Turn Around Time - Question - Need Help...

[Wreck]

I work for a Interior Design firm, and my job covers a lot of media. I do mood boards, elevation design, our video production, and our 3D visualizations.

 

I'm a 1 man team as far as our 3D work goes, and I work everything off of one system (modeling\rendering\post).

 

I usually am given a lot of fast projects to do. For instance, I was working with other interior designers that were constantly making changes, revisions, etc, but I got this project finished in 5 days time from start to finish.

 

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/457718_10150741348304860_642161761_o.jpg

 

Usually if I was given clear direction, I could pull this render completely off in 2 days. From the ground up. (Modeling \ Materials \ Lighting \ Rendering \ Post).

 

Is this a good turn around time or am I on the slow side? Also, can I get some comments or tips on lighting and rendering quality?

 

This project I was straight out of Revit so I didn't have to model it. I did materials, lit it, rendered it, and did post work on it in one day.

 

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/s720x720/404173_10150480449729860_1550557168_n.jpg

 

This project I modeled, did materials, lit and rendered in 1.5 days.

 

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/s720x720/430609_10150650846114860_106515350_n.jpg

 

 

Basically, I'm asking because I was given my review at work today, and was told that compared to other companies, my "final product" isn't as polished and I need to look up better ways to render, and that my "turn around" time is slow. I'm one guy turning multiples of these out a week so I'm burnt out and need some guidance or some advice.

 

Thanks....

[Scott Schroeder]

Pack up your desk and go work for those other companies. Tell them to see how fast they can turn renders around without you, and walk out the door. You are not a robot. You do not live to work. You are a human being that works to live.

 

For such a short timeline, your quality is quite outstanding. What kills a bit of the quality is your people and other entourage, as in the first image. They just don't match the scene and some are clearly sunlit. Basically anything that is an image that you've added detracts from the quality. Your overall modeling and lighting looks solid, again for such a short deadline you really can't do much more.

 

What are they comparing you to? Did they give you specifics? If they are looking at the higher end studios, the turn around time is usually weeks if not month(s). Add on top of that, they have very little patience and wiggle room for changes left and right.

[John Dollus]

If you are a one man dept, on what is your reviewer basing the perceived lack of proper turnaround?

Edited September 6, 2012 by John Dollus

[heni30]

I think they are crazy. It seems like they don't understand the process and how long it takes. They want you to do things faster and yet be of a higher quality; they don't realize that these two things are inversely proportional. It's like a guaranteed failure situation. The stress isn't worth it.

 

I would start looking around for something else; especially with all of the experience you've picked up. I think they're gonna miss you when you're gone.

 

As far as the interior goes, there are some things you need to work on. I think the lighting is a little uneven and blotchy which is distracting as far as understanding the entire space. Also the people are unevenly lit. I also don't think the view angle is working - a little too extreme.

 

Also working fast all the time is going to lead to developing sloppy habits.

Edited September 6, 2012 by heni30

[Wreck]

I've been with the company for 6 years. Over the past 2 years things have escalated in the multimedia group and I've gone from full time 3D Viz to 50% visualization work and 50% video production. Pretty much 90% of the render jobs that come in the door land on my desk with either a 3 day deadline or a 1 day deadline.

 

The first image I posted for instance, they came to me with a ground plan and said they needed to get this render done for a meeting 3 days from then. So I had a plan, no elevations, no other interior details except a board of mood textures and sample images. I modeled for 1.5 days while new elevations were popping up on the server and I was constantly revising and building as they were changing\revising themselves in CAD. Very sloppy.

 

They changed lighting on me twice, all the furniture swapped out twice, and so over-all, I didn't get it finished until the following Tuesday. By the time that project was done, it was so photo-shopped that I was even adding in lighting and fake mood elements to get done what I didn't have time to test in Max.

 

I try to explain the technical side and they all go blank in the face, and just say "You always get it done."

 

I don't know the normals of how this works in other companies though because I haven't worked in any other companies that do this work, and since I work alone, I don't have input from others such as yourselves first hand. I really appreciate the replies.

 

For my sake, could someone give me some kind of standard of time?

 

Like a ground up interior full restaurant rendering assuming I have all the material I need in front of me. Modelling, Texturing, Lighting, Post. What is the turn around time on this in a company in the US or overseas on average?

 

Another thing they brought up in the review is that I rendered a Revit model in 1 day and yet when I'm given a 3D rendering project to do from the ground up, it takes me 3 days. The MAJORITY of the renders I do don't even have plans, or elevations. They toss a picture from a magazine at me or a rough sketch drawing and go "Render this on this street corner (hands me an address) And put in some nice high end retail in the bottom , sort of like that other project we did once." It's a stressful nightmare most of the time and a lot of chop shop work. I told him "That Revit model you gave me. How much modeling time was put into by your architects?" My manager said "2-3 weeks" I said "Well you never give me 2-3 weeks to model a building, I have to model, texture, render and post in 3 days total. I can't compare most of these jobs to a rendering I did for a building that had 2-3 weeks of modeling detail put into it."

 

He shook his head and said "other companies do it. You need to research out there and find out a way to be more productive."

 

He didn't understand what I had just said, or he didn't want to.

 

As far as who he compared me to, he reverenced a company in New York here:

 

http://www.nyarchitecturalrenderings.com/3d-renderings/portfolio

[Nic H]

you employer sounds like a total idiot....

leave them - copy the library and delete the server on the way out

 

your work is pretty good for those turn around times imo.

[marius e]

Pack up and leave...no appriciation there...not worth it, they know they are screwing you and they DONT CARE.

[AubreyM]

I hear your frustration and feel bad for you. Sorry to say that your employer is an idiot that has no clue and I doubt things are going to change. I would start looking for another job as it sounds like they are either setting you up to justify a wage cut or demote you in some way. What they are asking you to do is totally unreasonable. There is no way that any of the renders on the company website that you posted would have been done in less than a week by one person. Your company is trying to get a Rolls Royce for the price of a Hyundai and it doesn't work that way.

 

No one is answering your question about standard times because there is no such thing as a "standard". There are too many variables and each project is different. Depending on LOD and based on one image I would say 3 -5 days for your restaurant scenario.

 

Nothing that we say is going to change your employers mind, it really doesn't sound like some one who listens to reason.

My advice is to get out of that company while you still enjoy doing 3d and archviz, don't burn yourself out for someone who doesn't appreciate your efforts.

 

Good luck Joseph.

[Wreck]

Thanks everyone. I appreciate the replies. It's helped.

[salvador]

Ok, here's my two cents:

 

1. You are (half the time) a mirror to me. I undergo situations like this many times (not all the time though; sad but ture).

2. I think the resaturant lacked more in the workflow than in your capacities. You could've done different in the same amount of time with a different apporach.

3. I agree with all: Your boss s**ks. I did a similar render some time ago and it took me about 4 days to get it done and that, was under pressure. And they settled for it becuase it was above acceptable; yet, it didn't get excellent. So, like in my case, colaborators are not sensitive at all with what it takes to come up with good work. I used to tell them "if I don't set the deadline myself I don't guarantee I'll finish on time". It's like my friend and outstanding CG artist Griaffe once tolde me: "doing a good render is like cooking a turkey, it's got to have it right time; it won't be good neither undercooked or overdone; if you want it fast, you can't expect it to come out tasty". I'm not in the position to tell you to walk out of there becuase I don't know your personal status /details, maybe you really need the job or the pay is damn good but if you can do it somewhere else, I for one would go. . .

 

Good luck !

[Scott Schroeder]

Maybe Nils from Neoscape, he frequents this board so maybe he'll pop in on this discussion, can give you some guidelines from how they do things.

 

From my personal experience and to mimic what Aubrey said, there really is no perfect standard. This is the production triangle. You have Cost, Time, Quality; and you can only choose two.

 

When I worked at a place that had a 12 hour start to finish (modeling through post production) product (they were exterior elevations), it was highly controlled. There were absolute standards and an absolute process. No deviations were allowed. No extra client requests were allowed, changes meant the deadline was pushed back. So the fast turn around time can be done with fairly good quality if the project scope remains sealed and protected.

 

At that same place, your average interior rendering/animation job was typically around a week for everything. The larger site projects were broken up into teams of 2-3 who typically had 1-2 weeks, maybe more per person.

 

Where I work now, I sort of operate as a one man person within the team of visualizers. We each are independent operators mostly, but our average turn around is still at least 2-3 weeks for the larger projects. I deal with a lot more changes than where I used to work, simply due to where I reside in the visualization process. I worked for an arch viz firm who usually got the projects after the designs had been fully approved. I now work for an architect who is in the process of approving designs, so changes are known to happen constantly.

 

I would seriously consider quitting where you work. It sounds like despite giving them 6 years of your life, you are treated as scum. Unless they are paying with with briefcases full of cash, and even that's still not a great reason to stay, you need to leave them cold. No 2 week notice, no nothing. Find a new job on the side, then one day just don't show up. Maybe send them a very cold and impersonal email which tells them where to cram their deadline. Your boss would NEVER work on a deadline like he gives you without some serious bitching, so why should you have to put up with it? Don't EVER let them try to justify working you like a slave. Stand up for your right not to be treated as a mindless robot.

[salvador]

. . . Maybe send them a very cold and impersonal email which tells them where to cram their deadline. . .

 

LOL (big time)

[Tommy L]

I think a practical way to educate your boss on industry standards is to give him a link to this thread. Of course there is always the chance that your boss will have this attitude towards performance whatever the performance, as in 'there's always room for improvement'.

In your shoes I'd play hardball and ask for a raise or a new employee to share the workload, if you're confident enough you could make it an ultimatum but you'd need a plan B in that case.. See if they want to put their money where their mouth is.

Im in a different position as Im self employed, but the old adage: "quick/good/cheap, choose two" definitely applies here.

[Wreck]

I'm taking it up with one of the partners at our firm. I'll see what a good talk with him does. Il'll post after that talk and let you know what happens. I'm fed up today to no end. Thank God the day is almost over.

[Nils Norgren]

Good thread, we are getting back to the days of the discussions of, freelance, arch vis studio, or internal at a design firm (in this case an Interior Design firm). I would say that the comment about speed or time per image is totally absurd, the quality is a more nuanced discussion.

 

Scott hit it on the nail when he talked about the process, scope and request having a huge bearing on the outcome and time needed. I would say that if you think that you can get another job you should consider it, as the respect for your value is lacking at your current post.

 

The fact that the comments were made during a review I suspect there was an ulterior motive, like denying a raise, looking for a way to chop you down, or a manager who has self esteem problems and has trouble giving praise.

 

I would like to address the larger issue of respect for the skill-set/role. Now that the economy is improving we can look at the value of the artist in that role inside a firm. Back when I was starting out the term often used was "CAD-monkey" which clearly is meant to put the entry-level (or computer operating) employee in a catagory to be treated with some contempt.

 

There are firms where the arch-vis specialists get treated well and compensated fairly, I suspect these are the exception more than the rule, although it seems to be better these days. The fact is that many architects and designers seem to think that everyone beneath them should be expected to jump at the chance to work long hours, take changes, criticism and general harassment with a smile on their face.

 

On the other hand I know an owner of another Arch-Vis studio (not Neoscape) who said NO client is work staying up all night for. He would never agree to if for himself or one of his employees.

 

Jobs at Arch-Vis studios are getting more plentiful I would urge you to consider looking down that route. The environment is much more conducive to learning, stretching artistic horizons, and being respected for good work.

 

I am somewhat biased on this point however.

 

Hope this helps, I suspect that when you talk to the partner you will either be told your manager is just trying to motivate you, or he (or she) is just being themselves (difficult). Either way, if the partner doesn't try to make you feel better, you should definitely be looking somewhere else, you are not getting the respect you deserve, and they seem to be taking advantage of you.

 

Nils Norgren - Neoscape

[Justin Hunt]

It also sounds as though you are being expected to be a designer on top of doing the 3d's. Whilst we need our design hats on to interpret the information given and fill in the gaps where needed, it is an other matter when there are more gaps than not. This also sounds like the designers are not doing their part as it it easier for them to say "Make something" rather than actually doing it themselves.

 

Being in house means you are part of the design team and as such expect design changes. It also means that you tend to be at the end part of the process and that means tighter than ideal deadlines.

 

In support of what the others are saying, I'd say try educate your boss of the situation. Explain the process and factors affecting the time it takes to do things. Highlight the fact you are not given sufficient information to start with and reiterate that if you are given proper information then it is possible to have fast turn arounds as you can focus on doing your job and not everyone elses as well.

 

A while ago (in a previous job) the architects became more and more lazy and practically stopped designing because the 3D team was doing such a good job of filling in the gaps. As time went on we started struggling meeting deadlines as we were now doing design as well as 3D. We brought this up with the architects, but it didn't change a thing. We then brought it up with the partners who told us to fail a couple of times. This did the trick, suddenly projects were not being finished and were in jeopardy of being lost. The architects we shocked into action and had to start doing their jobs. Deadlines were being met and the quality and speed of the 3D's went up as we could concentrate on our jobs.

[Bruce Hart]

Joseph - I hear you man.

 

I started at my firm in 2003 as the only in-house person, and really didn't have much idea about the process in other places. I just muddled through as best I could and thankfully still going. After a while I realised an unfortunate universal truth. Designers the world over will always want to make changes. They will keep making changes up until the deadline leaving people like you and me trying to do some "photoshop" work to finish the thing off and go home at some stupid hour.

 

I think you are doing a great job under the circumstances. While I have similar problems to you, fortunately I work in a place where generally the management staff do appreciate the effort. Not long after I started in house we gained some talented 3D people, and having others to bounce ideas off is certainly beneficial.

 

A few years ago I was invited to give a talk at a local college that offers an Arch Viz course. The graphic attached was used to explain the differences between an Architecture in-house 3D person and someone in a visualization studio. Essentially it shows how (generally) viz studios start work on finished design models and generate a lot of polished marketing imagery, while an architectural 3D person does less marketing stuff, but assists in the design process along the way with sometimes minimal information (that's what happens to me anyway). In this scenario, it is difficult to achieve a polished level that equates to what a viz studio can put out. Sadly the comparison will still be made on the output work by people like your boss, who do not understand the circumstances under which the work is produced.

 

As mentioned by others - you should show this thread to your boss.

[Wreck]

Bruce, Justin,

 

We are a heavy design firm. You're both right. I'm the only one here and have been for the 6 years, with promises every year of hiring some support for my job (someone to bounce ideas off like you said, Bruce).

 

For instance, 5 weeks ago we got the job for the Donald Trump project for the Old Post Office in DC. I was told we had a rush render project (just like all the others here) and that the meeting was Tuesday in NY. I went to DC, photographed the site, surveyed the site, then did image searches and research on Trump design and other hotel design that was similar to the architecture of the Old Post Office, and in 2 days I had to design, model, texture, render and post edit 1 rendering of what our company had envisioned for stage 1.

 

I got it finished completely in time, and this included all the design work as well, but it was so rushed that it was a chaotic mess in a 2 day time limit. I had to shut all the designers out that wanted to give input because they were changing drastic, major pieces of the project literally minutes from print time. And of course they're always saying things like "Well can't you just do that real fast? Doesn't it just render and fall right into the picture?"

 

These are people that have been educated but refused to listen over 6 years of working directly with me on these projects. They still display the text book ignorance of designers vs me.

 

The partner I'm going to talk with is out of town until next Thursday so I'll find out what we can do about this going forward.

[salvador]

Couldn't agree more. Some time ago, I decided that for every job I'd set the rules first. If they want me to fill some design stage I adjust timimg and fees accordingly. Otherwise the client (when it's a fellow architect or designer) is compelled to provide all the detail stuff, from the ground up to the furniture, light fixtures etc. And yes, this has proven to be an improvement in times and quality. (Also because I'm so self-critic that it takes me a lot of time to decide about the perfect props for the scene).

[Justin Hunt]

Another thing to consider is that not every job needs to be polished off to the n'th degree. Often its just no appropriate.

[Nils Norgren]

And of course they're always saying things like "Well can't you just do that real fast? Doesn't it just render and fall right into the picture?"

 

One thing that I would strongly encourage everyone to do when they get the chance is make a client who is requesting changes, sit through the change process, there is the urge to mock-up the change and then after they leave, go back and do it correctly. This has the effect of misinforming the person making the change,when they sit through all the consequences of the change, they respect the process, and the change is made correctly and doesn't require more precious time, WIN-WIN.

 

It can be tough to pull this off, but when you can, it is very effective at making the point.

 

-Nils

[Chris MacDonald]

I work for an architectural practice in a team of 3x 3D people, though we (generally speaking) undertake projects on an individual basis and see it through from start to finish; the only time this changes is when it is a very large project, or perhaps includes animation, etc.

 

I totally feel for you and agree with many of the other sentiments that have been voiced in the thread. I too have to deal with projects that are still in the process of being designed and it eventually got to a point where the 3D team met with the directors and said enough is enough; you can't have photo-real unless the design is frozen. You can have anything else you want, just not photoreal. With that our workload suddenly got a lot more realistic and we have been able to start turning projects round very quickly now and make the 3D side of the business properly profitable... It was always seen as an "add on", to impress clients, etc. Naturally some projects simply need photo-realistic images, but the vast majority don't.

 

Our projects range from anything from a half day through to 4 weeks - it really does depend on the size of the project, how likely it is that there will be changes, and what the final quality needs to be. By the sounds of it your employer simply doesn't want to know about anything you tell him/her; I'd definitely start looking for work elsewhere.

 

I think part of the problem you're facing is that your one-man-band-work is being compared to that of top end viz studios that are provided with full plans/elevations and a decent brief, with a team of staff to take care of it. I think they will eventually learn what a realistic timescale is if you leave and they have to find others to fill your place that you have in fact done some great work given the turn-around time. But I honestly think that is what it will take for them to learn, from what you've told us.

[hockley91]

Your work looks great and I'm amazed at the time that you do it in. I can't believe they gave you a review like that. Are they not happy with your work? Crazy...