Jeff Mottle Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Hi everyone, I'm working on a few things behind the scenes for the industry that somewhat relate to industry associations. I know that groups like the ASAI, NYSR, SAI etc exist, but their memberships are low and only a very small few benefit from their affiliation with these groups. Don't get me wrong, they do good things, but I've been pondering what is missing. None of these groups have memberships more than a few hundred yet there are literally hundreds of thousands of professionals in this industry. So I wanted to pose the questions to you. What would make you want to join an industry association? Not a labor union, but an association of professionals, students, academics etc. with the goal of bettering the industry and providing tangible benefits to its members. If there were no limitations, what would get you excited and what would you like to see? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Warner Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Maybe the way to start the conversation would be to begin with an existing organization that people are part of, and see what they get out of it. Obviously, with our profession the easy one would be the AIA. Architects don't have to be members, but the vast majority in the US are. So, why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichBenson Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 The only thing I would like to see is one where you have to be good to join, good work and good service. Most of the others allow anyone on there so long as you have created an image of a building, what kudos do you get from that? You need something which is a real mark of quality and you can proudly wear that badge and even use it to win work. I would almost say that you should have client recommendations saying that you offer a good service as well as a good quality product. If you get crap or you get sloppy then you get removed. Integrity and standards. pikcells Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mottle Posted September 13, 2012 Author Share Posted September 13, 2012 Yes agreed. I know a number of associations like the Nikon Professionals group that require you to be nominated by at least 2 other members before you can be admitted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dollus Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) AIA is a lobbying organization so there is representation on a political level to benefit the industry. They are also the sole provider of legal documents required to enagage in business activity and while you don't have to be a member to purchase the forms, you do get a discount that 'may' payoff: http://blog.buildllc.com/2008/05/the-aia-to-join-or-not/ The AIA also has offices throughout the US so you can attend local mtgs/committees to network. Again, you don't have to be a member to participate in the meetings. The meetings are designed to work as a funnel for business opportunities between the architects and various vendors who rely on the architects to use their products. I've had very limited success in actually converting those direct contacts over to paying clients. CGsociety membership offers discounts on books published through partnerships as well as online classes and some discounts for partner services. If you take a couple classes per year, that pays for the membership but for those who don't find the online classes relevant, finding benefit would be more challenging. Edited September 13, 2012 by John Dollus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Hunt Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 I must say I am reading a book that is set in the mid 1800's England where belonging to a Club was all important to get ahead in the social ladder. I had to smile when I first read the post as I got this image of a gentleman's club, where you go to sit around sipping fine whiskey, smoking cigars in dark moody rooms, discussing dodgy deals. Maybe I dont understand these associations but what more would you get/ benefit from these that we dont already get from social media, other than a Noddy Badge to say I am a member? Are clients really that concerned if you are a member of some association that they have never heard of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mottle Posted September 13, 2012 Author Share Posted September 13, 2012 Sweet, I'd join one of those clubs Here are a few things I think an association could do. Not saying they are all necessary, but a list off the top of my head: - advocate for the industry - establish professional standards (codes of conduct, contracts) - lobby copyright issues, provide guidance on copyright issues - handle or provide guidance with contact disputes - salary and industry surveys - events (conferences, local chapters) - education (external training and advising schools on what should be taught) - business consulting (how to grow and operate your business) - industry vendor discounts - publishing works in a publication - art gallery showings sponsored/organized by the group I'm sure there is a lot more, but a few things to further the conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Schroeder Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 If we could splinter off the ASIA that would not be so bad. They provide some sort of health insurance to it's members, so those of us who freelance have a decent and affordable potential insurance plan. I've never used their plan, but I know they offer it. So I can't really say for certain how well it really works. It's certainly something I've never seen a club offer before. I also like the idea of something like a certified freelance thingy. I know it's not the most descriptive but it would be something were clients could go, and you as a freelancer could show a potential client, that you are indeed legit. That you are doing to do what you say you will do and you will deliver on time. Much of the things that really plague the start-up freelancer who is talented and hard working, but just doesn't have the history for a client to feel fully safe. It would also be nice for the club to provide help in dealing with getting client payments and other sticky legal issues. Maybe we should hire Moose and Rocco to go help the Judge find his checkbook or partner up with SAMCRO, I don't know. The biggest problem is getting the benefits out to the members. When I lived near LA it was great with the various local industry clubs and meet-ups. When I moved back to the sticks of Indiana it was a little more difficult. Chicago and Indy were close, but it wasn't in my backyard like LA and San Diego were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Jeff do you remember this thread; it's about the same topic and there's a lot of good opinions in it. http://forums.cgarchitect.com/29032-asai.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mottle Posted September 14, 2012 Author Share Posted September 14, 2012 Ahh, thanks for the reminder. Forgot about this one. My memory is getting worse by the day. I'm surprised I still remember my own name sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichBenson Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 I must say I am reading a book that is set in the mid 1800's England where belonging to a Club was all important to get ahead in the social ladder. I had to smile when I first read the post as I got this image of a gentleman's club, where you go to sit around sipping fine whiskey, smoking cigars in dark moody rooms, discussing dodgy deals. Maybe I dont understand these associations but what more would you get/ benefit from these that we dont already get from social media, other than a Noddy Badge to say I am a member? Are clients really that concerned if you are a member of some association that they have never heard of? Ha ha, yeh your right. If your are good then word gets around anyway and vice versa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Denby Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Sweet, I'd join one of those clubs Here are a few things I think an association could do. Not saying they are all necessary, but a list off the top of my head: - advocate for the industry - establish professional standards (codes of conduct, contracts) - lobby copyright issues, provide guidance on copyright issues - handle or provide guidance with contact disputes - salary and industry surveys - events (conferences, local chapters) - education (external training and advising schools on what should be taught) - business consulting (how to grow and operate your business) - industry vendor discounts - publishing works in a publication - art gallery showings sponsored/organized by the group I'm sure there is a lot more, but a few things to further the conversation. Sounds like the SAI to be honest, who do actually only accept 'good' work. You're right though, member numbers are low and have dropped generally over the last few years coinciding with t'internet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mottle Posted September 14, 2012 Author Share Posted September 14, 2012 Iain, do you think it's really only been the internet that has reduced the numbers or is there not just not enough benefit or interest in the current benefits for members? I imagine It's somewhat of a chicken/egg situation as to really do big things you need money, which of course requires members. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of why associations within our field can't grow to where I think they should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iain Denby Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Jeff I think the drop in membership originally was that the 'new generation' adapted to the digital world and found every benefit they could from sites like yours - why then pay £90 to join another group. Of course, we have many many digital illustrators in our membership now. Also, I think ptential members generally look for things that will benefit them personally and financially. The SAI is about promoting the profession as a whole not individuals. So, if they don't see tangible results for them, why pay an association £90? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mottle Posted September 14, 2012 Author Share Posted September 14, 2012 I think the ASAI's transition was equally bumpy from traditional to digital, but I don't think they fared quite as well as the SAI. I think it's pretty natural that people will want to see tangible personal benefits, through the non-tangible stuff is equally important. Human nature I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mottle Posted September 14, 2012 Author Share Posted September 14, 2012 Jeff do you remember this thread; it's about the same topic and there's a lot of good opinions in it. http://forums.cgarchitect.com/29032-asai.html Re-read through that thread. I forgot this was the one where I got so many people to volunteer their time. I certainly did not forget that part. I handed all of those names over to the ASAI, basically on a silver platter, and virtual nothing was done with it. Irritating to say the least. I tried to help them and they dropped the ball. I've tried to help on other occasions as well and it certainly came off as falling on deaf ears. I want the ASAI to work, but it's not. This is sort of what this thread is spawning from. I don't know where it will go exactly, but I am working on something that may or may not evolve into a larger industry organization. Right now it's more inward focused among a smaller group of people. It's been going on behind the scenes on an off since 2008, so we'll see where it goes. Another meeting is happening in November, so I will know more after the renewed discussions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy L Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 The best feature of the http://www.asai.org/ is the ability to find an illustrator by location. So if you're an architect in Chicago and you want to use someone local you just search and up the pop. However, how many architects know that? When I was a paying member I got one inquiry through the website listings in 2 years. Better than none, but I am sure the ASAI could have done a better job of promoting their listings, its such a powerful resource as there are not really any other industry listings like it (for the USA). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timillustrator Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 I think there is equally a lack of knowledge, how many members of CGArchitect know about the ASAI or SAI? I teach yr 6 architecture students and some are pretty good illustrators and have a reasonable degree of skill, but none seem to have heard of SAI or even CGArchitect. Perhaps younger members of the profession do not see illustration/vizualisation as a viable career even though for many it is the most exciting or interesting part of what they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mottle Posted September 15, 2012 Author Share Posted September 15, 2012 I'd hypothesize a few things: These students are pretty disengaged from the online community surrounding 3d or as you say not thinking of it as more than one tiny step towards getting their architecture degree which is foremost on their mind. They are lucky to have a prof to inform them though All you have to do is search for things like architecture 3d, visualization, illustration and CGarchitect shows up on the first page of the search results. And if they can't find, or aren't interested to find, out more about architectural visualization then they are even less likely to find out about the ASAI etc. Although if you type in architectural illustrator the ASAI is #1 on page 1. Regardless you are correct, CGarchitect has been around for 11 years and I've always said we have likely only captured at most 20% of the industry. I think the reason is that the vast majority just don't look at visualization as something they would look into further. In some ways using CG is becoming like using a pencil. When was the last time you researched a forum or site on pencils. The other reason is that like any industry most people look at work as a means to pay the bills and to live, not a passion. For the most part I'd speculate only those who really love the industry and the work, spend the time to participate in online communities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter M. Gruhn Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 > establish professional standards (codes of conduct, contracts) I don't see how paying somebody money to tell me that I have to behave the way somebody else thinks I should in order to be considered "professional" helps me. First you get people telling you "you shouldn't steal". Then later you get people telling you that you have to use green monitors, and "give back" 2% to "community service." The first batch is obvious an not special to the industry; the second batch isn't true. > lobby copyright issues, provide guidance on copyright issues The biggest reason for me to not join a group. I never support their lobbying issue. I don't want to feel professionally obligated to provide funding to people who will work against my interests. "But we're all the same!" Yeah, sure. "You're old, you must support my agenda." "You're ethnicity, you must support my agenda." "You're nominally in the same profession I am, you must support my agenda." No, I don't. AND I wouldn't support the way you promote it even if I did support your nominal agenda. Take copyright issues for instance - there are (at least) two avidly supported, completely opposed, arguments regarding copyright in the USA (alone) today. How can we be sure that we lobby for the right one? Is the "right" one for the membership the moral one? Is spending everybody's money lobbying for the option 51% of the membership (or rather 51% of the board) likes the right thing to do? Next thing you know, somebody is going to say I need to be a licensed renderizer in order to get paid to renderize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Hunt Posted September 15, 2012 Share Posted September 15, 2012 In certain ways I tend to agree, my wife is a radiographer, by law she has to be registered mainly to protect the patients. All good. But because each state handles their own registrations they all have different rules and fees, and you cant transfer your registration from one state to an other. Each year the fees go up , one year it went you $100, with no justification. Lobbing issues is so localized , both by country and state that unless you have a local chapter that is one the ball it ends up being a bunch of committees who dream up issues just to justify their existence, and jack up membership fees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mottle Posted September 16, 2012 Author Share Posted September 16, 2012 ok, so to turn this thread around, rather than focusing on what an organization should not be, what should it be if an ideal organization existed, or is the idea of an organization simply antiquated and of no use to our industry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dollus Posted September 17, 2012 Share Posted September 17, 2012 We did try connecting and working something out with ASAI. There was virtually no traffic at all from the main page directed here for an ongoing discussion and interest from the membership was rather limited to only a handful as I recall. Gave it a go but without groundswell support, there was no chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mottle Posted September 17, 2012 Author Share Posted September 17, 2012 Yes, but there were something like 30 people willing to become members and volunteer time over a year. I don't think that was ever leveraged? I know the forum think never took off but that was another project. I also remember the three of us (Jane, You, Me) pitching a new model at the conference in Miami which I thought was well received, but that seemed to go nowhere either. Meanwhile the organization is teetering on the edge of bankruptcy every year. Something has to change before they fall over the edge. But maybe organizations like this are on the verge of going extinct anyway, maybe there is simply no interest in them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dollus Posted September 18, 2012 Share Posted September 18, 2012 Agreed. Striving for relevance is the challenge. We had a pretty positive meeting in our small group but getting the discussion tabled during the larger official meeting was rather disappointing. I just sent you a message with a much longer response. It grew lengthy and I thought I would spare this thread the screen space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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