cgarchitects gallery

[harryhirsch]

Dear all (Dear Jeff),

I have a question regarding the gallery. I love to see a good rendering, best motivation there is. But recently i find that people use it rather to promote themself. I mean nothing against 3 or 5 pictures of the same artist but 30 is a little much, especially if this pictures show the same or similar content (like 20 bedrooms)

To the artist(s): No offence ment, but if everbody drops in 30 pictures per day it is getting out of hands, i think a gallery should be the very best of each artist. Maybe there should be catergories (like: Meeting rooms, offices etc) or should there be a cgarchitectpage with personal space for each artist (portfolio like)???

[Chris MacDonald]

Agreed, I brought this up quite a while back here; http://forums.cgarchitect.com/70701-new-galery-section.html

[harryhirsch]

oh, sorry, havnt seen your posting (but i searched for all related)

well, since this is obviously a known issue the admin could move this to the proper place before people go like: hey double posts ..we had that topic

[Chris MacDonald]

I wasn't having a go at you, just saying you aren't the only one to feel this way. lots of us do. I literally never venture into the gallery now.

[harryhirsch]

yes, i know u didtn mean it that way, just wanted to say that i wouldnt mind if this thread would be moved somehwere.

Hmmm..maybe there are simply way to many users to solve this issue with the gallary.

well, what would help? post pictures with description (a must), keywords, if there would be the categories like: officebuilding/plaster/sundown,,,

it would be easier to find stuff. A limit would do for now: lets say 3 pics per project, 5 projects per user.

[Ismael]

I doubt CG Architect will start per-project managing! Guidelines and rules: http://forums.cgarchitect.com/4587-forum-rules-user-agreement.html

A guideline there states,

"Please do not post your entire portfolio in-line to the forum. If you would like to receive critiques, either post a few images or post one link to your website."

 

Of course it is a guideline only.

[salvador]

Agreed. I'd rather see someone's top 5 with some info about each work than the full thing. Of course, there are some artists whose full work is worth seeing.

[Jeff Mottle]

Nothing has really changed in the way it works other than it does not allow people to post multiple images to one upload. The system from its inception was not really designed to take that into consideration as the hope was that people would only post their best work, not upload everything they've ever done. We've implemented filters to quickly and easily allow you to just look at the most viewed, most commented, liked images so in a way it's easier to comment on good images and seek the good images out. The old forum mechanism was very clunky in how it worked as it was a gallery embedded into a forum rather than a gallery designed to be a gallery.

 

A bit confused why the new gallery does not work, volume of posts aside, as it is functionally much easier to use and access content if you take a few seconds to sort the content and LIKE content or post on content you think is deserving. The one thing about community is that it does not build itself, it requires the community itself to participate. If you decide that you like the old setup better (no one ever likes change) and simply decide to boycott the new system you're going to get what you put into it...nothing. Are there tweaks that could be made to make it better, absolutely, but we have to evolve what we have not revert to the past. From a usage and traffic standpoint since the new site was launched site traffic increased 3X literally overnight and has stay steady since, so I think from a global community perspective it's been very successful and other than this thread, I've not heard any negative feedback in almost a year. In fact for the first time in 11 years I heard unsolicited positive comments about the site! The number of image submissions has increased significantly as well and we now get around 1000-1200 new images every month.

 

That having all been said, I'm certainly open to suggestions and ideas to make it better. Here is what I'm hearing:

 

1) Prevent people from uploading their entire portfolio at once, limit the number of upload per user (perhaps limit uploads per day).

2) Allow people to upload multiple images to a single post.

3) Allow people to control individual portfolios - CGsociety style (you can sort of do this now by going to your profile, but it's not a fully customizable portfolio)

4) Force people to add more information about their submissions. In theory a great idea, but after 11 years experience doing this, an impossible feat. Again you get what you put into it and for the most part people are lazy. Putting info on their submissions would actually require 30 seconds of someones time. [insert sarcasm]. Same thing with categories. That would require the users to actually tag their images properly (that rarely happened in the old system) and from a manpower standpoint I don't have enough hours in the day to tag the number of images being uploaded.

5) Force more/better critiques. Again, I can't force anyone to do anything. The system is just as easy to post comments as the forums, in some ways easier, but if you guys don't take the time to post something relevant (other than "cool image" or "nice") then you are not going to get anything out of it. Also, senior members of this forum can set the example and start posting the type of comments they want to see. Monkey see, monkey do as the saying goes. I've built the platform, it's up to you guys to use it.

 

Anything else?

 

Technically all of the above ideas will require SIGNIFICANT development time. Likely $3-10K each, so any development we do is going to be very well thought out and calculated on a risk/reward basis. I can't just throw money at things on a whim unless there is a potential upside for the site either in traffic, general consensus from many users or revenue. I've already spent upwards of $40,000 in development on the new site. What I might do it pool any suggestions people have and let you vote on what is most important. When we started development in late 2011, I can tell you I had a wishlist a mile long of features I thought for sure we needed. After a year from the release I have a much different view of that and realize that not every bell and whistle is really going to contribute to the overall experience.

Edited January 4, 2013 by Jeff Mottle

[Scott Schroeder]

I think CGSociety limits you to only 5 images for non-paying members. Perhaps that is something to consider? Though, I'm not sure of the logistics of it all and how it would deal with existing members. But it does keep the riff-raff out from people that just vomit up images, most of which are not really that good anyways.

[Jeff Mottle]

I think CGSociety limits you to only 5 images for non-paying members. Perhaps that is something to consider? Though, I'm not sure of the logistics of it all and how it would deal with existing members. But it does keep the riff-raff out from people that just vomit up images, most of which are not really that good anyways.

 

The design of the new site was really done to encourage everyone to submit, not be an elitist gallery. The Like, Comment, and View counters were implemented to allow the cream to rise to the top. Of course that requires everyone to use those features while browsing. For the most part it works. I thought about a paid gallery, but I don't really want to go down that path if I don't have to as the cost to implement is not likely to return that investment given the prevalence of personal website, Facebook, Flickr etc. The "Facebook Stream"-type gallery was implemented so that the homepage would be constantly changing and encourage people to browse further. Traffic wise that's worked exactly as planned. As I spend 3-4 months of the year on the road traveling on CGA business, the old style site was not working as it demanded too much of my time and if the homepage content does not constantly change, people don't come back or visit as deep.

[Justin Hunt]

I think option 3 is good, have the means to upload images to your personal gallery and have the option to "feature" the best images. Downside is many images may get lost, or never seen because people are not going into user galleries.

 

I sometimes play a little game of portfolio hopping on CGsociety, hopping from one user portfolio to an other using that persons "following" or friends list. Quite fun and you come across some interesting works.

 

Jhv

[Nic H]

Agree with the comments about using / looking at the gallery.

I have not looked at it since the new layout came into being. It just seems difficult to sort the wheat from the chaff now.

I do like evermotions (despite it being a straight forum type arrangement) 'best of gallery' and check it out now and again.

[Yama]

I don't know what it is, but since the layout changed, imo it got worse and not better. Don't know why, but people don't comment anymore and if they do it is not very usefull. What happend to "Why don't you try to adjust XY, I would put XY there etc." ?

Is it because of the massive flood of images?

Or is it a general issue in the community?

I have the feeling that when it still was a forum and not a gallery, people put there work to get help or tipps. Now since it is a gallery, people put their work just to be seen/noticed/promoted.

And for that I simply just have no interest. I am not an architect looking for a visualization office. I am a visualizer looking for inspiration, tipps and tricks. It used to work for me when people used to discuss about someones work.

Imo it is not cg architects job to promote you. Appearantly some people take it as an easy opportunity to get promoted without doing much themselves for it. If you want to get promoted, build your own website or facebook page! The gallery is the wrong place to do it.

Or is it?

 

I don't know what the basic idea was behind the "Gallery" System, if it was to make people discuss and interact then it went wrong, because to me, the opposite is the case.

 

And I am not saying this to mess with anyone, I am saying it because I really loved this forum and I am kinda sad about what it turned into. (Even though the news section is great!)

[aristocratic3d]

To be I dont also like the new gallery. I know many people here who dont speak out but they also dont like the new gallery.

I am 100% agree with "Yama".

[Jeff Mottle]

I hear just as many comments from people who "love" the new format, but I'm still open to improvement. The one thing that I still can't figure out is what specifically those in this thread do not like. It's not been clearly articulated what is different between the old format vs the new gallery that you don't like.

 

1) Both the new and old format allow(ed) people to upload as many images as they wanted. Even entire portfolios.

2) Both formats allow(ed) comments and critiques using the forum login.

3) Both formats pushed newer images to the bottom as new posts were made

 

The only difference I can ascertain is:

 

1) You can't filter the images in the new gallery to see those with new comments that were just made. Is this what you are missing?

2) There are a lot more people submitting images than before and thus not as easy for images to stay in focus as long. The same thing could have happened on the forums though, so not really a difference. The new format is just A LOT more popular.

3) The images are not in the same place as the forum and thus not as streamlined to communicate in one place about images and other industry posts.

4) You can't upload multiple images to the same thread/post

 

The new format allows much better filtering/sorting, easier uploading, better visibility, easier to find images by specific artists, the list goes on.

 

If you guys could be more specific as to what specifically you don't like I might be able to review possible changes. As is, it's not been really clear, especially as the new version traffic wise is magnitudes more popular in terms of visits to the site. Traffic is 4-5 times what the old gallery ever had, the caliber of top images is much better, the number of submissions are significantly more and other than this thread, I've only ever heard positive comments. I'm a bit confused.

 

Do post more specifically so I can consider improvements.

 

Jeff

[Nic H]

I suppose the new format - separated from the forum - has eliminated all commenting, critique and general discussion.

The sheer volume of the new images every day bumps any good ones away.

 

People post sets of 10 images of the same thing - which previously might have been in one thread. It also discourages posters of having to give a little more information about the image which is now missing. client, duration, purpose and any tips they might have picked up.

 

Its the social aspect and organisational aspect that is now missing. People at work now go and look at RonBerkman and Evermotion when looking for reference images nowdays. Maybe it is just that people found it irritating to have it in a separate place to the forum which worked well for a long time.

[RyderSK]

I would also say the the new format is quite too "equalist" which is never good thing when it comes to certain quality.

 

The old forum format enabled social curation by users, so in the end, the best works stayed on top, while the sub-par were quickly filtered out.

As of now, all the works, whether very good or horribly bad, enjoy the same amount of attention time.

 

So for most complaining users, like me, the website lost its charm for people looking for quality works. It's rather promotional space for all-kinds of businesses, but without any sort of curation, or other form of regulating, it's not good at that either.

 

I personally very much like the model of social network Behance. Where you can "follow" certain people, and it will shows you only works from them, and works they liked. So when for example you follow 5 very best artist, and they each follow some different top artists, all you will see day by day as inspiration will be the "best" work. You won't need to sort through.

[Jeff Mottle]

Hmm, makes me wonder how much time everyone here has actually spent exploring the new gallery or if you just looked at it for 2 minutes and discounted it as ALL of the things you mention are in the new gallery. In fact NONE of the features you mentioned were even in the original forum gallery. Guys spend some time actually exploring the gallery before complaining about it. If something needs to be moved to be more apparent I can look into it, but nothing you reported is not there.

 

I would also say the the new format is quite too "equalist" which is never good thing when it comes to certain quality.

 

The old forum format enabled social curation by users, so in the end, the best works stayed on top, while the sub-par were quickly filtered out.

As of now, all the works, whether very good or horribly bad, enjoy the same amount of attention time.

 

The work is still user curated, in fact much more so. Just use the "Like" button, Look at an image, or post a comment. Doing any of these things allows you to use the filtering section which always shows the best work on the homepage.

 

So for most complaining users, like me, the website lost its charm for people looking for quality works. It's rather promotional space for all-kinds of businesses, but without any sort of curation, or other form of regulating, it's not good at that either.

 

If you use the filtering, the work is FAR better than what was every submitted to the forums. Trust me on this I look at every single image on the site and always have.

 

I personally very much like the model of social network Behance. Where you can "follow" certain people and it will shows you only works from them, and works they liked. So when for example you follow 5 very best artist, and they each follow some different top artists, all you will see day by day as inspiration will be the "best" work. You won't need to sort through.

 

Umm, you can... Click the Follow button below any users avatar on the right. Then click the black "Subscribed" tab. It then only shows you the images of people you subscribed to. If you want to only see the works they liked. If you want to see what they liked, click on their profile and click on their "subscribed" tab.

[Jeff Mottle]

Maybe it is just that people found it irritating to have it in a separate place to the forum which worked well for a long time.

 

There have always been people who never visit the forum and those who never visit the main site. It's beginning to sound like you just don't want to click an extra button to see the gallery. Currently about 50% of our traffic is the forums and 50% is the main site and all of its content and articles, news etc. Point taken about being able to post multiple images in the same thread. I commented on this issue in an earlier post.

[RyderSK]

My apology, I honestly did miss on the filtering. It's pretty small...nevertheless my fault. But it's still somehow not the default choice. In this way it seems like afterthought and no one feels the need to comment, with average comments being 2/3. The whole content just flows too fast, and filtering it requires effort, even if it's 2 clicks. But that's not laziness, that means it isn't that well working design. Maybe just slight change to what gets displayed by very default when entering site to the best of instead of newest could change it to better. As of now, lot of users desperately fight for attention by simply posting everything possible.

[Jeff Mottle]

My apology, I honestly did miss on the filtering. It's pretty small...nevertheless my fault. But it's still somehow not the default choice. In this way it seems like afterthought and no one feels the need to comment, with average comments being 2/3. The whole content just flows too fast, and filtering it requires effort, even if it's 2 clicks. But that's not laziness, that means it isn't that well working design. Maybe just slight change to what gets displayed by very default when entering site to the best of instead of newest could change it to better. As of now, lot of users desperately fight for attention by simply posting everything possible.

 

Yes, I have been considering allowing users to set a default view, and perhaps even having a way to show all content with recent comments, however doing so automatically means that you miss any new content that might be good and worth seeing. The whole concept of the new site was to encourage user participation on submissions to allow you to select and hightlight the best images and they then automatically rise to the top with filtering. If only 1-2 button clicks is too much work, I would have to argue that's laziness. You had to click A LOT more buttons just to browse the old gallery. We did click counts when we developed the new site to reduce clicks Regardless, I am still considering adding the ability for users to select a default view.

 

There is nothing I can do to "slow" the content down. Over 400,000 unique visitors visit this site each month and around 1.4 million unique each year. There is A LOT of content out there being generated each day.

[Yama]

Speaking of changes: There MUST be an easier way to post several images in one thread since no one seems to get it. Sometimes you have 6 images from the same project posted as 6 individual threads. (For example Mausoleum part 1, part 2, part 4 etc.)

 

This flood of images imo leads to less conversation.

 

And yeah i think the "hot" threads neet to be on top or at least they should be next to the regulars in a little box.

 

Generally I think you must find a way to get people back into writing and not looking, because that's what makes it interesting.

If people post shitty work and get bad critics, they will think twice before posting something cheap.

 

Since no one writes anymore, people are not afraid to post the worst cheap sketch up models they made in an hour and call it archviz (I know with enough skills you can make great images even with sketch up, but you get what I mean)

 

When I look at other forums like Bekerman's or Evermotion, the quality is just way higher than on cgarchitect and that fact should make you think......

 

I would like to see more good work like in these forums on cgarchitect than cheap bad quality renderings. And i bet you would too.

 

I don't wonna give a bad mouth here, it's just sad that I have to go to other forums ot get something I used to have here.

[Jeff Mottle]

I would argue the quality is not higher when you look at the top images on both sites, I just chose not to be elitist in the way the site fundamentally worked with the new version. Just means a few more clicks to see the best work.

[braddewald]

What if you put the "Finished Work" section back in the forum and had those posts automatically cross-posted to the new "Gallery" on the main site. That way people could browse the finished work section of the forum in the way that they they used to? All work would end up in the gallery but not all gallery posts would end up in the finished work forum.

 

About the current Gallery: The problem is with the sorting -- people aren't going to "sort by" anything (maybe some will, but the majority will leave it at it's default sorting, look at the first couple pages and then go about their business elsewhere). There needs to be an algorithm that keeps highly viewed, highly commented, highly liked content on the top for at least 24 hours and lets the terrible stuff quickly fall to the bottom. (The stuff that is on top obviously can't stay on top indefinitely and should fall from the top based on time [like I said 24 hours at least]).

 

I admit that a lot of my frustration comes from posting something I've worked hard on for weeks only to see somebody post 30 images of a scene that is just plain terrible and it knocks out my image from the front page. Nobody will ever see it again unless they go to the top, go to sorting and get the right combo of parameters and go like page 3 to see my image. In the old forum, somebody would have commented, a conversation would have gotten started and it would have stayed on the front page for a time, all the while getting more views, more critiques, more helpful commentary. Back then, nobody would comment on the bad posts and the community would just let them die off and watch them fall down from the top of the forum. The great images, though, would stay on top for a long time, as they should. I think that's what people are missing when they're complaining about the new system.

[Scott Schroeder]

Maybe Bekerman's site may have more quality up front, but it's a community for mutes. Look at the first page of the finished work. Every post, except a few of the oh so ungodly common and boring black and white room renders, has zero comments but at least 50 views.

 

You are always going to fight with good posts getting rolled behind poor quality posts. Because most of the people who post poor quality images don't understand how forums work so they'll just blast work everywhere. Even other forums like Polycount that rely on just posting new threads have this issue. There are great works that just get rolled into oblivion due to the volume. Though, one thing they do over at Polycount is have a running "What are you working on?" thread that people post single images of works they have finished. This keeps everything nice and tidy, and by the end of the year you have a huge single thread of the year's work.

 

Though, I do miss the finished works threads. There is so much information being missed by lack of comments. In a thread, it's easier to post breakdowns and what not or ask questions. In this current system you can't post a long breakdown with images of how you did something.