Getting new PC - which are the important factors?

[sparksue]

Hi everybody!

 

Have been using my computer for almost 4 years and it's time for a chance.

However would like to know which are the most important factor to consider?

[1 is the most important to the least]

 

I understand that there's a few items that we need to get it.

 

1. MotherBoard

2. Ram

3. Graphic Card

4. CPU

 

The rest should not have any effect on the modeling / rendering part.

 

Is a mid-price PC is more than enough to survive up to 2-3 years? [Just the PC, without monitor/speaker/mouse/keyboard, my budget is around S$1200 - US$980]

I always feel that getting too high-end doesn't really help as PC tend to become 'old' after every 6-8 month.

 

I hope someone can give me advice on this? Thanks!

 

Regards,

Spark

[sparksue]

anyone able to give advice on this??

[Dimitris Tolios]

You budget is tight. You are right identifying it as a mid-range workstation, but you are wrong that it will be outdated in 6 or so months.

Most people who build their own systems, try to get enough education on the subject so that the components they will get will last them a couple of upgrades here and there, so it is not always reckless spending aiming for a bit above mainstream.

 

When you ask for a system, it would be great if you would describe what you are upgrading from, what programs you are using or plan on using etc (for readers to have a sense of where you come from and where you want to go)

 

You can get a decent system around $1000, but in order to get good components - mainly a good GPU - you pretty much limit yourself to a i5 GPU or if you are leaning towards AMD, probably something in the FX 8120 class. You could buy mainstream towers from Dell or Acer etc with an i7 for that price, but most likely it will be lacking a lot in the GPU department, and probably the PSU that comes with it will be pushing it in case you want to add a powerful GeForce or Radeon card in the future.

 

Proof that systems don't get old that easy?

The current "3rd Gen" of Core CPUs is actually not even half generation ahead of the "old" ones. It is technically the same chip with certain optimizations that make it completely needless for a 2nd gen i5 or i7 owner to upgrade. GPUs grow fast towards improving gaming performance, but actual performance in most 3D applications is not that much better. For example the current 6xx Geforce series of GPUs is hardly better than the 2xx series (that's 3 generations behind, before 4xx and 5xx series) in OpenGL Viewport acceleration. You get more Ram for the price, that does help in some ways, you get much better hardware acceleration for applications that do use it (you have to know what you need, and ask), but that's a sidestep towards a changing environment, not a straight upgrade.

 

Some suggestions:

 

i5 2500K/3750K $220-230 - ASRock Z77 Extreme4 $135

AMD 8120 $150-160- GIGABYTE GA-990FXA-UD3 $135

 

 

The above are solid choices. Most important, the mobos are rich in features and O/C potential: you can get a solid 40% O/C on both scenarios, even more. If you "refuse" to O/C, you just sacrifice 40% performance your chip (unlocked exactly for o/c) was build to provide.

 

For both:

 

Cooler: Cooler master 212 Evo - maybe the best value for money cooler, can keep them happy @ 4.5-4.7GHz depending on room temperature. $25-30. Yes, the stock cooler can do fine if you don't O/C. This will give better temps weather you do or not.

 

RAM: 4x4GB are cheaper. These mobos have 4x slots, so if you think you will need more than 16GB, go for 2x8GB sticks, and leave room for 16GB more. DDR 1600 is nice to have. AMD really likes faster RAM to perform at its best. Samsung DDR3 1600 4GB sticks (low profile, no heatsinks, 1.35V base voltage) are great if all you need is 4x4. Those cost around $40 a pair, and overclock easily to 2133 or more with actually less voltage than most 2133 kits (around 1.5-1.6 is the norm for most faster than 1600 kits). Otherwise go with a low profile heatsink kit (like the G.Skill Ares or Corsair Veng LP). Large heatsinks add nothing really to stability or O/C potential - something the samsung sticks prove as it has been proven in the past multiple times. - also keep in mind that some of those

ultra-cool-looking huge RAM heatsinks/heat-spreaders obstruct the mounting of really big CPU air-coolers, which really do make a difference.

 

PSU:

This is important. Get a quality PSU. 80+ Bronze is the minimum, 80+ silvers and golds are ofc better, but those will be too expensive for your budget. You need to get a 600-650W PSU, unless you find a really good 500-550W one.

Best companies are Seasonic, Corsair, Antec, Enermax. Those are pricey, but they worth it (most of the times)...you get a unit that will probably last more than the other components. Get a cheap PSU, and you might end up with the component that took 1-2 other components with it when it blew under load.

 

an i5 system with decent Overclock and a mid-range GTX or radeon might be in the 350W range actual load. Add 20% PSU ineficiency, and you will see pretty fast that cheapo units that can give their rated capacity only as a sticker will die fast under the stress. a 600W PSU will run easier with 300-400W loads and will allow you some headroom for future upgrades - in case you want to swap your i5 for an i7, or get a better GPU etc.

Edited August 15, 2012 by dtolios

[sparksue]

Hi Dimitris,

 

Thanks for the advice! Will look through your comment at night and come back with more information regarding my CPU.

My computer is more toward modeling / rendering purpose.

But thanks for recommending some Mobo / graphics so that I can start with. I thought of getting i7 / 32 GB ram, with a low-end graphic card. Is this combo good? Or should I get 16gb ram will do at the moment and get a better graphic card instead?

[John Dollus]

32 gb ram seems quite a bit of overkill for what you are building. Do your scenes now use that much? Ram is also one of the easiest upgrades to make over time if you grow into it so I'd recommend following Dimitris advice and put that RAM money into a good power supply. Faulty power (undersized, variable volatge etc) kills systems pretty quickly.

[sparksue]

Hi there!

Thanks for all the advise that i got from you guys. Really appreciate it.

Here's the following items and things that I thought of getting it - however I notice that my price will goes up very high compare to the budget that I got it. So would hope to get advises on the stuffs that I get.

 

Things to do for my new computer.

 

1. Intend to do more toward Interior housing render [no architect render] - still pictures, don't really foreseen any animations for now.

2. Software to use - 3ds Max, Sketch-up [Modeling], vRay, Photoshop, autocad.

3. modeling - Tend to create all the scene areas within the house using one file - meaning the file will be big and lots of models [evermotion models], don't really intend to divide the scenes into different file even though it's advisable to do this way.

-----------------------

Future upgrading

 

1. Increase to 32 GB Ram

2. Might be getting i7 or even better CPU since my upgrade should be after 6-12 months later if allow.

----------------------

CPU Config

 

Mobo + CPU : Asrock Z77 Pro3 Gen 3 + i5 3570k [Possible to OC to 3770k? If possible, should i get lower CPU to save cost? - I can't OC into i7 speed right?] ** Understand that it's better to use ASRock Z77 Extreme4 but I notice that I intend to use 1 x graphic card instead of 2, does it really useful to get 2 graphic cards?

Memory DDR3 Kit : Corsair Vengeance 1600MHz CL9 / G-Skill RipJawX 1600MHz CL9 2 x 8GB [Which is better also which one will be ideal if I intend to overclock it to 2000 or even 2133 MHz?

HDD : WD 1TB 64MB Caviar Blue

Graphic Card : I am not sure on this, anyone able to give me advice on this? Base on my configuration which card is better to equip with it? So at least I can do further research from the graphic card - possible to OC as well?

ATX Casing : Is it important to get a very good casing for the computer if i had cooler to help me out?As I don't really fancy much on those nice casing. Just a simple function casing that can help me will do.

Internal SATA DvD/DvD Writer : Asus DRW-24B3ST 24X DvDRW SATA

Power Supply : Corsair GS700 / Antec HCG 620W 80+ Bronze [Based on my configuration - does 620w more than enough or should i get higher watt for future upgrading and Overclocking for my cpu?]

CPU Cooler : Cool Master Hyper 212 EVO [should I get the Turbo Edition or normal one will do?]

 

Anything that I left out?

Also there's some important things to factor in based on my configuration.

 

1. Will there be any effects if in future I intend to upgrade my ram to 32gb but different DDR3 kit? I remember that it's doesn't allow to have mixed RAM to use together.

2. Will it get over heating if I intend to OC most of the items? [Will be good that anyone can advise me what's the 'tipping point' when overclocking the system - CPU and RAM.

3. My computer might turn on for a long time - rendering. [might turn on 24 hrs as rushing for works. usual working time (Autocad, Modeling, Rendering) is around 3-4 hours]

4. Does overclocking the ram 1600mhz to 2000 / 2133mhz burn the ram in long term?

5. Once OC it, I won't change it back so will it get burn or things happen after long working period? I hope that my system can last 2-3 years with upgrading in mind.

 

That's all guys. I hope someone can give me further advice so that I can finalize some of the items and graphic card that suit my system - As I mentioned earlier that the cost might be high but I will see what I can or maybe tone it down [Getting better MOBO but lower CPU]

 

Thanks guys!!

[Dimitris Tolios]

You ask a lot of stuff, you understand that it will be difficult to answer everything.

So, in no particular order:

 

1) the i5-3570K is not a slower i7-3770K. The latter is of upscalled design, has more bells and whistles but the 2 main components you would care and pay for are:

1. HyperThreading (HT) support: both i5 and i7 are quad core CPUs, but the i7 "splits" each core into 2x processing threads. For small, light tasks, this effectively makes the OS see it as an 8-thread (virtual 8-core) CPU. It helps multitasking and helps HT
   
2. HD4000 intergrated GPU instead of HD2500 - useful for some applications that can recognize and use the integrated GPU as a performance boosting tool (mostly video trans-coding uses it today, and Adobe will be using it in the future for most of their suite). It is also a plus as a backup GPU if your main one fails, etc.
   

 

2) The 3570K can overclock pretty well, actually usually better than the 3770K.

It is a simpler chip, thus requires a tad less Vcore and heats up a tad slower.

For single thread applications (those that don't use more than one thread/core), like general modelling in any package (3DS / Sketchup / Maya etc), and basic photo editing, the i5 is clock to clock as fast as a i7. Both 3770K and 3570K can routinely reach 4.3-4.4GHz with minimal if any Vcore increase. Decent boards like the mid-range ashrock above can do 4.6-4.7 if you area agressive yet safe with Vcore boost, and top of the line boards can do up to 4.8-4.9GHz unless you are unlucky and get a bad O/C chip (each one is unique and there is some luck involved in getting a really good o/cing chip).

 

In a nutshell: a i7 is faster only when you heavily multitask or when you render. An i5 o/ced to higher speeds is actually faster for single threaded stuff.

 

3) GPU: you will have to do some reading around - there are many recent threads in the hw sub-forum of this site. No, you don't need 2x GPUs for a mainstream $1k workstation by any mean, nor you can squeeze in 2x that will surpass an equally priced single card in almost anything but pure gaming.

 

There are 2 roles for GPUs in a modern ArchViz workstation:

1. Viewport acceleration: to help you navigate, orbit, pan and texture complex models without glitches
   
2. GPU accelerated rendering and/or texturing: Octane, VRay RT-GPU, Mari, iRay etc - these plugin or stand-alone tools use your GPU instead of your CPU to render. If one of those is in your workflow, you need to plan accordingly.
   

 

As a rule of thumb, AMD Radeon cards in your price range (I don't think you will have much more than $200-220 for a GPU) do a little to much better in viewport acceleration, yet driver issues or nvidia oriented applications for it etc don't help them on GPU renderings. Aim for a GTX 560ti if you go for GPU rendering on a budget. Note - read more on GPU rendering, no it won't help standard biased CPU rendering with Vray get any faster, nor do the intergrated GPUs in the CPUs help. Yet.

 

4) HDD: Don't get a 5400rpm drive (like the WD blue line). Go for a 7200rpm drive, it really is faster.

 

5) DVD-RW - Asus / LG / Samsung / lite-on - all are great. Get the cheapest one, you won't be using it a lot to make a difference.

 

Cooler: 212 EVO i know as the best value for money. i don't know what the Turbo offers, i will look into it.

 

PSU: Both mentioned should be more than enough

 

RAM: : I don't know which will overclock better. Maybe both won't - I don't own any kit, so I cannot verify. Don't go for fancy heatsinks, get the ones with low profile heatsinks, as the tall one might interfere with your CPU cooler that is actually doing something for your system. RAM heatsinks are placebo more or less and offer little or no improvement.

 

Overclocking "tipping point": The tipping point is overheating and instability. If you over-do it, the system is unstable and might crash under load. Yes the components that receive more Voltage than specified and run at much higher speeds than specified do heat up a lot. That's a reason you get a better cooler to begin with.

 

Also how "clean" and stable the voltage supplied to the component is critical. Good motherboards usually differ into providing better and more stable voltage regulation to the CPU. It makes it run cooler and more stable.

 

When O/Ced, components run much much harder than you think: a 3570K that is "on paper" a 77w chip, will draw as much as 200W when pushed to 4.7+ GHz...and ofc the mobo CPU supporting MOSFets will have to work overtime...and who does provide the juice for all that?

The PSU - thus it is extremely important to get a unit that doesn't sweat to provide ample and "clean" (without voltage ripples, but stable and accurate) power.

 

Over time, components that are REALLY pushed, might deteriorate = require more voltage to be stable @ their o/ced speed or not fail to maintain that speed stably no matter what. If you keep your Ivy bridge CPU around 1.3-1.35V or lower, it will probably last forever. Most CPUs do pretty good even on stock voltage, but you need to push it to go past 4.4 or so GHz. PPl go closer to or above 1.4v vfor 4.9-5GHz speeds, but that's also with extreme cooling etc.

 

The same goes for RAM: most 2133 modules are factory recomended @ 1.65V or so. That's "factory recipe" for O/C. Sticks do get hotter, do deteriorate, but that will happen over such a long period that it is considered irrelevant for the expected lifespan of electronics. You will probably won't care much if you system offers performance that would require 2x the money for a few years through a process that "might" get it to fail in 10 years of continuous use instead of 15-20. The investment should have paid way before that.

 

Yes, you can O/C and return to factory specs easily. Many mobos can do that even though windows - you don't even have to reboot and enter BIOS.

Edited August 11, 2012 by dtolios

[sparksue]

Hi Dimitris,

 

Thanks for the advice.

 

As for the MOBO : I am still deciding between Asrock Z77 Pro3 Gen3 or Asrock Z77 Extreme4 with i5-3570K [A different of US$20-US$25] Since I am OC [Maybe to 4Ghz as I want to play safe], I should just go ahead on Asrock Z77 Extreme 4 instead?

 

As for the Ram : I based on your advice of getting 1600mhz so that I can overclock it to 2000mhz without much issue. [As My site here don't have Samsung that you recommend] But as you mention that it might not be able to OC...Should I just get a higher mhz instead? If yes, then I might change to 1866mhz instead [Without doing OC at all] - I research on the their website and notice that Vengeance 1600 / 1866 MHz able to overclock it but not to a extend of 2133MHz or 2000MHz.

 

Noted on the HDD : Then I will get Toshiba 1TB 7200PRM instead.

 

GPU Card : Based on your recommendation. Which brand should I get for the graphic cards? [Asus / Palit]

 

1. Asus GTX 560 TI DCII 1 GB DDR5

2. Asus GTX 560 TI DCII TOP 2 GB DDR5

3. Palit GTX 560 TI 2GB GDDR5

 

Base on your recommendation, it's better to use GTX instead of those Radeon / HD series graphic card?

 

Hope to hear from you soon.

Thanks!

[Dimitris Tolios]

Unfortunately I am not aware of a DDR 1600 Kit that overclocks great, other than those Samsung 30nm that unfortunately come only @ 4GB sticks. Theoretically all sticks using these chips should overclock similarly - I don't know who else uses them atm tho. Getting a 1866 kit to boot with, is not a bad idea and the price difference is not that terrible. Performance boost will be decent, yet rarely noticeable outside of benchmark applications etc. Note that both the Sandybridge/Ivy Bridge architectures intel uses are not that RAM dependent: overclocking the CPU is the single and most profound upgrade you can do.

 

Performance difference in going for RAM kits faster than 1866 is simply not cost efficient, as the performance gains are insignificant when taking into account the bigger picture. Also keep in mind that for rendering, modeling etc, memory bandwidth means almost nothing past a certain level. Whether you have 1333 or 2133 DDR3, you won't see significant differences for everyday applications in this field.

 

GPU: the Radeons are much better for Viewport acceleration in OpenGL applications and OK to great for most Direct3D applications (3DS and Autocad are D3D, maya and sketchup are OpenGL to name a few). If you don't play with GPU accelerated rendering to setup your lights or produce your final images and you are happy using the classic, biased CPU VRay renderer (scrap the unknown words, keep classic VRay in mind), then a Radeon up to $200 or so might be the best choice.

 

Some applications do use CUDA acceleration which is a proprietary technology/command set for nVidia cards. If you need one of these applications, unfortunately you can do nothing but get nVidia (if MARI or Octane Render rings a bell, then this is the case).

 

VRay RT GPU is a powerful tool to produce simple renders much faster than classic CPU Vray, or setup your lights and materials by rendering your scenes directly on the GPU. It is primarily OpenCL based, which means that works on all GPUs, and in theory it is much faster in high-end Radeons. Problem is, catalyst drivers are more often not working with VRay RT than do, so again, nVidia wins as AMD forfeits the matches all the time.

 

Keep in mind that no GPU has anything to do with the classic VRay's rendering speed, either will do NOTHING better if you are not using VRay RT GPU). Also keep in mind that VRay RT has also a CPU mode (now available in VRay for Rhino 1.5 ontop of 3DS).

 

If you plan on using any kind of GPU accelerated rendering, the memory on your card is important, as the whole scene you are trying to render, including geometry xrefs materials etc has to fit in the GPU's Buffer for it to start working. This size is hard to judge. It is different (usually smaller) than the Ram ammount VRay Adv uses when rendering with your CPU. In this case, getting a 2GB GTX 560ti makes sense. Otherwise 1GB is more than enough to work and game in single monitors, and would only be an issue if you would be running games with high AA settings.

 

Overclocking:

The Ivy Bridge is actually more resilient to degradation than Sandy bridge. Overclocking it is pretty safe and results are guaranteed to last for longer than you will probably be using the chip if you don't exceed 1.35V. Average chips overclock to 4.8GHz with that Vcore. As long as you don't stress the chip past 85oC you will be fine to use that voltage for 24/7 operation, as 1000s users do for quite some time now. Ivy throttles down past 105oC, but you don't want to keep your CPU going past 90oC for prolonged times - simply doesn't worth stressing it that much.

 

4.0GHz o/c is almost a joke mind you. People are hitting 4.2+ GHz on stock Vcores with most 3570Ks. Don't be too conservative.

 

Also keep in mind that most CPUs are "improving" after a few days worth of burn-in. Aka, you might set your mind and limit it to 1.3V Vcore, and see that you cannot get past 4.5GHz with that...stress testing for stability with Prime95 or other torture tests for a day or so, more often than not "breaks in" the circuit, which after that might push stably to 4.6 or so without extra voltage. You can play around for a week or so (unless you grow tired of it sooner) and settle for the Vcore/clock balance that you will fill most comfortable with.

[sparksue]

Hi Dimitris,

 

Thanks for your reply. If your advises.

 

1. I will be going ahead with 1866MHz instead of 1600MHz, at least when the time to upgrade. The possibility of getting same chips is higher compare to 1600MHz. [AS for OC, since you mention it's doesn't really have much effect. Will just leave at it is]

 

2. As for the GPU, I think I will just use the normal V-Ray Adv 2.10.01 [Not Vray RT - I am not sure about this program]. As mention earlier, I am using Vray, 3ds Max, SketchUp and Photoshop. [Together with models from evermotion models] I also do seldom Animation. Meaning I can actually save up some cash by getting 1GB instead of 2GB plus it's better to get GTX instead of HD series? Also I notice that instead of getting GTX 560 TI, I can actually save more cash and use GTX 570 - So is GTX 570 1GB better than GTX 560 TI 2 GB?

 

3. Noted for the OC, the reason why I conservative about the OC is that it's happened to my eldest bro when too much OC and give alot of problems [Which of cause happened almost 10 years ago...] Which is why till now I don't really dare to OC till now due to saving costs / budget.

 

4. One more thing, so based on your suggestion. If I intend to clock as your advice - 4.2 GHz, I should get Asrock Z77 Extreme4 + i5-3570K.

 

Hope to hear from your advice soon. Thanks!!!