), the best sound card option and lotsa geek perks. It is also pretier in my eyes (hate the brown military look) Downside? Other than price being higher even in comparison to the sabertooth, the Formula 4 has 4x dimm slots vs. 8 for the others. If you think you will ever need more than 32GB of Ram, you will need to retire your 4x8GB sticks, but lets be reasonable!

 

You have also to consider that the primary reason for whining vs. X79 mobos is RAM compatibility: all boards are picky with 4x sticks, and most get terrible with 8x...so beware!

 

ROGs are the kings of s2011 overclocking atm, but on air you will be ok with any of the above choices. 5GHz clocks need to be watercooled with custom loops.

 

Sorry for the walls of text

Edited July 7, 2012 by dtolios

[pablo scapi]

Hi again:

 

Thank you for the amount of time you have invested in your answers, with people like you it's a pleasure to ask for help here.

 

I have seen before that benchmark on the video cards, the problem is the benchamrks allways confront cards on the same line, i mean ther is no comparison betwwen the V5900 and a GTX 670 for instance.

I don't know the nitrous viewport performance since i use Max 2011, but seems to be the better choice for 2012.

With the price of the Radeon V5900 a little cheaper than the GTX 670 2 GB (at least here) i think i will go with my initial thought and buy this one.

I always wanted to feel the behaviour of a pro card, and this is the first time i am going to spend that a mount of money in one so it's now or never i guess.

Besides i think that IF in the future i need to use GPU render, i can always trow in there a couple of GTX just for that purpose and keep my v5900 for display anyway.

 

On the mobo, I swap to the P9X79 PRO following your advise. Besides the sabertooh has 2 fans on the board, what makes it more propense to fail I guess. I may OC to amoderate extend if I can, because my actual i7920 wich is a grat OCer I could never achieve a stable result, always BSOD in my workflow.

 

About the RAM compatibility, this is somethig that makes me nervous, it's the actual problem on my system, and also the main reason why I prefer a 8 dimm slot board, to achieve 32GB without using all the available dimms, I thaought not using all available dimms was a safer way to assume it will recognize all mamory.

Anyway, i checked the G Skilly web for the memory i choose and all these asus boards are suposed to be compatible.

http://www.gskill.com/products.php?index=431

 

The ROG formula IV looks nice, but o prefer to have 8 dimms than an extra PCI-e. even thoug i may never use 64 Gb of RAM (althoug one never knows )

 

On the mouse, I never liked wireless mouses, the cord in not a problem for me, althought the shape of the G700 looks sweet!

 

 

About Monitor, I cuurently have a min screen of 22" with one of 19" at side, both are the same high. Question is, with the 27 display now being obiusly biger and also higher, won't I have problems to pair one or both these monitors?

will this be even practical? or will the pointer jump in heigh when passing between screens?

 

Have a nice day.

Pablo

[Dimitris Tolios]

Agreed on benchmarks, rarely give actual "feel" of the product, especially for viewport acceleration where they give you just an fps #: if it is above 10-15 fps, you say it is fine, but results vary so greatly with some cards/driver combinations clipping stuff, flickering etc ontop of slowing down, so the real picture is actually much more complicated.

 

Sabretooth: it is actually a good board, and fans are almost silent + make it run a bit cooler than other X79 boards, but active cooling is definitely not a must,as many high-end X79 motherboards (other than the sabertooth and the ROG rampage from asus) do without.

 

I don't know if the P9X79 Pro is a "better" board - other than the slot layout i would expect them to be on-par, and maybe the Sabertooth has a slight edge with a 5 year warranty...you cannot go wrong either, and if you do it will be your sample, not the product in general.

 

4 vs 8 slots: 8 slots are sweet, no doubt. The "compatibility" is a X79 issue, not a % of slot occupation issue between X79 boards. Even the top-of-the-line Rampage 4 has issues with ram - sometimes with just 2/8 slots occupied. Ofc this is a posibility, not the norm, but as dissatisfied people often rush to rage their findings in user reviews etc, to problem is some times exaggerated.

 

The ROG Formula overall has better voltage regulation for both the CPU and RAM slots than the P9X79 and sabertooth, being a more extreme O/C oriented board. It probably has 4 slots to cut down on production cost (less of the "better" mosfets for RAM) but most likely to give less of internal competition for the top of the line ROG Rampage which has 8 slots (for a $80-100 premium).

 

O/C: The 3930K is a beast even if you don't do 5GHz which is impossible without a $250-300+ watercooling loop on it, so I would not bother with "extremities"...mid-range X79 boards from asus are pretty good for mild O/C any day.

 

Extended Monitors: In Win7 you can align your monitors to either the top or the bottom. Transition is easy to get used to. I regularly use my 17.3" 1600x900 laptop (on a raised fan base) with my 1080p external monitor and I don't have an issue. The secondary monitor (the laptop in this case) is shared between tool pallets and a webpage streaming music or video - nothing that needs to seamlessly match the resolution or the physical size of my main display when working. The occasions when I am working with more than one illustrator files or more than one CAD programs etc, involve some compromises, but nothing that "demands" you having 2x screens of the same size.

 

G700: it is my main laptop mouse (had a VX nano and I am not looking back, i don't care if it is big) and the nano-receiver is a big plus. In a desktop environment you can have it plugged in from day one and no need to worry about it.

 

Still the wireless mode is absolutely perfect. I do game a quite a bit (no, I am not an FPS pro, but I do know how to appreciate a good mouse) and I cannot tell the difference between wired and wireless response - neither does anybody that reviewed the G700 and most of the modern wireless mice. The transition from wireless to wired is also perfect, you just hot-plug it and it resumes duties in fractions of a second.

[pablo scapi]

I have finally ended the shopping, now have to wait for the items to arrive and hopefully next weekend I can assamble it.

 

Finally, an after all doubts I decided to go with the GTX 670 4gb, so one of your first advises after all. I ended up choosing this because of campitibility and GPU render possibilities.

 

Dimitrios, I just wanted to thank you again for the time you have spend helping me and others here. BTW my second name is Demetrio, and my last name is Skapinakis, i've never been in greece but obviusly my great-grandfather did I'm from Uruguay but currently living in Spain (for more than 10 years now) so I'm getting closer to the roots I guess.

 

Have a nice day.

Pablo

[Dimitris Tolios]

LoL, same (2nd) name...it's a matter of how the official puts it down I guess, Demetrio might be closer to the corect pronunciation (always gets butchered as I have it down here in the States, it should be "Deemeetrios" for them to nail it more often, but lets not start the how far away from the truth greek alphabet in english sounds...). You are getting closer to the "roots", I am almost as far away as possible - maybe Hawaii is a bit further away...

 

Keep us posted on 670 iRay/Vray performance, and I hope the rig will serve you well.

[pablo scapi]

Hi.

Just wanted to update the thread.

 

Finally yesterday i get all the parts at home.

Mounting the system was really fast and without problems, this case (Antec P280) is really great and has a good room in the back for convenient storage of the cables.

 

I did forgot to order the mechanical HDD, as i changed several times from one suplier to another in the end i forgot to include it on any , anyway i did ask for two 120 ssd OCZ V3, my idea is to use one for the OS and programs and the other one as scratch disk for PS, files that i am working at the moment for fast save, open, etc.

 

The instalation of win7 took almost 70 GB ??? i was shocked by this, then i read that the system allocates the same amount of ram installed for usage on the disk (that is 32gb) anyway i think is too much.

Right now i don't have any program yet apart from antivirus.

 

As i still have to order the HDD i started to think again on use RAID or not, it would be a RAID 1 for safety of the data. But as i am keeping my older machine also, and (hopefully) making regular backups, i wonder if this would be neccesary or i just forget about it and buy just a black caviar 2TB.

 

The dell 27" look amazingly BIG.

 

Cheers