I just left a multi-million dollar marketing agency. Ask me anything.

[Devin Johnston]

Greg there are really two types of Arch Viz companies, first are the large 3D houses like Neoscape and then there are the small offices of just a few people or the single freelancer. These small offices may have just as much talent as the big boys but are at a distance disadvantage when it comes to resources, manpower, and projects. Most of the people watching this thread fall into the small company/freelancer category and can't afford to spend the time and money creating a fancy website or a marketing piece as extensive as the examples Jeff gave. These companies have a distinctly different client base who's focus is almost always budget driven and that's why China/India are so attractive to them because they are very inexpensive. What I'm saying is the small firms marketing needs are very different than a large firms because the client's are different. Taking that into consideration do your 3 points still hold true?

[Tommy L]

Greg there are really two types of Arch Viz companies, first are the large 3D houses like Neoscape and then there are the small offices of just a few people or the single freelancer. These small offices may have just as much talent as the big boys but are at a distance disadvantage when it comes to resources, manpower, and projects. Most of the people watching this thread fall into the small company/freelancer category and can't afford to spend the time and money creating a fancy website or a marketing piece as extensive as the examples Jeff gave. These companies have a distinctly different client base who's focus is almost always budget driven and that's why China/India are so attractive to them because they are very inexpensive. What I'm saying is the small firms marketing needs are very different than a large firms because the client's are different. Taking that into consideration do your 3 points still hold true?

 

I think getting a website done is extremely cheap, but you need a strong body of work. The best websites are simple and the work carries them.

[gregjenkins]

Money, Money, Money. Did I mention money?

 

Seriously though, the 3 big ones for me are always money, time, and scope. Most new clients want the world for cheap and faster than a pizza delivery company.

 

Money, that's always going to be an issue so it's just part of this business really. You learn to negotiate and if they still don't want to work with you, then walk away. There is no reason to take a job for well under what you deserve.

 

Time, many clients don't understand about render time and it's impact. Yes, that billboard size image you want can be done but it takes time to render. Yes, moving that lamp is a 20 second fix. However, it's a 2 hour render time.

 

Scope, not fully understanding what they even want to see or be done. So, given an entire master plan community or skyscraper or what have you, they can't tell you where to begin. So you are left to pick and chose and model things that they decide on later to never show. That is a waste of your time and your budget. Scope loops back into time and money as well. Or they will try to give you a SketchUp model that their cousin's brother's nephew modeled and say, "But, we already have it modeled for you, just use that one."

 

 

Time and Money seem to be universal problem in the business world.

 

I find the scope issue interesting.

 

How do you think you can make people understand what you are doing for them before you start?

 

Have you tried putting in your proposal the exact details of the project, then when they ask for more say "Well this is what we agreed on, but if you want that done as well it will cost X amount."

 

I see where that could be a problem is they do not know where to begin.

 

I would offer them 2 initial renders and let them pick which one they like. No more than two.

 

If you give your clients too many options they will never make up their mind.

[gregjenkins]

Well tbh I don't really see the point of us doing those long schmick, slick, overproduced self big upping marketing videos. I think in general they and the one you posted are pretty awful and would turn away clients - however - maybe it would work in the US market ? I certainly don't think that would hold any kind of sway in the UK or Australia.

 

Im also not impressed with the examples you give as good tbh..they all look the same and that haririiririr site is bloody tedious. I see no *brand* or more importantly creative intent here beyond a gallery of nice photos? boring - i still dont get what they do different - is it bland contemporary architecture? If it looks like it then it is...maybe I'm missing the point.

 

http://www.haririandhariri.com/

http://www.aedas.com/

http://shl.dk/eng/

 

 

I do think websites are important if you want to delineate yourself from the hoardes and they give you a chance to present the kind of work you want to do rather than doing what the client thinks you can do. This gap can be hard to breach - the amount of people (that pay bills) that think we do just a few renders are in the majority (changing fast though)

 

There are so many bleak gallery type sites out there that just don't cut it as anything more than a folio site. I personally rarely go to specific studios websites unless Im directed there via vimeo / twitter / cg architect etc.

 

Word of mouth is perhaps to me the most important thing besides quality and niche of work. I think every job Iv ever had has been a personal referral from someone or a chat that led to more. In fact I started working at squint/opera UK after someone sent me a message on here years and years ago when I moved to London!

 

A lot of new work is also personal connections here - it doesnt always come down to price - I find its more about taking a lead, posing questions, being responsive, showing them the process and similar work and then trying to manipulate/mould it into something that you also find interesting or something you have wanted to try for a while than showing them an image and saying 'i can do ur render mate - no worries its c00L'

 

I see a lot of studios have vimeo and twitter now which I especially like as it delivers a feed of their best work / ideas straight to you and allows a modicum of networking. Not sure how that gets you extra work though as Im not sure developers and marketing managers and the ilk spend time trawling the internet for work?

 

Most difficult thing in my mind at the moment is convincing people to do unorthodox imagery / film. People are so used to the bland status quo of architectural visualization any departure from that norm is seen as 'weird' or 'radical' When in fact its not at all. Advertisments for chicken noodles are more radical.

 

Just positioning yourself in a different area than the typical arch vis studio would help. I hate the word 'arch vis' - it's a term invented by architecture studios in the late 90's to describe their in house 3D drones. It's an unhelpful toxic description that undermines what you can actually do.

 

 

I couldn't agree with you more, all of the things you said are spot.

 

The main reason i came here is because i have seen so many people in this field doing the same thing, and those three websites i posted were the best that i could find! (there is huge room for improvement).

 

In a field with a massive amount of competition who does the same thing, it really is about making yourself stand out.

 

The twitter/vimeo idea is awesome idea for getting your name out there and trust me there are heaps of developers and marketing managers searching the internet for your work.

 

If you really want to get some clients to go with same "weird" or "radical" jobs. I would target people who have an interest in that.

 

Make a video/website that speaks to that person than throw it out there and see who bites. Someone who wants the extraordinary, to stand out from the crowd.

 

It is much easier to find a radical person and pitch him your website then finding a conservative person and trying to shove your idea down their throat, they will just spit it out.

 

The word "studio" will definitely help you standout in your field, even make your e-mails studio@blank.com instead of info.

[gregjenkins]

I pretty much agree with Nic, the hardest part is convincing clients to step away from the same old, same old. This also holds true working in-house as well. It's taken years (yes years) to convince the bosses to stop recommending the traditional and horrendous one path walkthoughs. Now that we have them convinced its onto our clients.

 

Some of my best clients are those I have built a relationship with, I have proven that I do know what I am talking about and can deliver. My biggest difficulty personally is approaching new potential clients. Any tips on that would be most helpful.

 

jhv

 

 

1. If you want to convince clients to step away from the most traveled path, explain to them how doing so would benefit them.

 

Instead of saying the process will be 2 weeks faster. say We will finish two weeks before schedule so you can get this out to your clients/boss as soon as possible.

 

When convincing someone of something they want to know the benefits to them, always explain how it benefits THEM.

 

 

2. When approaching new clients (i assume you are talking about a in person/on the phone) the two most important things to remember are

 

1. Ask questions and listen to them

2. Show a genuine interest/enthusiasm in their business

 

You want them to be doing most of the talking because people feel good when they talk about themselves. Ask questions that open them up more and more to telling you what their deep down fears and frustrations are.

 

Once you have an idea on what their deep frustrations are show how your service will solve this problem and remove that frustration for them.

 

I like to keep it simple because at the end of the day business is just solving another person's problem, for a price hah.

 

 

Here is a book that is ace at explaining selling in any market.

 

http://www.amazon.com/People-Buy-You-Matters-Business/dp/0470599111

[gregjenkins]

Greg there are really two types of Arch Viz companies, first are the large 3D houses like Neoscape and then there are the small offices of just a few people or the single freelancer. These small offices may have just as much talent as the big boys but are at a distance disadvantage when it comes to resources, manpower, and projects. Most of the people watching this thread fall into the small company/freelancer category and can't afford to spend the time and money creating a fancy website or a marketing piece as extensive as the examples Jeff gave. These companies have a distinctly different client base who's focus is almost always budget driven and that's why China/India are so attractive to them because they are very inexpensive. What I'm saying is the small firms marketing needs are very different than a large firms because the client's are different. Taking that into consideration do your 3 points still hold true?

 

Yes. Most of these things can be done yourself on a budget.

 

A branding plan probably will be too expensive, but depending how far you want to go they are in reach.

 

1. For a website the two most important things are

 

-Your portfolio, displayed in high definition (this is up to you to retreive)

-Speak your customers language. The message on your website should talk to the buyer in your specific niche/market

 

These two account for 70% of your website effectiveness. The other 30% is design quality.

 

2. For the videos, you guys make renders all of the time. You are familiar with 3D animation, so all you have to do is put a recording over that and you will have your video. Additional videos can be in your portfolio of your previous renderings.

 

3. The social media/word of mouth can be done easily, i would recommend to get some consultation on how to set up an effective plan/strategy but once you have it laid out you just have to implement it.

 

A good example of unique social media strategy is the twitter/vimeo idea nicnic posted a page back.

 

I would definitely say all of this is in the scope of a freelancer even on the tightest budget.

[gregjenkins]

I think getting a website done is extremely cheap, but you need a strong body of work. The best websites are simple and the work carries them.

 

Make sure you have high definition pictures and videos of all of your work.

[gregjenkins]

What are some of the other problems you guys face when dealing with your clients?

[John Dollus]

I think asking the developers, marketing and design firms the same question about what problems they encounter when partnering with a visualization studio would yield some interesting information.

What have you discovered when navigating those forums/groups?

 

Oh, and i see 3 types of arch-viz vendors instead of the 2 suggested above - don't forget a huge number of moonlighters. People seem to use freelancer and moonlighter interchangeably but they are very different.

Edited July 27, 2012 by John Dollus

[gregjenkins]

I think asking the developers, marketing and design firms the same question about what problems they encounter when partnering with a visualization studio would yield some interesting information.

What have you discovered when navigating those forums/groups?

 

Oh, and i see 3 types of arch-viz vendors instead of the 2 suggested above - don't forget a huge number of moonlighters. People seem to use freelancer and moonlighter interchangeably but they are very different.

 

I like your way of thinking. I have not directly asked what their problems are when partnering with visualizers but here are some problems they harp on about.

 

Designers- Feeling undervalued and under appreciated, not seeing eye to eye with their customers, and outsourcing

 

Marketers- From my experience it was always difficult to get visualizers to try new things. A lot of comments i would get would be along the lines of, "I don't want any marketing wording on my website". To them it may sound like marketing, but the stuff works. I would say that is the biggest frustration for marketers.

 

Developers- I have not dealt with them much but i will look into that and get back to you.

 

What exactly is a moonlighter?

[Devin Johnston]

A moonlighter is someone who has a full time job and does rendering work on the side after hours.

[gregjenkins]

A moonlighter is someone who has a full time job and does rendering work on the side after hours.

 

Interesting. How many of you guys fit into this category?

[gregjenkins]

I am speaking with some other advertisers this weekend and i am going to come back to you guys with some valuable information i will collect form them.

[Jeff Mottle]

Interesting. How many of you guys fit into this category?

 

While I no longer work in production, at many times throughout my career I moonlit on evenings and weekends. Everyone I ever worked with at the time did too. In fact depending on the project some companies (the day job) would even let us use their computer hardware and software to do it.

[ihabkal]

You guys (Architects), for the most part, don’t get what effective advertising is.

 

I agree, 15 years ago in the days of 3d studio DOS I made a few renderings and toured both Architects and Advertising agencies in Lebanon, no one understood what benefit 3d could bring to their business. Now everyone wants 3d.

Also even now in many famous Architects websites, they have ugly renderings. I go door to door to Architects to give out fancy brochures, the secretary points to an ugly rendering on the wall and says we do that in house. they save $500 or $1000 (actually they don't save anything as their employees spend more time and money doing crap), and they do multi million $ projects, yet they have ugly renderigns they market with.

 

I read all the post and great ideas and great points everyone has valid points.

 

For me there are two issues, most of the work done in Architecture especially public work and in Lebanon and I think most countries is done unethically by government people who take tax money from the public, pay an Architecture firm 50 million dollars to do a building, then the architecture company hires people who are related to that politician to do the work, and designs the villa or palace of that politician for free.

My firm belief is that most Architecture in many countries is just a laundring scheme. A lot of money comes in and out of pockets. It is one of the most efficient and safest ways to get your tax dollars in politicians pockets.

 

my other issue is a point raised by another poster, is my competitors have 6 or 12 employees, a huge renderfarm while I do everything myself and have limited resources. How to convey to a potential customer that I have some attributes that these companies don't so that these clients choose me? sometimes when you try to talk about yourself some people think you are arrogant, yet I see people talking about themselves all the time. or is that a no no since the main goal of marketing is to focus on the clients needs?

Edited July 29, 2012 by ihabkal

[archsolutionsinc]

Alas, for the most part, Greg is absolutely right - and then some, as they don't seem to know what constitutes good service, either.

 

Let me tell you why: I was a corporate trainer in Customer Service (the face-to-face kind, not the horrific contemporary corporate versions) for a billion-dollar venture capital firm for many years prior to returning to Architecture. When I started this company, I found that most, if not all, Architects thought that being on time, with good design and plans, and on budget constituted good service.

 

This is certainly true, and part and parcel of any good service. BUT ... as Greg points out, most of them fail to provide the Client with a sense of being well-serviced for a simple reason: They don't ask the magic question, i.e., "What has to happen in order for you to feel that we've provided you with exceptional service?"

 

Architectural Arrogance requires that, much like a physician, that we know what's better for the Client than they do. While this is also largely true, this particular brand of arrogance seems to preclude asking for the CLIENTS actual definition of what constitutes 'Good Service' to him or her. It's quite simple -- if you don't ASK, you don't KNOW.

 

Does anyone remember that great survey Architectural Record published about 15 years ago? They interviewed both GCs and Architects about what was most important in working together. In other words, Architects were asked what they felt was the most important service they provided to Contractors, and GCs were asked what was most important in getting good service from Architects.

 

Number One on the Architects' list: Providing Good Design. Where did that fall on the GC's list? Seventh. Think about that.

 

Number One of the GC's list of what they needed from Architects? Good Communication.

 

So, if you don't ask, you don't know.

 

Listen to Greg ... we need to get outside of our well-designed little boxes and pay attention to Professionals in THEIR line of work. After all, we expect our Clients to listen to us ... why shouldn't we be expected to listen to other Professionals when they speak?

 

Just my 2¢' worth.

Edited July 30, 2012 by archsolutionsinc

[gregjenkins]

While I no longer work in production, at many times throughout my career I moonlit on evenings and weekends. Everyone I ever worked with at the time did too. In fact depending on the project some companies (the day job) would even let us use their computer hardware and software to do it.

 

That really shows commitment and love for your craft.

 

Is moonlighting usually a transitional period between working with a company and working on your own, or is it something that many people do long term?

[Devin Johnston]

http://www.yourdictionary.com/moonlighting

[Jeff Mottle]

That really shows commitment and love for your craft.

yeah, I would say I know VERY few people in this industry who look at visualization as only a paycheck and a 9-5 job. Most are pretty committed to the craft.

 

Is moonlighting usually a transitional period between working with a company and working on your own, or is it something that many people do long term?

For some, but many just do it because the opportunity arises and it's extra money. There are also some jobs that are too small or undesirable for the day job studio or company to be interested in so someone takes it as a side job. Once you get a few clients they usually keep coming back too. This is when people start thinking they will make a go of it on their own. Some make it, but most end up going back to a full time job as it's pretty tough to make it on your own as a freelancer in this field unless you have a pretty good business sense, coupled with being a good artist. The recession wiped out many of these people. Some moved to entirely new industries, other went back to architecture, and visualization companies. Most only do a few jobs a year just to supplement their income.

[gregjenkins]

I agree, 15 years ago in the days of 3d studio DOS I made a few renderings and toured both Architects and Advertising agencies in Lebanon, no one understood what benefit 3d could bring to their business. Now everyone wants 3d.

Also even now in many famous Architects websites, they have ugly renderings. I go door to door to Architects to give out fancy brochures, the secretary points to an ugly rendering on the wall and says we do that in house. they save $500 or $1000 (actually they don't save anything as their employees spend more time and money doing crap), and they do multi million $ projects, yet they have ugly renderigns they market with.

 

I read all the post and great ideas and great points everyone has valid points.

 

For me there are two issues, most of the work done in Architecture especially public work and in Lebanon and I think most countries is done unethically by government people who take tax money from the public, pay an Architecture firm 50 million dollars to do a building, then the architecture company hires people who are related to that politician to do the work, and designs the villa or palace of that politician for free.

My firm belief is that most Architecture in many countries is just a laundring scheme. A lot of money comes in and out of pockets. It is one of the most efficient and safest ways to get your tax dollars in politicians pockets.

 

my other issue is a point raised by another poster, is my competitors have 6 or 12 employees, a huge renderfarm while I do everything myself and have limited resources. How to convey to a potential customer that I have some attributes that these companies don't so that these clients choose me? sometimes when you try to talk about yourself some people think you are arrogant, yet I see people talking about themselves all the time. or is that a no no since the main goal of marketing is to focus on the clients needs?

 

The 3-D rendering is a great example.

 

Huge firms often market with crap material. They are usually the ones who are the furthest behind. They may look like they are currently getting a lot of business but what they don't realize is that unless they adapt to technology, other companies are going to pass them up easily. Some of the most monkey brained people i have dealt with have been President's of huge firms. They do not want to change anything.

 

That second point you made about Lebanon is very interesting. Having that kind of corruption can totally flip an industry upside down where advertising becomes less and less important. Having a "Connection" and kissing the right shoes will get you where you want to go.

 

I am not sure how often this happens in other countries, maybe someone else on this forum could answer that question for you. If that becomes a huge problem for you (you are losing a ton of business each month) i would recommend to relocate to a country without that problem. Only if it becomes a huge problem.

 

 

Regarding your last issue

 

This is all perspective.

 

There are a ton of people who do not want to deal with a big firm for many reasons. Everything is bland and communicated with corporate talk. The level of service is lower, things cannot be personalized, there is no personal connection, you get what everyone else gets, etc.

 

What you should do is market yourself as a boutique individual firm. You focus on creating close personal relationships with your clients, your services are individualized and custom made, they don't have to deal with any corporate processes, you can give your full attention to their project, and (i am not sure on this one) you probably are a better deal.

 

Take all of the things that could be a "bad" thing about your company, and find out what is a positive bonus about them.

 

You may not have the best technology, but you have personalized technology.

 

I would always focus on the clients needs, you can sprinkle these points in when you feel it is necessary or they ask you questions about your firm but otherwise i would keep the conversations about their business and connect with their needs.

[gregjenkins]

Alas, for the most part, Greg is absolutely right - and then some, as they don't seem to know what constitutes good service, either.

 

Let me tell you why: I was a corporate trainer in Customer Service (the face-to-face kind, not the horrific contemporary corporate versions) for a billion-dollar venture capital firm for many years prior to returning to Architecture. When I started this company, I found that most, if not all, Architects thought that being on time, with good design and plans, and on budget constituted good service.

 

This is certainly true, and part and parcel of any good service. BUT ... as Greg points out, most of them fail to provide the Client with a sense of being well-serviced for a simple reason: They don't ask the magic question, i.e., "What has to happen in order for you to feel that we've provided you with exceptional service?"

 

Architectural Arrogance requires that, much like a physician, that we know what's better for the Client than they do. While this is also largely true, this particular brand of arrogance seems to preclude asking for the CLIENTS actual definition of what constitutes 'Good Service' to him or her. It's quite simple -- if you don't ASK, you don't KNOW.

 

Does anyone remember that great survey Architectural Record published about 15 years ago? They interviewed both GCs and Architects about what was most important in working together. In other words, Architects were asked what they felt was the most important service they provided to Contractors, and GCs were asked what was most important in getting good service from Architects.

 

Number One on the Architects' list: Providing Good Design. Where did that fall on the GC's list? Seventh. Think about that.

 

Number One of the GC's list of what they needed from Architects? Good Communication.

 

So, if you don't ask, you don't know.

 

Listen to Greg ... we need to get outside of our well-designed little boxes and pay attention to Professionals in THEIR line of work. After all, we expect our Clients to listen to us ... why shouldn't we be expected to listen to other Professionals when they speak?

 

Just my 2¢' worth.

 

This is an awesome post Scott.

 

The solution is so simple, it is ridiculous.

 

How can you know what someone wants if you never ask them?

 

Getting to know your customer is what i call the "One Key Fan Process".

 

This is probably the most critical thing you can personally do to help advertising your name in all aspects.

 

Take an hour or two and sit down with a blank sheet of paper and start to think about, who is the type of person that would love your product or service?

 

What is their day to day life like? What are their biggest frustrations? What are their biggest fears?

 

What are their dreams or goals with their life and career?

 

 

If you cannot figure this out on your own call a few clients or potential customers and ask them. Be honest about what you are doing.

 

Once you have these written out find out how your service solves these problems.

 

Once you have this figured out, market with it.

 

At the end of the day business (of any kind) is just one person solving another persons problem, fear, or frustration.

[Jeff Mottle]

Huge firms often market with crap material. They are usually the ones who are the furthest behind.

A perfect example of bland renderings being done by Starchitects for some very high profile project. EXHIBIT A. Zaha Hadid's work for the London Aquatic Center. http://www.zaha-hadid.com/architecture/london-aquatics-centre/# (click on Renders in the top menu). Either someone else did some better renderings and I've not been able to find them or her name alone makes the renderings better in the eyes of the stakeholders. Edited July 30, 2012 by Jeff Mottle

[gregjenkins]

yeah, I would say I know VERY few people in this industry who look at visualization as only a paycheck and a 9-5 job. Most are pretty committed to the craft.

 

For some, but many just do it because the opportunity arises and it's extra money. There are also some jobs that are too small or undesirable for the day job studio or company to be interested in so someone takes it as a side job. Once you get a few clients they usually keep coming back too. This is when people start thinking they will make a go of it on their own. Some make it, but most end up going back to a full time job as it's pretty tough to make it on your own as a freelancer in this field unless you have a pretty good business sense, coupled with being a good artist. The recession wiped out many of these people. Some moved to entirely new industries, other went back to architecture, and visualization companies. Most only do a few jobs a year just to supplement their income.

 

Interesting. I seem to be getting a lot of questions and concerns about freelance visualizers competing with bigger companies.

 

It makes a lot of sense to go out on your own once you have an established client base.

 

What are the specific questions a freelance or moonlighter visualizer will get from a client asking why they should go with him instead of a bigger company?

 

I think there are a ton of upsides of going with a smaller individual based company and am curious to the questions your clients throw at you.

[gregjenkins]

A perfect example of bland renderings being done by Starchitects for some very high profile project. EXHIBIT A. Zaha Hadid's work for the London Aquatic Center. http://www.zaha-hadid.com/architecture/london-aquatics-centre/# (click on Renders in the top menu). Either someone else did some better renderings and I've not been able to find them or her name alone makes the renderings better in the eyes of the stakeholders.

 

I am not professional at render analyzing but those look like they are from 2003. It has a similar look to the video game the Sims only with slightly higher quality graphics.

 

This is for the Oympics and got me thinking about what Ihab had said earlier about the political corruption in Lebanon.

 

Whoever assigned this rendering job definitely did it for more reasons than just the design.

[Jeff Mottle]

Interesting. I seem to be getting a lot of questions and concerns about freelance visualizers competing with bigger companies.

 

yeah, I'm not saying there are not a lot of freelancers, just that most don't last long term. The reason you see companies going to China and to freelancers is usually based on budget or trying to save a buck. Most larger viz firms I'm talking to lately are saying their getting a lot of that work back when the clients realize that communication with people in another country who can't speak the same language is usually far costlier and time consuming. Freelancers are limited in scope to what they can do as well. They can usually only handle 1-2 projects at a time, so availability can be an issue and you usually don't see freelancers organizing a greenscreen shoot, heli aerial footage, etc for the larger arch viz productions.

 

Freelancers usually only have a few good clients. That means if their client's situation changes, overnight so does 25-50% of their revenue. That's what happened with many during the start of the downturn. The people and companies that survived are the ones who were more savvy in business and diversified their client base or had a unique value proposition.

 

 

What are the specific questions a freelance or moonlighter visualizer will get from a client asking why they should go with him instead of a bigger company?

 

I'm sure many others will chime in on this one, but I'm going to say: "Can you do this for $500?...ok you're hired".