starslicer Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Greetings, I am currently working on my capstone for technology management.My selected topic is workflows at architectural offices. I’ve worked for two officesin my time and one had a workflow where the principal architect would draw byhand the early ideas and our visualization specialist would model the buildingin Revit. Then I would get involved starting working drawings and he would renderit right in Revit. I was never really impressed with the quality and was tryingto get him to use 3ds Max when I got laid off… I’ve heard of other firms using SketchUp early on thenmoving to Revit from there. I want to get some ideas of some workflows at theoffices you guys work at. I’m not looking for any company secrets or anythingtoo specific. My goal for this is to explore a few workflows and find a reallygood one to research on specifically. Thank You- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M V Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 1. Concept design - hand drawings and/or AutoCAD plans and elevations of basic layout 2. Concept into Schematic - SketchUp models to study mass and work through design options 3. Design Development - Revit model begun 4. DD-CD - Revit 5. Marketing - Revit model is exporting into Max or imported into SketchUp for texturing / rendering Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Schroeder Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 I don't know if there is a golden rule that applies. I think each office has a slightly different workflow, as far as visualization goes. Typically as Valero pointed out, that is the basic workflow. However, I'm pushing our office to have me modeling more concurrently with the Revit team. Simply because Revit cannot export out a very high quality model and the time it takes to fix the Revit export, I could have done it from scratch in Max. The Revit team is creating construction docs and not thinking about the model and Max. Does it look good on paper from the top down or in a section view? That is all that matters, and all that should matter to the Revit team. However, then comes the whole ball of string of what do you do when changes come down the line. How do you push changes from Revit to Max and Max to Revit? I know you can link files but with massive projects that becomes a hindrance. Though we go to Max Stage 1 during the project pitch/bid phase. We have Max Stage 2 when the project is won and we start the actual design process. Since our principal architects are more old school, a lot of the initial design is still done with pencil and paper. Which I think is great. Its fast, its cheap, its easy to change. It gets expensive when you start getting into 3D at such an early stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Fantucchio Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Scott I work in an architecture firm as the vis specialist and I usually receive Revit models in the fashion you describe very early on. I am looking to now learn Revit to be a stronger part of the modeling process. What about a Revit model is not high quality or were is it lacking. I certainly have to delete all of the furniture and fixtures and appliances(I almost exclusively work in interiors). But the models themselves seem structurally OK to me. I have heard this not just from you but other Viz folks as well regarding Revit. Sorry to bring this thread off track a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Schroeder Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Revit models are heavy in terms of sheer number of objects. Rather than have 1 wall, you have many walls per segment. Window mullions are even worse. Yes, structurally it is not bad. For me, a long time native Max from start to finish user for Viz, Revit models are clunky and have that hewn from stone unrealistic look with the perfectly sharp edges on everything. Granted, work around techniques abound for that like using the edge material on the bump slot. You also have UVW map inconsistencies, mult-sub material inconsistencies, and so on. Let's not even get into the isolated verticies and just poor triangulation on curved objects. They are just not clean models. But the kicker is, they are never meant to be clean models. You lose so much and gain so much going from parametric modeling to Max. So really don't hold it against Revit for doing a half-assed exporting job. For interiors or for small structures this isn't too bad. However, when you get into large project like sports arenas, then you are talking about some serious issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starslicer Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 Ungh I can hardly post in this thread because I am new I think. Hopefully the things I just posted will show up later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter M. Gruhn Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 Firm I used to work in the partners seemed to do most of their preliminary work in their heads and then into AutoCAD. Drawings just moved from DD into CD. I would peel off plots from the elevations, to color in Photoshop without linework. The color would then be laid in behind the line work in AutoCAD and voila, colored elevations for the design review board. Updates to the elevations were no kind of automatic, but modifications were usually simple. Every now and then renderings would be needed so I'd branch the current drawings into 3d. Cleanup in ACAD with rendering in 3ds Max. The particulars of that workflow changed over the years regarding where the modelling gets done depending on my changing skills with the two programs. Post in Photoshop. This process (or perhaps my own skillset) did not allow for a dynamic design and much in the way of fluid response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starslicer Posted August 11, 2012 Author Share Posted August 11, 2012 Sounds old school, however thank you for your input. As forissues with importing Revit models into max there are a few like Scott postedabove. http://www.maplemediastudio.com/images/eastwash19.jpgis my most recent rendering and it was modeled by me in Revit and imported intoMax. So I decided to go in and check the mullions and there were 1117 totalobjects when selecting all mullions. Needless to say there are not 1117 ofthem. Also, I would like to add that I was part of the Revit team when I created that model. Most project managers do not want us modeling too much in Revit. They just want it right on paper which makes for a pretty terrible model for use in anything else. That model is really good though and theres hardly any line work. Also, when I import I have a hard time modifying some of thegeometry. I wanted to make some small EIFS control joints on the EIFS sectionsof the store fronts. So I isolated the EIFS section and switched to editablepoly. I used a slice plan to create to slices and make a small cut of faces topush in. Turned into a mess because Max had no idea where the faces were so Iwent over to vertices and it was the same thing. I would have to select somevoid space about half an inch to the left to get the selection I wanted. Max had no idea where anything was on thescreen and when I rotated it, it garbled all over my screen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umesh Raut Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 nice looking render Jamie, but for those trees and human in shadow, they somehow look pasted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevitGary Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 (edited) I model in revit and link to max all the time very successfully. I really cant see doing it any other way. The revit model changes with it the cd set changes and the max rendering changes. Kind of a perfect workflow if you as me. I mass model in revit also. I only model trees and furniture in max. I dont concern myself too much with materials in revit. All my material assignments and mapping are done in max. I only apply materials enough in revit to make the model look good in revit. I make it look great in max. Edited August 12, 2012 by RevitGary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starslicer Posted August 12, 2012 Author Share Posted August 12, 2012 nice looking render Jamie, but for those trees and human in shadow, they somehow look pasted. Yeah I'm not sure what to do about it. Those trees are actually 3d. The people are pasted in though, I guess I could go in and put some shading on them to integrate them a bit better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevitGary Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 (edited) I have never understood why so many people put the building in shade. I like to keep the sun on the left corner if possible. I know in this case you are matching a photo. I would take a new photo at a different time of day when the sun is hitting the front of the building. The sun on your background trees doesnt seem to match the sun in the photo. That brown color on the buildings seems to be a bit too green. Would be nice to see some depth into the buildings Edited August 12, 2012 by RevitGary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umesh Raut Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 (edited) hmmm..........hmm, thought they were from some collection like rpc, they look two polygon billboard types. If they are actually 3D then you would be better off by lighting them separately for that additional depth. Just a thought though. Plus a couple points by Gary above, except the background matching thing. Its clear that you got a photo and needed to match, happens all the time in viz. Edited August 13, 2012 by umeshraut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic H Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 a perfect workflow? using a revit model inside max? thats the worst case scenario /nightmare tbh. max handles it terribly (large number of objects etc)- what if you need to make changes to the model or edit things? at the end of the day you are making an image - is it that important that you have all that hidden uselessly detailed geometry? judging from that image it seems you are being constrained from making a decent image by the whole 'im an architect we use the documentation model to produce the perfect matched image' revit import tbh i would run a parallel model in 3d max with simplified elements from the revit file that maybe get remodelled. it will really allow you to use max to its best and improve you images out of sight imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevitGary Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Have you tried this workflow ? I could not agree less with what you are saying. If you need to make changes make changes to the revit model. I have no problems linking very large complex Revit models into Max. A model as simple as the one shown is not problem at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nic H Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Yep Iv tried using revit models - waste of time imo just too many objects to work with in a fast manner - especially if you have to animate it in some way. adding detail or changing say window sizes or object ID's would be difficult. However if it works for you and you can make good images working that way then good for you. I suppose you aren't called RevitGary for nothing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starslicer Posted August 13, 2012 Author Share Posted August 13, 2012 Well, I got the Powerpoint part of the project done. Its going to be pretty lame by your guys standards but for a class full of people who know next to nothing about this industry its got "pretty slides". http://www.maplemediastudio.com/Williams, Jamie - Capstone Powerpoint.ppsx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starslicer Posted August 20, 2012 Author Share Posted August 20, 2012 Now, I am a youtube star. Professor wanted us to hand it in her as a youtube link for some reason... Thanks for all your assistance guys. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0FIo5-J_z8&feature=youtu.be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starslicer Posted August 24, 2012 Author Share Posted August 24, 2012 (edited) So I added a Zdepth rendering pass and tried to add some depth to my image since that is one of the complaints I got. Do you guys think it looks better compared to the old one? http://www.maplemediastudio.com/images/eastwash20.jpg http://www.maplemediastudio.com/images/eastwash19.jpg Edited August 24, 2012 by starslicer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xEndlessxUrbiax Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 This is a pretty interesting topic, too bad it seems like your research is over. I work at an architecture firm, and would still like to share our workflow for whoever else is interested. -Hand Sketches = programming, bubble diagrams, spacial relationship, adjacencies -Sketchup = massing options, 3d adjacencies, diagrams to show clients -AutoCAD = Schematic Design Drawings in conjunction with Sketchup model updated at major design changes. 3ds Max rendering at the end of this stage using SU model -Design Development, same as previous but now we work out the details. -Construction Documents, same as previous but more emphasis on AutoCAD construction Drawings. -Physical model if there is time (unfortunately we rarely use physical models anymore because it's much easier to manipulate masses inside Sketchup) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hockley91 Posted September 7, 2012 Share Posted September 7, 2012 I think all of the above cases are a good example of how everyone works differently. I think in any case we need to be adaptable to any given situation and have multiple workflows. Even if you have developed a standard it will only work for you in the office you work in, or for projects you are involved in from beginning to end. All the Project Managers at our office work differently. Some start in CAD, some start by hand, some do both, some start in Revit, some only have a Sketchup model to work with. I get projects handed to me at different stages of development and quality so I have to be flexible and do what works best for me. If we have a 2D Autocad project in front of me, I'll pretty much stay in CAD and model in CAD since all the info is in front of me and it makes no sense to bring it into Revit if the Team isn't going to utilize it. I can model faster for a dumb model vs. an information rich model. Our Revit projects I revise in Revit as much as I can. I clean up things and fix textures and things and I just bring that into 3DS Max. Most of the time things work well. But, I've had to go into the model and detail even more to show things that the Revit model can't show like Standing Seam's and complex joints and reveals. Again, I've had to figure out these workflows depending on what project and person I'm working on. Crazy stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starslicer Posted January 11, 2013 Author Share Posted January 11, 2013 Yeah the projects over, I got an A. Feel free to keep talking though, this is a very good subject to share information on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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