Is it wise to be giving tips and info to members who are our competition overseas???

[heni30]

A while back I sent a PM to a prominent UK CGA member saying - "Great looking glass - how did you do that?" He replied " I'd rather not give that information out."

 

Some years back I was working for an illustrator and we had one of the biggest firms here in Atlanta as our client. Today that firm is getting all their renderings done in China for about 30 - 40% less that what they were paying here in the US. As far as communication goes they have Chinese architects that can talk to the renderers so that there are no misunderstandings. They also can get renderings at the last minute with no problems.

 

My question is that isn't it kind of obviously dumb to be giving help to overseas CGA members who might be poised to be our competition, who undercut us and take work away? And I'm talking about the forum policy, not necessarily on a personal level.

 

It's a very sticky situation because ideally we should be able to exchange information freely and learn from each other but if my giving you information is going to harm me in the long run, what do you do?

 

This is nothing personal at all - just a harsh reality.

 

I would have no problem at all if the pricing were the same as here in the US.

 

What are your thoughts on this?

Edited September 14, 2012 by heni30

[sukardiismail]

I suppose it all comes down to individual's business strategy.

 

For example, Apple hardly gives any of its technology away but Pixar routinely releases their technology to the community.

 

You can do business by keeping everything secret and proprietary (think of coca-cola, oracle). You can also do business based on sharing of information - eg. Google shares a lot of information gathered from adwords even if you are not a paying customer.

 

It is your choice but you cannot tell other people what to do.

 

That's my two cents.

[Nic H]

I disagree with the sentiment that sharing is giving your competition a leg up. There are no real 'secrets' in architectural visualization these days. The sheer amount of tutorials and help you can get online covering every imaginable aspect of 'computer graphics' is really quite remarkable and is a great thing.

 

It only serves to push forward quality and learning making the industry stronger and of higher quality. I would share pretty much any knowledge I had and would like to think others would do the same for me (of course it depends a bit of whether I know or respect them) Sharing information and techniques puts you in a position of respect and authority (look at Peter Guthrie and Bertrand Benoit) and I imagine would open up opportunities.

 

Whoever didn't want to give you 'architectural glass' tips had their reasons but I don't think sharing things negatively impact on us at all. The work still needs to be done and the trial and error process gone through even when following a tutorial or tip. I would be more concerned with improving your work with all the available resources out there and hopefully one day when someone asks you for a tip it will go both ways!

 

(unless its a PM asking 'excuse me sir plz give me the 3d models and tips for sucess)

[Justin Hunt]

I agree, its one of the biggest strengths of this industry, sharing. Now its another thing to give away the recipe to your "Secret Source" that makes your imagery unique.

[Fooch]

there is no secret sauce anymore.. its just repetition and skillset used.

[Justin Hunt]

Funny , i was going to say the same thing then hanged my mind:-)

[timillustrator]

Also only a very small proportion of the global GC community uses this forum. I haven't seen many Chinese members? It's your choice whether to share or not obviously but those using this forum and sharing are better prepared and knowledgable as a result.

[Jeff Mottle]

This has been an ongoing discussion for as long as I've been in the industry. As others have alluded, it comes down to ones own personal business strategy, but I think it's non-constructive to pretend that what you do technically on an image is the formula to your success in business. If your business hinges around how well you can set up glass to render, I think you have a fundamental problem with your business plan. This business is about relationship building, trust, and quality of work. No one hires you becuase they saw and image and said "wow, these guys sure know how to make a glass shader, lets use them."

 

There are just some people and businesses that do not see this industry as anything more than something that makes them money. They really don't care about the community, making it a better industry, contributing to its growth etc. Obviously I don't subscribe to that philosophy or I would not run CGarchitect, so I do find it sad when people take this stance.

[jackbird]

The way I see it, I got the equivalent of a Masters' degree in architectural visualization from The Internet (mostly the old Discreet webboard) in exchange for nothing more than my time and a willingness to engage courteously with people. World-class experts have spent dozens of hours teaching me their secrets just because I asked.

 

I owe a karmic debt to The Internet in return, even if the people I'm helping aren't the ones who helped me. The larger questions of the geopolitics of globalization vis a vis free markets in labor vs. capital are simply beyond the scope of that debt.

 

My attempts to learn basic AutoCAD in a similar way have met with noting but dead air in return, most likely because drafting education is more heavily credentialled and the free exchange of information is not a foundational part of the community.

[Justin Hunt]

On top of that there are still relatively few formal school courses or degrees in arch viz so for many its the only realistic way of learning.

[John Dollus]

''If your business hinges around how well you can set up glass to render, I think you have a fundamental problem with your business plan''

 

quoted for agreement. I enjoy helping others so I share what I am able when I am able. It's either answering questions here or returning those orphaned shopping carts in parking lots for moral fortitude.

[Justin Hunt]

I enjoy the process of helping others, often I learn something new as well, one of the best ways to learn is to teach.

[SkylineArch]

On top of that there are still relatively few formal school courses or degrees in arch viz so for many its the only realistic way of learning.

 

Exactly Justin. The internet and forums are the best place to learn ArchViz. I started out with Architecture before the Viz part was really around. We barely got into it when I was in college, I remember doing a hidden line removal of a simple 3D kitchen model took an entire weekend to calculate. And so for me I wouldn't have learned anything if it wasn't for the great people on forums, like this and the late VizDepot.

 

Besides, there is learning a technique, or software, and then there is being able to apply that in an artistic way. As far as contracts going oversees, there are companies (clients) who look for the cheapest price, and those who look more for the better product, and that includes overall service. Over the years I weeded out the ones who only cared about the lowest price.

 

And one more point, look at the flags under everyone's screen names around here, this is an international community, so we are all helping each other, domestic or overseas.

[Yama]

Two thoughts:

 

First, I have to say that a huge part of my knowledge I got for free from friends and/or people throught the www. This is fact, and therefore I feel that it's only fair if I share my knowledge too.

 

On the other hand:

It's true that the competition with "overseas" aka Asia, got tougher trough the years. First I was not concerned, because their quality was imo not that good. But nowadays they start to get better and better, but for prices I (coming from Europe) can not compete with.

So this is scary, because I am afraid that there will be the day, somone will tell me that he can get the same or (worse) even better quality with a much lower price. So that scares me.

 

But:

This process is going on and we surely won't stop it by NOT giving any knowledge away. We can only slow it down a bit maybe......

 

So to me the answer is yes, you should give your knowledge away for free, especially when you benefit from other people doing it. You don't have to give away your deepest secrets, but some sharing is always nice.

 

According to the situation with cheap Asia, I don't really have a solution for it, I wonder what you think about it.......

[Jeff Mottle]

Like with every industry off-shoring affects some people, but most of the feedback I've been hearing in my travels is that people go that route and soon go back to their North American counterparts when they realize the communication is difficult and ends up costing them more time than using someone local.

[abhaysingh]

Like with every industry off-shoring affects some people, but most of the feedback I've been hearing in my travels is that people go that route and soon go back to their North American counterparts when they realize the communication is difficult and ends up costing them more time than using someone local.

 

Yes, you're right.Once a company approached me through freelancing website.They wanted to relocate their outsourcing from china to some other asian country because of communication issues.They said Chinese were damn fast and quality was good too but the clients used to send same changes over and over again due to communication gaps.

 

I think this question should be seen from technical point of view and not from the artistic side.I mean like you can tell people how to put lens flare in tutorials in technical way but you must have seen how some people nowadays misuse it completely.

 

i recently started my own business and though i am not getting much work i help my friends in free.At the same time who don't value my help, i don't entertain those people.

For me the old saying is true ("knowledge should be free") but i have my own dilemma,what in the case if I am working on some new innovative technology for the local market & some friends/people asks my help in the same, who are of course in the same market and running good business.What should i do then??

[sukardiismail]

If your business hinges around how well you can set up glass to render, I think you have a fundamental problem with your business plan

 

I think this nails it. You need to frame your business/ value proposition in a compelling way. This is no easy task. That is why a lot of people choose to work for others so that they don't have to think about this.

 

For example, if you can frame your value proposition as "the artist with the preferred visual style of certain demographics", then you really don't have to worry about someone else copying little bits of your techniques.

 

But then, I myself is struggling with this dilemma as much as the next person...

[coloredfloorplans]

I think we should not stop sharing info. Alot of the 3d stuff i learned i learned online and i'm really thankfull for it. But knowing the techinical part doesn't make your renders great. You need your own artistic talent to push the image from good to great, and this you can't learn from just some tutorials. I myself aren't the greatest 3d artist so my help to others isn't that big. But before my 3d time i almost spend all my time in photoshop and helped alot of people for years to teach them some skills in ps. And for me it was always fun to help them and see them using it to improve there work.

And thinking that not sharing any info anymore will stop people in like for example china in getting better won't give any results. This industry in china is so big and they got so many forums and other resources there that they don't need any of us to learn new things in 3d.

Edited November 9, 2012 by coloredfloorplans

[cg_Butler]

Most of the time people ask for things that are so minor, such as the first question suggested on this post, that I think it's a good thing to help them as much as you want to. If you look at the bigger picture of an entire image, is it really a bad thing to tell someone how you made a glass material? You're not telling them how you lit the scene, or what you did post production. And the chances of that glass looking exactly the same on a different project are minute. But if you give them the basis to start with, as long as they don't think their render will look amazing just by adding a good glass material from an image that has been created by a professional, then I think it's good to sow the seeds of knowledge. Give people a little nudge but don't give away the really important trade secrets that you've picked up along the way.

 

I've experience clients going to China and then coming back after a period of time saying they don't get the same service or end product. My personal thinking is you get what you pay for. They maybe cheaper but there is always a compromise somewhere.

[M V]

Even if we stopped sharing tips, it doesn't stop the issue at hand. Companies using illegal software and charging unfair wages to their employees and taking us all for a ride. The best thing you can do to prevent losing your job is to be a great communicator, go above and beyond for your client, and bring a talent and keen design eye to your work. The stuff that I see getting pumped out of China for cheap looks terrible. A client will see the difference. If they still don't care and go with the cheap, then you probably do not want that client anyway.

[komyali]

If you think you are the best, there is always small asian that can do better than you

I think best solution is to share knowlege, because if you are better than me, you will force me to be better and to learn more things, that is positive competition So I always tell it would be better for profesors to teach us something because they would be better also