I just left a multi-million dollar marketing agency. Ask me anything.

[Scott Schroeder]

I am not professional at render analyzing but those look like they are from 2003. It has a similar look to the video game the Sims only with slightly higher quality graphics.

 

This is for the Oympics and got me thinking about what Ihab had said earlier about the political corruption in Lebanon.

 

Whoever assigned this rendering job definitely did it for more reasons than just the design.

 

The problem with this industry is that as bad as those renders are (though the concept of bad is user subjective) you can still see the form of the building. Do those renders look like the building does now? I mean, the building itself. If you look at the form of the building as it stands now and the form of the building in the render, are they the same or near the same? Yes they are, you cannot argue that point. So in the minds of the architect, the rendering was a success.

 

So why go the extra mile? Why spend the extra money? Those are the roadblock questions posed by the Old Breed that still runs much of the architect industry. Which is why we are cruising forward with our parking brake on wondering the entire time if there is something wrong with the engine.

 

All your slick marketing in the world can't convince the Old Breed that your new fancy-dancy method is any better. The building looks the same in a 2 dollar render as it does in a 200,000 dollar rendering. They only really care about their design, their building. They really don't care about the emotion that the render produces.

[Jeff Mottle]

All your slick marketing in the world can't convince the Old Breed that your new fancy-dancy method is any better. The building looks the same in a 2 dollar render as it does in a 200,000 dollar rendering. They only really care about their design, their building. They really don't care about the emotion that the render produces.

 

Brings up the question of who the stakeholders are. Politics and design vs trying to convince someone or sell something.

[Justin Hunt]

It also depends at what stage the project is at. In the beginning if you present a highly polished render many clients will freak out thinking that they have no input in the design process, it is finished before its even begun. As such we tend to present simpler, basic renders which evolve and become more resolved as the design becomes more resolved. We only have to take the renders so far, any further it is not cost effective.

 

Sadly those initial basic renders get picked up by the marketing people who need to get something out there now and cant/wont wait until the design is more resolved. As such these "Crappy" renders get out into the public realm and once they are out there there is no getting them back.

 

jhv

[Chris MacDonald]

This is exactly what I find happens all the time.

[gregjenkins]

yeah, I'm not saying there are not a lot of freelancers, just that most don't last long term. The reason you see companies going to China and to freelancers is usually based on budget or trying to save a buck. Most larger viz firms I'm talking to lately are saying their getting a lot of that work back when the clients realize that communication with people in another country who can't speak the same language is usually far costlier and time consuming. Freelancers are limited in scope to what they can do as well. They can usually only handle 1-2 projects at a time, so availability can be an issue and you usually don't see freelancers organizing a greenscreen shoot, heli aerial footage, etc for the larger arch viz productions.

 

Freelancers usually only have a few good clients. That means if their client's situation changes, overnight so does 25-50% of their revenue. That's what happened with many during the start of the downturn. The people and companies that survived are the ones who were more savvy in business and diversified their client base or had a unique value proposition.

 

 

 

 

I'm sure many others will chime in on this one, but I'm going to say: "Can you do this for $500?...ok you're hired".

 

 

So many companies i have seen try to outsource their work only to take 3 steps back once they realize how time consuming it is.

 

I see two solutions to the freelancer problem. Let me know if any of you guys have tried these out.

 

1. Like you mentioned in the above post, you diversify your client base, or you add a unique value proposition.

 

A diversified base will protect you against lost clients, and the unique value keeps clients from leaving.

 

2. Expand your staff

 

Many architects partner up to form firms. To me it seems like a great idea to get some visualizers together to do the same thing, in order to prevent losing 25% of your client base in one go as well as giving you the ability to take on bigger projects (although software might come into play here).

 

 

 

Have any of you had success with either of these options?

[gregjenkins]

The problem with this industry is that as bad as those renders are (though the concept of bad is user subjective) you can still see the form of the building. Do those renders look like the building does now? I mean, the building itself. If you look at the form of the building as it stands now and the form of the building in the render, are they the same or near the same? Yes they are, you cannot argue that point. So in the minds of the architect, the rendering was a success.

 

So why go the extra mile? Why spend the extra money? Those are the roadblock questions posed by the Old Breed that still runs much of the architect industry. Which is why we are cruising forward with our parking brake on wondering the entire time if there is something wrong with the engine.

 

All your slick marketing in the world can't convince the Old Breed that your new fancy-dancy method is any better. The building looks the same in a 2 dollar render as it does in a 200,000 dollar rendering. They only really care about their design, their building. They really don't care about the emotion that the render produces.

 

First Solution

 

Market to the new breed of architect. Every year thousands of people graduate from school with their degree in architecture. They understand how technology can benefit them professionally because they have grown up with it and still use it. How long do you think a 25 year old spend online compared to a 55 year old? Who hand draws things and who uses programs.

 

The younger ones might not have as much money, but if your a freelancer, you don't want massively big projects. Creating a relationship at the start of someones career will be lasting as oppose to jumping in the middle.

 

 

If someone is just asking you for the price than that may not be somebody you want to work with.

 

I notice that if people talk about what value a service or product can add first, then the price they usually are great customers. If they ask me about the price within 1 minute they usually are not good customers.

 

I have a feeling that this happens more in your field because i have seen many questions about it but it really comes down to the client. If like you said above there is nothing you can say to convince them that they shouldn't get a cheap $500 rendering....Do you really want them as your client?

 

Do you want someone who doesn't respect your work and craft as 25% of your business?

 

I say find the people who do want good renderings.

[gregjenkins]

It also depends at what stage the project is at. In the beginning if you present a highly polished render many clients will freak out thinking that they have no input in the design process, it is finished before its even begun. As such we tend to present simpler, basic renders which evolve and become more resolved as the design becomes more resolved. We only have to take the renders so far, any further it is not cost effective.

 

Sadly those initial basic renders get picked up by the marketing people who need to get something out there now and cant/wont wait until the design is more resolved. As such these "Crappy" renders get out into the public realm and once they are out there there is no getting them back.

 

jhv

 

I have thought about this a bit. Is there any type of hosting server that you can share your videos privately and embedded to your customers. Something where they can't download or share it, but they can watch it and give you feedback about it.

 

I think the misuse of renderings/design is really terrible. A work must be complete before it is shown to everyone.

[gregjenkins]

Today i had a meeting with a friend who has been training architects on their software programs, and is not moving into advertising. He had a lot of interesting stuff to say that i wanted to share with you guys.

 

He was telling me that architects see themselves as a profession not something you sell. (I know you guys already know this, but just be patient with me here for a minute) I was talking to him about how i would write scripts for videos at my advertising agency and how effective the method was. He was telling me that although it is, architects won't buy it. They don't want to give themselves off that way. They want to be like a doctor, unquestionable, a professional. They want to put out a new building and have millions of people ring their doorbell and congragulate them, they want to be Howard Roarke.

 

The architect's obsession with their work and design got me thinking about you guys. Your visualizations are a part of that design. If you can show an architect (who is not way out of the technological era) how a visualization can benefit his design it would be a great leap from just a $500 do it project.

 

How you would explain it is up to you guys, you are the professionals.

[gregjenkins]

I got some big news to share with you guys tomorrow, so stay tuned. I am pretty excited about it.

[Scott Schroeder]

First Solution

 

Market to the new breed of architect. Every year thousands of people graduate from school with their degree in architecture. They understand how technology can benefit them professionally because they have grown up with it and still use it. How long do you think a 25 year old spend online compared to a 55 year old? Who hand draws things and who uses programs.

 

The younger ones might not have as much money, but if your a freelancer, you don't want massively big projects. Creating a relationship at the start of someones career will be lasting as oppose to jumping in the middle.

 

 

If someone is just asking you for the price than that may not be somebody you want to work with.

 

I notice that if people talk about what value a service or product can add first, then the price they usually are great customers. If they ask me about the price within 1 minute they usually are not good customers.

 

I have a feeling that this happens more in your field because i have seen many questions about it but it really comes down to the client. If like you said above there is nothing you can say to convince them that they shouldn't get a cheap $500 rendering....Do you really want them as your client?

 

Do you want someone who doesn't respect your work and craft as 25% of your business?

 

I say find the people who do want good renderings.

 

Having taught the supposed "millennial" generation at the college level, I can assure you that most people are still very technology illiterate. And I was teaching AutoCAD and Revit to the world's future civil engineers at one of this country's top programs. They knew how to use Facebook and that was about it. So don't go assuming that just because someone is young that they know what they are doing with technology. Top it off with many of the larger architecture programs just brush on visualization, at least in the limited scope of what I've seen at the larger university level. Most of the viz work is done at art schools or in other separate programs at the University. Architecture and visualization have yet to really meet and have a good looking baby in most schools. They are still awkwardly looking at each other across the dance floor, afraid to make the first move.

 

The "new" breed of Architects are working for the Old Breed in the larger firms. The smaller firms are right were we are in terms of lack of extra budget to do anything cool. So you get kind of stuck working with the larger ones who have the extra money, yet are as exciting as watching paint dry. The people who want really good renderings are quite rare and those people usually already have someone they like to work with or the tend to stick with the larger viz houses who have more resources. Some of the better animations usually involve heavy use of custom green screen people, which for me is a larger undertaking than a firm with more on-hand resources like Neoscape. Populating the space in the images and animations is one of the ways to get away from the old ghost town, never been touched by humans look.

 

Yeah, the whole "do you really want them as a client" question comes up often here. It's a matter of this, plain and simple. Does my mortgage company accept that as an excuse to not pay them? Does my power company keep my power on with that line? No, plain and simple. You have to pay the bills son. I have a feeling you have no idea what goes into freelancing and the fact that, for some of us, it is our SOLE source of income. Yes, it's nice to be picky and choosey but sometimes you have to do some deep, dark, and unfortunate things to keep the bills paid. You said it yourself, you worked for a large firm. Have you ever worked for yourself? You do realize that most of us who freelance do everything from pitches to client relations to accounting to IT to R&D to production work right?

 

For what it's worth, I'm not really vibing the whole Tony Robbins/Billy Mays/Antony Sullivan gig here. Yeah, we know you came from marketing. Stop the "Ohhhhh big news tomorrow!" schtick. I'm waiting for you to sell us your great idea for $19.99 and if we act now, we'll get a second idea for free. You have good ideas and an outsiders perspective, but drop the gimmick.

[heni30]

yeah, I'm not saying there are not a lot of freelancers, just that most don't last long term. The reason you see companies going to China and to freelancers is usually based on budget or trying to save a buck. Most larger viz firms I'm talking to lately are saying their getting a lot of that work back when the clients realize that communication with people in another country who can't speak the same language is usually far costlier and time consuming. Freelancers are limited in scope to what they can do as well. They can usually only handle 1-2 projects at a time, so availability can be an issue and you usually don't see freelancers organizing a greenscreen shoot, heli aerial footage, etc for the larger arch viz productions.

 

Freelancers usually only have a few good clients. That means if their client's situation changes, overnight so does 25-50% of their revenue. That's what happened with many during the start of the downturn. The people and companies that survived are the ones who were more savvy in business and diversified their client base or had a unique value proposition.

 

 

 

 

I'm sure many others will chime in on this one, but I'm going to say: "Can you do this for $500?...ok you're hired".

 

The freelance buddy system is a viable option for handling a fluctuating volume of work. My main client had me as the main renderer but also had two back-people in reserve. Once or twice a year he'd need a couple of dozen or more renderings and the work would be divvyed up with no problems. Ernest mentioned he outsources modeling work.

 

Also, establishing a working relationship with an overseas firm might work for a freelancer. As a said before, last year I had to work with a Chinese company for 3 months to produce 40 renderings. We got to know each other pretty well so I would feel confident enough to take on something bigger than I can handle and perhaps I could employ translating services from one of the many Chinese students here at Georgia Tech in Atlanta.

 

My Chinese neighbor down the street is a universtiy professor. Her daughter is my daughter's best friend so we know each other very well. I had her call China a couple of times to talk to the company's project manager who I was dealing with. She was impressed and said the guy was very articulate and sounded very well educated. So there's this potential waiting to be exploited but the communication has to be a via native who understands the cultural aspects well.

Edited August 1, 2012 by heni30

[gregjenkins]

Having taught the supposed "millennial" generation at the college level, I can assure you that most people are still very technology illiterate. And I was teaching AutoCAD and Revit to the world's future civil engineers at one of this country's top programs. They knew how to use Facebook and that was about it. So don't go assuming that just because someone is young that they know what they are doing with technology. Top it off with many of the larger architecture programs just brush on visualization, at least in the limited scope of what I've seen at the larger university level. Most of the viz work is done at art schools or in other separate programs at the University. Architecture and visualization have yet to really meet and have a good looking baby in most schools. They are still awkwardly looking at each other across the dance floor, afraid to make the first move.

 

The "new" breed of Architects are working for the Old Breed in the larger firms. The smaller firms are right were we are in terms of lack of extra budget to do anything cool. So you get kind of stuck working with the larger ones who have the extra money, yet are as exciting as watching paint dry. The people who want really good renderings are quite rare and those people usually already have someone they like to work with or the tend to stick with the larger viz houses who have more resources. Some of the better animations usually involve heavy use of custom green screen people, which for me is a larger undertaking than a firm with more on-hand resources like Neoscape. Populating the space in the images and animations is one of the ways to get away from the old ghost town, never been touched by humans look.

 

Yeah, the whole "do you really want them as a client" question comes up often here. It's a matter of this, plain and simple. Does my mortgage company accept that as an excuse to not pay them? Does my power company keep my power on with that line? No, plain and simple. You have to pay the bills son. I have a feeling you have no idea what goes into freelancing and the fact that, for some of us, it is our SOLE source of income. Yes, it's nice to be picky and choosey but sometimes you have to do some deep, dark, and unfortunate things to keep the bills paid. You said it yourself, you worked for a large firm. Have you ever worked for yourself? You do realize that most of us who freelance do everything from pitches to client relations to accounting to IT to R&D to production work right?

 

For what it's worth, I'm not really vibing the whole Tony Robbins/Billy Mays/Antony Sullivan gig here. Yeah, we know you came from marketing. Stop the "Ohhhhh big news tomorrow!" schtick. I'm waiting for you to sell us your great idea for $19.99 and if we act now, we'll get a second idea for free. You have good ideas and an outsiders perspective, but drop the gimmick.

 

I really enjoy your posts, they truly put my ideas to the test and really hammer some hard hitting points.

 

I have worked for myself many times, and am starting to work for myself again.

 

I want to share a story with you of my 3 year run in a profession that where price rather than service comes up at the beginning of every single meeting. An industry where people don't give a damn about the service and are just trying to save money.

 

Insurance

 

I sold Health, Auto, Home, Life, and Commercial and i can say this firmly, if you can sell insurance you can sell anything.

 

The first year was damn rough, i had been told to screw off hundreds of times and ran back and forth between me and my company representatives to give someone that extra $50 off of their policy and it hardly ever worked. I would get frustrated because nobody in the world really understands or wants to hear how my insurance policy offers better coverage and will save your ass in a disaster. They just want the lower price.

 

In such a competitive industry there is always going to be a company that will have a lower price than you, a cheaper way to do it, a better pitch to give you a rebate.

 

One day i finally realized that i had to change something. I read http://www.amazon.com/People-Buy-You-Matters-Business/dp/0470599111

and the whole way i looked at dealing with clients flipped around.

 

Every person has problems in their life, every person has frustrations, every person has fears. These are not things that they will divulge with any person that they meet. They have to trust you, think that you care about their business, think that you are in it for them. Once this happens they will be open to answer questions about their problems honestly.

 

Once you find out there problems you find a solutions for them.

 

My world was a bit shocked when i started to realize that the same people who were running me back and forth to get that extra 15% discount every month actually had specific things that they were frustrated with in their policies. e.g. I got in an auto accident 2 years ago and they didn't pay for damages to the windshield. My health insurance doesn't cover me for chiropractor care. I was sued by an employee through workers comp and i didn't have enough liability to cover it.

 

I understand the situation that you guys are in and have been there. If you sell on price the Chinese shop down the street will always beat you.

 

I highly recommend checking out that book.

[gregjenkins]

The freelance buddy system is a viable option for handling a fluctuating volume of work. My main client had me as the main renderer but also had two back-people in reserve. Once or twice a year he'd need a couple of dozen or more renderings and the work would be divvyed up with no problems. Ernest mentioned he outsources modeling work.

 

Also, establishing a working relationship with an overseas firm might work for a freelancer. As a said before, last year I had to work with a Chinese company for 3 months to produce 40 renderings. We got to know each other pretty well so I would feel confident enough to take on something bigger than I can handle and perhaps I could employ translating services from one of the many Chinese students here at Georgia Tech in Atlanta.

 

That is a great idea starting a relationship overseas. It will allow you to be more cost effective and handle bigger projects. Certain things you just can't tackle alone.

[gregjenkins]

Alright guys since i left my agency me and my friend have been working on a business that we just got up and running.

 

I am really excited to get this out there and start working for myself again. We are a full service Web Studios for Architects, you can check out the website here.

 

completionwebdesign[dot]com/

 

 

I understand that most of you guys are freelancers and moonlighters so if you are interested in anything i would like to talk about what i can do for you. And if things don't match up, i will at least give you and advertising plan for your business, for free.

 

If you have questions you can e-mail me here

 

studio@completionwebdesign[dot]com

 

I would also like to hear your feedback on the site and video. What do you guys like about it? What would you change?

 

Don't worry i am still going to be coming here daily to make my posts and have an interesting story to share with you after this.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Jeff Mottle

[Nic H]

aarrrghhhhh wtf

im seriously thinking that you are a bot...?

 

suspicious lol

[Jeff Mottle]

aarrrghhhhh wtf

im seriously thinking that you are a bot...?

 

suspicious lol

 

LOL, that last post was way out of left field for sure!

[Scott Schroeder]

I knew it! He was selling something all along!

[Nic H]

Yep I feel stupid now for contributing.

That website he linked to is a joke. Total scam.

 

Ban this guy.

 

:lol:

[heni30]

Yep, but it wasn't a total loss - some interesting points were made.

 

And the website is the most generic, bland, vanilla flavor..........where do we sign up to get one just like it!

[Nic H]

well not really - there was nothing specific in his writing it was all 'mumbo jumbo' really...

the gall to come here and preach to people who work in teh industry THEN trying to sell direct marketing videos .... via a fake scam site

[heni30]

I didn't mean good points by him - I meant by US!

[Nic H]

ah yes some good points made regardless....

how much do web marketing people like this get paid? is it related to hits and click-through rates?

he did a good job for - a true professional web bot

[Fooch]

Wow .. firstly i must give you credit in dragging us all into your sales pitch.

 

Here's my feedback for your site and "video sales" ---> its bad template-ish and amateurish

Look around.. most architectural teams have a better website than yours and i doubt a bad wordpress template would suffice.

You would need to rethink your strategy on selling to our industry because unlike you, the people on this forum is actually serious about their work.

 

Good luck in your new company. You will need it.

[johannes]

Incredible thread! And how desperate people can get....

[Nils Norgren]

Hi All, I have to say that I have been following this thread since it started, and always felt like there was another shoe about to drop (as pointed out by others). I don't think that the poster had ill will, he is just executing his strategy. What he seem to totally lack is an understanding of who we are, clearly at the beginning he thought we were Architects, but after careful posts, folks here generally got him in the right direction, (I would say still not all the way to understanding).

 

In my opinion he still needs some honing of his sales skills. Some fundamental keys are; never talk down to your audience, understand their needs (he spoke often of this) and get them comfortable with you. I would say he missed on all accounts (with me at least), even though clearly being well versed in selling.

 

From watching the 4 min video on his site, (can't get that time back) It seems like he is touting a "Solving the problem of Architects" formula. I have to say I was offended by the graphics, illustrations and animation (among others). Looking back, he is totally of base if he claims to understand the problems better than us, especially if he watched any CGA awards work from the last decade (compared to bad stick figure animation with cheesy VO) or any other marketing films produced by members of this audience.

 

I hold this audience in high regard, from moonlighters to the most established studios, we should be proud of our industry and the work we produce. It is offensive to be told "you are doing it wrong" when it is your life's work, we all take the time (I hope) to craft an individual solution for each client.

 

Knowing that the industry is a small one, I would be interested to hear if anyone come across this company from clients or different channels. I would like to commend the group on it's respect and willingness to engage, I hope this continues and things like this don't jade our view.

 

-Nils - Neoscape