carlotristan3d Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Those working in an archi firm, did you feel in anyway that architects tend to look down at archviz? They have more respect for technologist than visualizers. A senior colleague commented that renderers/visualizers are 'a dime a dozen' while good technologists are hard to come by. Although I spend only a 10th of my time in viz nowadays, I'm still taken aback by that comment. Any thoughts on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johannes Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 My thought on this is that you should not be taken aback by that comment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AubreyM Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Don't let it get to you, some people have the need to feel superior. Visualizers like Architects are a dime a dozen, good ones in either field are not. Besides if it was that easy to do the Architects wouldn't need us to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heni30 Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 The problem is when good enough becomes good enough. People kept saying MP3 wouldn't stick around because of the low quality. They also said that about True Type fonts compared to professional Typography. The rest is history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Mottle Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Maybe he is jealous that most visualizers earn more money than he does. Also given the fact that many visualization professionals are ALSO architects themselves, I think that makes us as a profession pretty valuable. I would not pay much attention to his comments. He clearly has no clue what he's talking about. I'd hazard a guess there are more unemployed architects right now than there are visualizers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sindala Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 That's nonsense. The process of designing a building and getting it build is a long and arduous one. We archviz guys get to be involved in the design stage and when the architects are making drawings of all the individual windows, drains and checking drawings en having meetings about minimal design changes we are already working on the next project. I went into archviz because this is the only part of the whole process that's actually fun. Let him feel important, who cares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harryhirsch Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 We all know architects, most of us are architects, some people just cant let the ego go. As for the architecture biz, one need the engineers/technologists on the project for years...from the first design license to site management...as for the renderings, in lots of offices it is the job for the interns, if one is in need for a high class pic, source it out, so the bosses wont even see the archviz people. sad but true: the bad graduates of our university and the ones who couldnt get any employment started to work in the archiviz area, the renderings are at an "5-8 out of 10" level for a cheap price. Even worse, in some offices they call the viz guys the "render monkeys" or "computer monkeys", the peopel that do not have to make decisions and have nothing to say in the project. Sorry if that sounds awful pessimistic but thats just my experience. But we all know that young architects envy Archiviz people for their graphic skills, the older architects do not really care abouty this issues, thei have to run the project or a company and have staff for everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle_ear Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 hmmm, in the early design stage/conceptual type renders, you get to make design decisions to flesh out the design, so sometimes the architects must trust/respect the renderer's craft in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M V Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 hmmm, in the early design stage/conceptual type renders, you get to make design decisions to flesh out the design, so sometimes the architects must trust/respect the renderer's craft in this case. I think this is spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 I've never felt like I was looked down on, just the opposite in fact. Jeff made a good point that generally speaking archviz people have an architecture degree and depending on your skills can make much more than an architect with the same amount of experience. Unlike architects we don't have to worry about maintain a license and we don't have to deal with all the mess that goes along with project management. Your colleague is right that visualizers are a dime a dozen but the good ones are hard to find, make sure your one of the good ones and you'll never be without a job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harryhirsch Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 First of all i did not meant any offence to anyone, architects or archiviz people. Being an architect i have worked for several companies now (Europe and Asia) And the way the project architects or directors dealt with the renderings was basicly the same. For them it is a product , a picture that shows their idea, it always had to be changed until the project architect was satisfied. Some older directors would print the rendering and draw/mark the changes in it and ask the staff to deal with the archviz company, some younger project architects would mark the changes direct into the rendering and send it back to the archviz company. And if it has to be changed 3 or 5 times, one has to change it untill the client likes it. If it goes smooth ur Archiviz company will get more work from that same major architecture office. If the archcompany felt that the work was trouble the Bosses would pick another archviz company. Lots of Architetcure offices in Europe join open competitions , there is no money in it, so they just can not spend much money for high end renderings. More and more office require a certain 3D and visualization knowledge, young archstudents know that after university they wont get a job without it, and the young students are good. So why pay 1000 USD for a single picture when you can have a student/graduate in the office the whole month for 500 USD. I do not want to sound too negativ, i think it is an advantage to know your Client and understand his situation. Why not cut a deal: the picture for half the price, if the archoffice wins the competiton then 100% etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devin Johnston Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I'd love to see the $500 rendering done by a student compared to the $1000 rendering done by a professional archviz company. My guess would be that the student rendering is pretty basic and somewhat abstract as that's usually the style that works best in a studio environment. That may be fine for some of your less sophisticated clients but clients and developers who've been in the industry and know what can be done with visualizations aren't going to accept a rendering of that quality. Let's all face it Architects as a whole are cheap, I think it's a result of the long hours spent on a project that no one will ever know or care about that makes them that way. From their point of view it makes perfect since that if they pay a company $1000 to do a rendering that company should change it indefinitely until they feel it's right. After all the architect has to constantly change their designs based on client feedback until the client is happy, the architect doesn't get any more money for this so naturally they think the archiviz company shouldn't either. This is exactly why many architectural firms are barely making it, they give so much free work away in the hopes that they will be looked upon favorably by their big client the next time they have a project. Architects fail to see that if you give the milk away for free no one will buy the cow, they have put themselves into this situation and devalued their services. They look to do the same thing to anyone that does business with them, it's a never ending cycle of the lowest bidder wins but do they really.....I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Matthews Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Having been in that situation myself (and I am an architect), I simply stated back to the Architect, "while you may think my existence as a visualizer is trivial, who else is going to make your design look good? You may be able to verbally communicate your design intent and get the client to feel warm and fuzzy, but the client signs the notice to proceed based on my "pretty picture" especially when the client does not understand the plans and elevations". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy L Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I work with a client who gave me a great example of why what we what we do: Interior design firm and architecture firm work together for 6 months to design space. At a cost of....well, picka number. Design comes to me for rendering. At a cost of around $6500 for a multitude of interior shots. End client, the man with the money, the man who makes the decision when to stop designing and start building...ONLY LOOKS AT THE RENDERINGS. Seriously, there are reams of drawings, sketches and schematics, he judges the design in its entirety on the renderings. And why shouldn't he? Its the most accessible and informative portion of the presentation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Matthews Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Exactly! Designers rely on people like us to sell their design. Not that the designer can't, it's just now the client is a lot more intelligent than before. What I mean by that is that he is aware there is this technology out there that allows him to see every aspect of the design prior to pulling the trigger on construction and in most cases prior to moving forward with contract documents. Jason Matthews Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimitris Tolios Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 ArchViz, found its place in-between the less versatile physical models and hand sketching/rendering techniques. It is one of the architecture practice's fundamental marketing and idea conveying tools. Marketing your design is the most important thing. Guys who make things "happen", usually work for "story tellers" the get the jobs by showing dreamy pictures, not the other way around. Yes, hard work is done by many to materialize something poorly "visualized", but the client buys the pretty pictures, and the biggest feat is getting the job, not materializing it. A good arch viz artist, like a good photographer, is not the A-Z of things, but surely are important. The "pretty model" is ofc an asset, but it cannot sell itself all the time, or it cannot distinguish itself from all the other pretty ones out there without some help by the experts. That's how I look at things at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlotristan3d Posted October 19, 2012 Author Share Posted October 19, 2012 I know there are lots of architects here/ or practicing architects and its interesting to get their opinion. I know my colleague was not reffering to me as I'm more of a revit guy now, but my pride as a visualizer was pinched. It's true that in our company, most renderings are done by students and interns. Are they as good as my work? I don't think so but the bosses don't see or refuse to see the difference. And if they are able to take that picture and sell it to the client, mission accomplished. They are saving a ton of money by having the students do it. On the other hand, technologists are valued because they have a far-ranging influence on the project. If they mess up, there can be costly consequences. I constructed a revit model based on wrong information, the structure is about 2" off. If that model had gone out the door, it could cost the client a fortune. I didn't have to worry about these things in visualization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xEndlessxUrbiax Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 This thread should be renamed to "ArchViz tend to look down at Architects". Here's my 2 cents. I am an architect (intern because I dont have my license yet but will have it in a year), I graduated from school in 2010 and got a job right away in the firm where I work now. When I came in, my office was outsourcing their higher end renderings to a company in India. These renderings I found were quite awful and sub-par to the renderings I had done while in school. I am lucky to be working in a medium sized firm (30-40 people) which exposes me to all aspects of the building process. On top of that, I also handle most of our renderings now along with a few other interns. We do all our renderings internally, which is way cheaper than to outsource them, but I also will admit that the renderings are at a slightly lower quality. An advantage of rendering internally is that my bosses can do last minute tweaks to the design as I am rendering so the back and forth process is much quicker and saves us money and hair. All architecture students coming out of school are learning this skill as Harry Hirsch posted earlier, which I think is putting a severe strain on your industry and helping to weed out some of the less qualified artists. That being said, I have a lot of respect for you all that decided to focus primarily on architecture visualization, but it's something I could not do because I love the other aspects of the building design/process as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimitris Tolios Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Tbh I don't see a distinction as severe as you make it sound... As you are saying yourself, more and more ppl involved in ArchViz have some short of Architecture degree and/or aspirations. It's not the random dude that out of the blue acquired access to 3DS and VRay and started rendering...which might be the case for some ArchViz studios, but in general more and more ppl with at least some training are involved. So, the issue is with architects and wanna-be in general, that want to be the authority in w/e they do... Look down on ArchViz ppl Look down on Engineers Look down on Architects when they are ArchViz Look down on other Architects just cause I know - I am M.Arch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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