Mini-ITX render node

[notamondayfan]

OK so following on from my previous thread, I'm looking to finalise the render node build.

 

Whilst looking through 100s of variations, one of my inital specs was for the node to be small. I origionally thought about mini atx, but when looking at the size of the mini atx cases, there really isn't much difference in size, some are perhaps slightly narrower than a midi tower, but not really worth the compromise.

 

 

So eventually I stumbled across this -

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cooler-Master-Elite-Advanced-Mini/dp/B008M6THIU/ref=pd_cp_computers_0

 

The size is perfect, and would sit on-top of my desktop and still fit under the desk.

 

The rest of the spec would be -

 

CPU - i7 4770

http://www.dabs.com/products/intel-core-i7-4770-s1150-3-4ghz-8mb-haswell-quad-core-processor-8NG0.html

 

Motherboard - (EDIT) ASRock B85 PRO4

http://www.amazon.co.uk/ASRock-B85-PRO4-Motherboard-Generation/dp/B00D3IKLLO/ref=pd_sim_sbs_computers_2

 

PSU - Corsair 500W modular

http://www.dabs.com/products/corsair-500-watt-builder-series-cx-500-modular-power-supply-8GFT.html

 

RAM - Corsair 16GB (2x8GB) DDR3 1866Mhz

http://www.dabs.com/products/corsair-16gb--2x8gb--ddr3-1866mhz-cl10-vengeance-red-performance-desktop-memory-kit-81QG.html

 

HD - Seagate 500gb

http://www.dabs.com/products/seagate-momentus-spinpoint-500gb-sata-2-5--5400-rpm-hard-drive-8S08.html

 

Other -

Windows 7

DVDRW Drive

 

 

My main concerns with this are

 

A. Will I really struggle with size? I'm going modular PSU to cut down on the cables, but am I asking too much?

 

B. Will the RAM I spec'd be compatible with the motherboard? On the ASRock site, the RAM isn't listed as compatible, and it says "Supports DDR3 1600/1333/1066" but doesn't mention 1866. Can anyone advise?

An alternative RAM could be http://www.amazon.co.uk/Corsair-16GB-XMS3-Memory-Module/dp/B0085IZVKI/ref=sr_1_10?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1371244079&sr=1-10&keywords=16gb+ram but again it's not listed on the ASRock site. Or even this http://www.amazon.co.uk/Crucial-BLT2CP8G3D1608DT1TX0CEU-Ballistix-Tactical-Memory/dp/B007J0BHZQ/ref=pd_sim_sbs_computers_1

 

Any advice would be really welcomed, especially on the RAM issue!

 

Thanks,

Dean

Edited June 14, 2013 by notamondayfan

[Dimitris Tolios]

The CM 120 is a great case. The full size PSU will fit just fine. Modular or not. If you don't need to add a GPU in the future, the 500W is actually not the best idea. A 350-400W PSU (or even 250) would work just fine. PSUs are the most efficient loaded around the 50% mark of their rated capacity.

A stock clocked haswell i7 with a single drive will probably float in the 100W range or less. The 500W is overkill, and most likely will be less efficient than a lower capacity, same 80+ rating unit.

 

The memory controller is built in most modern CPUs - there is nothing the mobo "cannot" support technically. 1866 should work just fine.

Ofc you don't need to go 1866. Intel CPUs show little no no improvement with it over 1600, and for a render node that might be a completely un-justified expense.

Edited June 14, 2013 by dtolios

[notamondayfan]

Hi Dimitris,

 

Thanks for the advice. The only reason i specd 1866 ram was down to price. Its £10 cheaper than the others.

 

For the psu, i cant find any modular ones any lower than 430w, so think I'll go with that, and saves a further £15 which is always good!

 

Cheers,

Dean

[Tommy L]

Hello Dean,

I too (after much time wasting) have opted for small format pc's for 6 nodes:

 

Shuttle SX79R5 XPC Barebone PC - LGA2011, Intel X79 Express Chipset

Intel Core i7-3930K

16 G Ram (2x8, expandable to 32)

 

My question is...

What CPU fan should I buy, any ideas anyone?

[Dimitris Tolios]

http://us.shuttle.com/barebone/Models/SX79R5.html

 

Integrated Cooling Engine Technology (I.C.E.) - the case comes with a cooling solution.

It is expensive though (

 

Since other mITX s2011 motherboards aren't available, and if SFF is what you what...

[Tommy L]

Yes exactly. I got a blade quote for 8x 3930's, best one I found was $16k. Im getting 6 x 3930s in small boxes for around $8k. I have to pull the trigger now as rendering is a real bottleneck.

[notamondayfan]

 

What CPU fan should I buy, any ideas anyone?

 

If you're not over-clocking, then I'd just stick with the stock fan as it's designed to be used with the CPU.

[Dimitris Tolios]

I would not even attempt overclocking with a s2011 sff/itx board that's not designed for it.

A mildly clocked 3930k will be pulling more than 300w. The electric supply circuits need to be serious for the mobo to survive and be stable

[Tommy L]

I wont be overclocking. The box is a system designed around the chip though, so it should be a reliable setup. Ive read bad reviews, but they have all come from people who had problems with the bios, not overheating. I have a friend who I copieds this build from, he says they run great and he has a similar workflow to mine.

[notamondayfan]

Parts ordered, so hopefully within 2 weeks it'll all be sorted and rendering Will do a blog post if all goes well!!

[unrinoceronte]

Hello Dean,

I too (after much time wasting) have opted for small format pc's for 6 nodes:

 

Shuttle SX79R5 XPC Barebone PC - LGA2011, Intel X79 Express Chipset

Intel Core i7-3930K

16 G Ram (2x8, expandable to 32)

 

My question is...

What CPU fan should I buy, any ideas anyone?

 

Hi Tom, i am also very interesting in building a few Mini ITX render nodes, can you comment on how are your new nodes working? Everything ok, or will you have configured something different?

 

Can you also post how much did it cost one of this nodes? Are those 3 components all the configuration, or did you put something else? (i understand that the Shuttle comes with PSU, mobo, etc..) Did you stayed with the included fan or an additional cooler?

 

Are these Shuttles "stackable" one on top of the other? (regarding airflow and heat...)

[Tommy L]

Hi Tom, i am also very interesting in building a few Mini ITX render nodes, can you comment on how are your new nodes working? Everything ok, or will you have configured something different?

 

Can you also post how much did it cost one of this nodes? Are those 3 components all the configuration, or did you put something else? (i understand that the Shuttle comes with PSU, mobo, etc..) Did you stayed with the included fan or an additional cooler?

 

Are these Shuttles "stackable" one on top of the other? (regarding airflow and heat...)

 

Everything works just fine. I stayed with the stock cooler. Ive seen a couple of mods on the Shuttle forum for doubling up the fan on the back of the case, so one pushes and one pulls. they do run very hot, Ive not checked temps but they warm my office considerably.

I havent stacked them and if I did I would give some seperation / air flow in between as they would heat each other up a bit.

I guess each node came to about $1200 including OS and cables. In addition to what I listed you'll need a HDD also. I just got a cheap 500GB 7200rpm. You can go SSD if you want, I think the benefit will be minimal.

 

Given the choice again, I'd probably get the same.

[unrinoceronte]

Thanks Tom, i will take all that into consideration. Do you know of similar size cases that get less hot than the Shuttles?

[Tommy L]

Shuttle is the only small form factor case that supports the i7 6core 3930.

[Dimitris Tolios]

Thanks Tom, i will take all that into consideration. Do you know of similar size cases that get less hot than the Shuttles?

 

There are no mITX boards other than that proprietary Shuttle chassis that do socket 2011.

You can find proprietary boards by Supermicro and others (used in blade nodes etc) but there are no consumer options available.

[unrinoceronte]

There are no mITX boards other than that proprietary Shuttle chassis that do socket 2011.

You can find proprietary boards by Supermicro and others (used in blade nodes etc) but there are no consumer options available.

 

...hhmm interesting and important detail...., so what is left for me is only using that case or sticking with the 4770 nodes option, like the ones that Dean Punchard built... Not bad, they will be cheaper.

 

On another tought... i am thinking of doing this mini itx at the end of this year, when supposedly there will be new Intel CPUs... maybe by then i will have a better option than the 4770 or the 3930 to choose from...

[numerobis]

...hhmm interesting and important detail...., so what is left for me is only using that case or sticking with the 4770 nodes option, like the ones that Dean Punchard built...

 

or use micro-ATX instead... not much bigger but more space for much better cooling:

 

http://www.silverstonetek.com/product.php?pid=303&area=usa

-front to back airflow (180/120mm) with space for full tower coolers up to 165mm

 

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/silent-pc-gaming-performance,3435.html

 

and the boards:

http://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/X79%20Extreme4-M/index.de.asp?cat=&os=&c=

http://www.msi.com/product/mb/X79MA-GD45.html

http://www.asus.com/ROG_ROG/RAMPAGE_IV_GENE/

[unrinoceronte]

Thanks numerobis, thats a nice case, but i was actually focusing on really small case for space limitations, and mini itx seemed the way to go for me. I understand the limitations of this format (like RAM, OC and temperatures), but some people here seem to have this kind of nodes for their own Farms, and well, they will also "look" better on my homeoffice. I plan to start with just a few of them, but who knows in a couple of years...

 

I really wanted to find something similar to BOXX Render Pro, but i couldnt...: http://www.boxxtech.com/Products/renderpro , which besides size, is really cool design and format... but then after some investigation and threads like these one from Dean Punchard i saw a good alternative option for mini itx with the Cooler Master Elite 120 .... I also found these other alternatives:

 

 

Fractal Design: http://www.amazon.com/Fractal-Design-Mini-ITX-Computer-FD-CA-NODE-304-BL/dp/B009LHF4FO/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pd_S_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=224Q5OPRJ7J4&coliid=IPTKAUPSK0K6J

 

Lian Li: One of this models, i still have to research more: http://www.lian-li.com/en/products/#37/1/list

 

SilverstoneTek:

http://www.silverstonetek.com/product.php?pid=210&area=en This one seems to be the SMALLER of them all...

 

http://www.silverstonetek.com/product.php?pid=317&area=en

 

I dont have hands on experience on any of them, but i plan to find out.

 

Dean sorry for hi jacking your thread....

[numerobis]

Yes, the silverstone SG05 is really a nice case. Maybe not the best airflow, but it should be ok.

The airflow of the SG08 could be a problem if you plan to stack them...

 

But one more thought: if you plan to buy more than one node, where would be the advantage to have maybe 3 smaller cases with 4770K instead of maybe 2 slightly bigger ones with 3930K/4930K? Maybe overclocked...

Fewer nodes = fewer components and easier administration.

 

And maybe another option: some weeks ago there was a rumour that intel plans to release a last, slightly lower clocked, cheaper Sandy Bridge-E hexacore with a smaller cache but with a free multi (3910K). If this is really true, then this could a great chip - if it is a good overclocker. But maybe it is only a higher clocked and unlocked quad core sandy-E.

(it is already listed as supported CPU in the newest CPU-Z version http://www.cpuid.com/ )

[Dimitris Tolios]

SB-E are great, but draw a lot of power, thus are "Doomed" to run hot in small cases.

It is also hard to provide sufficient power using small boards, as power consumption more than doubles by the time you hit 4.4-4.5GHz.

My 3930K overclocked is pulling more than 300Watts.

 

In general I would not expect to push a hex-core in a SFF system without making sure it can take it - and I doubt the Shuttle can, so even talking about it without a board that matches the potential of ATX boards - ala Asus Rampage 4 Gene or at least an Asrock X79 Extreme 4 M - both mATX.

 

Also, the new CPUs "by the end of the year" will be the 49xx Ivy bridge extreme line for s2011. There will be no renewal in the s1150 line for a year at least, so the 4770K will probably remain the fastest Quad - unless the new s2011 quad is as good as we day-dreamers expect.

[unrinoceronte]

Numerobis, you have a point:

if you plan to buy more than one node, where would be the advantage to have maybe 3 smaller cases with 4770K instead of maybe 2 slightly bigger ones with 3930K/4930K? Maybe overclocked...

 

Here i did a small exercise, altough only comparing CASE SIZES and prices, not performance... Later this weekend I will do my best to find some performance benchmarks on the CPU, and compatible MoBos and try to do a similar comparison with the 6 vs 4 nodes to have a clearer conclusion on all aspects... In the meantime i have found this very usefull thread about a similar subject, and the

Posts # 4, 6 , 7, 11, 17 from Dimitri are particularly useful for this subject.... http://forums.cgarchitect.com/73715-new-nodes.html

 

First thing i had in mind is to use the nodes "as they are", meaning No Overclocking..., but i will have to do the math and see the pros and cons.. I have read that the 3930K does not have an integrated GPU and needs an additional (a cheap one), and the other components will be more expensive too... in overall just seeing the price of 1 unit will be quite more expensive, altough the comparison should be with a group of units...

 

COMPARISON CHART: CASE Size / Space Requirements / Case Price

 

So just regarding size and design it seems that all the options that i compare are similiar in space requirements seen from the front, but in depth there is a bigger difference. Perhaps also if i add more SG05s nodes, they can be "stacked" one or to more rows above?... I have to admit that i like how the 6 SG05 small nodes "look".... I have added an option with the Fractal Design CORE 1000 because that was my ORIGINAL OPTION when going with mATX. Also i like the looks of that case a lot, and was recommended to me very much, and has a lower price than the TJ08-E (less than half)...

 

Fewer nodes = fewer components and easier administration.

This is a good point for the i7 3930k option, and importantly, fewer components, altough more expensive ones, also reduce the overall price. In the other hand, might it be debatable that more Nodes means more reliability as a whole? (redundancy i think is called), since if one node goes down, i will still have 5 nodes out of 6, or 83% capacity , compared to 3 nodes out of 4, or 75% capacity... I think Energy consumption and overall Heat (of the room) should be somehow considered as Dimitri mentions... ( i dont plan on using Air conditioning on my Home office...)

 

EDIT: well i just found again another Thread that answers most of my questions... I think i will not need to do any math since it has been done in this post for the 3770, and the 4770 as i understand is very similar in performance (10% faster)...

 

Thread at: http://forums.cgarchitect.com/73529-5-3770k-nodes-vs-3-3930k-nodes.html ... Very useful list of components and Prices by Jon Seagull.

 

by Dimitri Tolios

Re: 5 3770K nodes vs. 3 3930K nodes

Assuming that the IGP for both is the same (which is not, 3770K is ~10% faster per clock):

Aggregating MHz:

3930K = 12 threads @ 3200MHz = 38,400 MHz / CPU * 3 = 115,000 MHz

3770K = 8 threads @ 3400MHz = 27,200 MHz / CPU * 5 = 136,000 MHz

 

Without correcting for IGP, the 5x 3770K nodes would be 18% faster than the 3x 3930K nodes.

Assuming a 10% IGP performance gain clock per clock which is a safe assumption in most Ivy bridge vs Sandy bridge scenarios, the 3770K set will be 30% faster.

 

I would not go for itx, despite the fact that I love the format, simply to have the 4x dimm slots and the capability for 32GB max Ram - even if you think that initially 16GB will be enough. H77 mATX boards are also around $20-30 cheaper than ITX equivalents.

The Core 1000 is a great case for the price.

If you end up with 3930K (or any s2011 CPU), remember that you need to account for CPU cooler - non is included.

 

Seems that the 6 x 4770k Nodes are the way to go....

Edited August 20, 2013 by unrinoceronte