Rendernode AMD or Intel based?

[ivancinaivan]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post here and I need some suggestion for my first rendernode. Actually I have a small computer configuration i5 cpu based used for modelling and postproduction. I use 3ds max, Vray and Photoshop. Because of my budget I was looking for a medium range cpu but I have to make a decision:

 

1. AMD CPU Desktop FX-Series X8 8350 EightCore**GHz,16MB,125W,AM3+) box Vishera core

 

2. I7 3820

 

Benchmarks seems to be good oriented to this AMD processor and the prize is really good.

What is your opinion about this processor?

Any suggestion will be appreciated!! Thanks to all

[RyderSK]

While the AMD seems like very good value and behaves quite well in synthetic tests of simpler scenes or low-res (even in benchmarks like Cinebech), the actual numbers I've seen from production Vray scenes indicate quite opposite and the results are very dissapoiting. At one point I was very tempted to buy the the FX, but each time I've seen real times not synthetic benchmark it was utterly bad (Vray, Maxwell, or Corona renderer which I use now). So I would just advice to stay away.

 

Neither is i7e quadcore good choice, unless you need the more robust chipset for 64gb ram or quad graphic cards.

 

I would choose between 3930k or 4770k depending whether you want less or more boxes.

[numerobis]

The biggest problem of the AMD CPUs is their single thread performance which is ~35-40% lower than comparable Intel CPUs (i7 3770K/4770K)

http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/cpu-charts-2012/-01-Cinebench-11.5,3142.html

And not all rendering tasks are multithreaded, which can result in a much lower overall performance depending on the renderer and the scene.

Edited June 24, 2013 by numerobis

[ivancinaivan]

 

Neither is i7e quadcore good choice, unless you need the more robust chipset for 64gb ram or quad graphic cards.

 

I would choose between 3930k or 4770k depending whether you want less or more boxes.

 

Thank you for response! Well, I was afraid of these considerations about AMD cpu's...So Intel is a right choice. I'd like to make myself two rendernodes (for now) acting like render slaves but only with 16 Gb of RAM each node and with mobo integrated graphic card. Do you think the ram is enough? I was considering that on amazon a i7 3820 is about 270 euro and i7 3930k is about 530 euro. How much this difference influences render times? Thanks in advance!

[ivancinaivan]

Thanks for response! Now my ideas about Intel & AMD are more clear! Surely I'll take an Intel cpu

[ivancinaivan]

And not all rendering tasks are multithreaded, which can result in a much lower overall performance depending on the renderer and the scene.

I'll take a look on various benchmark but I don't want to risk with an AMD, my usual scenes is really various, from small interiors to some bigger residencial exteriors with a lot of proxies and polygons.

[numerobis]

I'll take a look on various benchmark but I don't want to risk with an AMD, my usual scenes is really various, from small interiors to some bigger residencial exteriors with a lot of proxies and polygons.

 

just to be clear, because it looks like you misread my post... i'm also clearly on the intel side! Even if you can get close to the performance of an 2700K in multithreaded cinebench, i think the i7 are much more powerful than the FX. We speak about 50-60% more single thread performance comparing the fastest FX and a 3770K or 4770K, which is a lot more speed and an advance of 1-2 CPU generations!

And if overclocking is an option for you this this difference can increase even more!

 

I would take a 3930K (hexa core, socket 2011) or 4770K or 3770K as quadcores (socket 1155/1150). The 3820K is too expensive compared to the s1150 quadcores, a bit slower (http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/523?vs=551), has no free multi and only worth the money if you need more than 32GB RAM or ECC. Or if you want to be able to upgrade to a hexa core (3930K/4930K) later. But in this case i would take the 3930K now. The price/performance ratio is a bit better for the 3770K/4770K (but almost the same when you compare both as overclocked processors)

Personally i would go with the 3930K, especially if you plan for more than one node... les ssystems -less hassle. If a 4770K is enough for you, take this one.

 

...with mobo integrated graphic card. Do you think the ram is enough?

The 3930K/3820 (s2011) doesn't have integrated graphics like the 3770K/4770K , so you will need a video card.

Personally i will not build a system with less than 32GB anymore, but this depends on YOUR needs.

I was considering that on amazon a i7 3820 is about 270 euro and i7 3930k is about 530 euro. How much this difference influences render times? Thanks in advance!

 

six to four cores...

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/523?vs=552

Edited June 24, 2013 by numerobis

[ivancinaivan]

Thanks for your precious suggestions numerobis! And sorry for the inconvenience, I perfectly intended your post but my bad english let me write something else ). Please could you rate this configuration:

 

CPU: i7 4770k - 320 euro

MOBO: Asus P8H77 - V Socket 1155 DDR3 SATA3 USB3 ATX - 75 euro

RAM: Corsair 32GB Vengeance DDR3 Memory 1600MHz 4x8GB - 289 euro

HD: Samsung MZ-7TD250BW, SSD 840 250 GB Stand Alone - 146 euro

COOLER: Corsair 430 W - 60 euro

CASE: Cooler Master Elite 361 - 43 euro

 

TOTAL: 933 euro

 

I'm not sure about all that ram and ssd, I'm a little bit over my budget for node. For now I don't want to overclock and the reason is that I have no idea how to do that but maybe in future I'll try.

Thanks again!

[RyderSK]

First thing, you can't use (P8H-)77, it's Ivy bridge chipset, you need "-87" for Haswell, and can choose from quite few (Z/B/H) depending on your needs. It's not clear to me how much this is just node, or whether you intent to swap it as main workstation too. It mostly depends on whether you want to overclock (Z) or not. That follows the choice between overclocable 4770k (paired with Z chipset) or 4770 (H-regular/B-somehow office enviro oriented) where you save 20 bucks on cpu and another 20 bucks at least on motherboard. While I am not such huge fan of overclocking, because imho, for render node, it's not that worth over chance of instability or higher power draw, you can decide on based on price, non-overclocable is bit cheaper, over-clockable can give you more bang for you money, it's rather taste based. Nothing complicated at all with the K-version, all rather simple, no geek skill necessary ;- )

 

Also consider the socket-size, if it's only Node (but even regular workstation would get by these days) you might opt for smaller microATX motherboard paired with mini-Tower case. Might save you both space, money and hassle moving around.

 

Ram, I have so many Corsair modules in my computers, I can't count it :- ) I bought them, because I was dumb. They are pretty and have good price point. They also have the quite high faulty rate compared to some other choices. If you can, I would opt for Kingston, even the version without any sort of heatsink. Much safer choice. Also, STAY AWAY from Vengeance, the heatsink is so horribly high it won't fit below any cpu cooler. Again, I can post picture of my older workstation, where I too felt for marketing and cool heatsink (I thought it was beneficial..), because I was dumb,..). Either low-profile heatsinks, or no heatsinks at all.

 

As for case, I would buy something more reasonable (it's also super ugly). You can get certain Fractal cases for as little as 80 euros (or half of that for Core, which you should only opt if it's true node, nothing else).

 

SSD, if it's node, it's too high, I don't even use more than 80GB on my workstations, the rest is in network. Save money here.

 

By the way, where are you from ? Some of those prices are quite high...for example the Corsair Memory (it's 50 bucks cheaper by average) or the ATX, should be below 40 not 60 by far..)

 

You should be able to get 4770k node under 600 euros without tax in quite nice configuration (Fractal case, SSD, reputable power supply, 32GB ram)

Edited June 24, 2013 by RyderSK

[Dimitris Tolios]

Well, lots of opinions on the table, so I won't stress it.

 

* The FX 8350 is a fast processor. In Vray comparisons it matches the 3770K. Vray DR is multithreaded and pretty consistent. Doesn't have built in GPU like the 1155/1150 i7s, but it is FAR cheaper and the best "bang for your buck" if you are trying to get a lot of fast buckest on a tight budget.

600 euros for a 4770K including OS and 32GB of Ram is tought I think, but I could check when I get home.

 

* The 3820 is not a good choice for a 4C/8T CPU unless you are using it as a stepping stone for a hex core you cannot afford right now, but you think you will in the future. It consumes more power, without giving better performance than the 3770K/4770K which are also 4C/8T and also offer built in GPU (IGP). As properly explained, it gives you access to more than 32GB of RAM and more GPU lanes, but for the latter you have to invest into serious X79 mobos, that cost as much as 1155/1150 boards with PLX chips that support the same lanes - still limited to 32GB of Ram.

[RyderSK]

DEF not including OS Dimitris :- ) Never count it in HW price, though you have a point there..

[ivancinaivan]

Thanks for suggestion!

Well, first thing for removing all doubts it will be just two simple nodes, so if I understood well if I opt for an i7 4770 (not overclockable, more cheaper) I have to pair it with an Asus P87M - Plus (founded it on amazom, is it a right choice?) that support haswell. Ok for kingstone RAM instead of vengeance and probably I'll take 16gb instead of 32gb, too much expensive and maybe oversized for my needs. I found also a Samsung SSD 120 Gb quite cheaper.

 

So this is a new configuration for rendernode if I opt for Intel CPU:

 

CPU: i7 4770 - 280 euro

RAM: Kingston 16Gb 1333Mhz Ddr3 Non-Ecc Cl9 Dimm (2x8) - 120 euro

HD: Samsung MZ-7TD120BW, SSD 840 120 GB Stand Alone - 84 euro

MOBO: ASUS 90MB0F10-M0EAY0 (H87M-Plus) - 90 euro

POWER SUPPLY & COOLER: Corsair CX430 V2 - 43 euro

 

TOTAL: 617 euro (to add case)

 

I have to choose between various model of cases (fractal are not bad, love its spartan and ugly design), these are some of them I find interesting:

1. Cooler Master Elite 361 (vertical & horizontal 46,4 x 15 x 36,8 cm) - 38 euro

2. Fractal Core 1000 (40 x 20 x 45 cm) - 43 euro

3. Fractal Design Arc Mini - mini tower - micro ATX (45 x 25 x 50 cm) - 80 euro

 

Beyond its estethic consideration what about their cooler features? Enough space for everything?

Do I need an extra cooler for cpu?

 

By the way, where are you from ? Some of those prices are quite high...for example the Corsair Memory (it's 50 bucks cheaper by average) or the ATX, should be below 40 not 60 by far..)

I come from Milan, Italy and all prices are from amazon.it. Here in Italy are killing us with taxes...

 

SSD, if it's node, it's too high, I don't even use more than 80GB on my workstations, the rest is in network. Save money here.

Could I ask you something? Your storage data (textures, proxies, ecc.) are on workstation or on external hd or nas? What is the best and fastest workflow for your experience to prevent bottleneckes?

 

Thanks!

[numerobis]

One other question for me is, why don't you upgrade you workstation to 4770 (K) and put the i5 in the second node (or sell the processor it and buy a i7 instead)?

This would speed up your whole work inkluding modeling and test renders... i really don't see the point for keeping the weakest parts in the workstation.

 

You need a Z87 based board to use the internal graphics!

 

I would add a good cooler because these haswell chips run VERY hot!

 

Concerning the question Corsair vs Kingston RAM i think you can take both of them. I never had any problems with corsair so far. (i think currently i have 5x kingston and 4x corsair, if i remember correctly). Maybe Kingston is still the first brand when it comes to compatibility testing but normally there should be no problems with corsair aswell. I would look for low profile (normal) modules because you can get problems using a bigger cooler with these higher modules.

I would take 1600MHz RAM. The difference in performance will be marginal, but the price should be almost identical too.

 

The Samsung 840 non-Pro should be ok for a node, a cheap alternative could be the Kingston V300 120GB (i use one in a node). For a workstation i would take the Pro version of the Samsung and with 256GB (128GB=390MB/s writing; 256GB=520MB/s writing)

 

the PSU should be ok if you don't want to overclock.

 

Concerning the case i would opt for one with at least 120mm fans and 19cm width for bigger cpu coolers. I use the cooler master elite 370 for all of my nodes... not very beautiful but VERY cheap and functional, with a good airflow.

 

 

Btw: overclocking these K-Haswell/Ivy Bridge is really very simple... (the only problem can be the heat especially with haswell).

I overclock all my my worstations and nodes for more than a decade now and never had any problems - you only have to watch your temps and it needs a bit of testing until you find the optimal values but it can give you 20-30% more speed for only a few bucks more (if you compare the non-K- and the K-version).

Edited June 25, 2013 by numerobis

[RyderSK]

Different in cases mentioned is FracalCore cannot mount after-market CPU coolers due to no cutout in tray for support. It also only comes with single Fan. The cooler isn't such problem, as the BOX version comes up with decent cooler for Node.

Arc can support aftermarket coolers, in case you opt for it as workstation, and want more quit or powerful cpu cooler. It also comes bundled with 3 fractal fans (each cost 10 euros), so the price difference isn't that high when you consider this.

There is also the most minimal R3 Mini.

 

Fractal: Spartan, yes, but ugly ? :- D It's currently considered among the nicest designed cases second to Lian-Li or Silverstone for fraction of their price. But I understand why most people just prefer the "Alienware-look"...Cooler master, that is the epitome of geek ugliness.

 

It's true you might be perfectly fine with Corsair rams, 90perc. modules I had were fine too. But the moment your renders start crashing due to bad sectors in single module you will have to hunt down with mem-test, then go buy another redundat module,etc... it's not worth the trouble. Just get the safer option. They basicly cost the same anyway.

 

As for integrated GPU, it comes with all mentioned chipsets I wrote, not just Z, but also B and H. So you chose right this time.

Numerobis is wrong about http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/H87MPLUS/ as it perfectly supporst integrated gpu.

 

Here is pretty good comparison about all the chipsets for current Haswell:

 

http://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Z87-H87-H81-Q87-Q85-B85-What-is-the-difference-473/

Edited June 25, 2013 by RyderSK

[numerobis]

As for integrated GPU, it comes with all mentioned chipsets I wrote, not just Z, but also B and H. So you chose right this time.

Numerobis is wrong about http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/H87MPLUS/ as it perfectly supporst integrated gpu.

 

Here is pretty good comparison about all the chipsets for current Haswell:

 

http://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Z87-H87-H81-Q87-Q85-B85-What-is-the-difference-473/

 

Ah, yes... you're right - i misread this somewhere, sorry...

 

(and i didn't read all posts above...)

[RyderSK]

No problem, why sorry :- ) The never-ending amount of intel sockets are super confusing and only exist because of retarded Intel politics.

 

I think last time certain socket didn't support it was in Sandybridge, which was P (P8P67). In Ivy Bridge I think all chipsets support integrated gpu unless you buy "-P" version on cpu (3770-P). In Haswell the same.

Edited June 25, 2013 by RyderSK

[ivancinaivan]

One other question for me is, why don't you upgrade you workstation to 4770 (K) and put the i5 in the second node (or sell the processor it and buy a i7 instead)?

This would speed up your whole work inkluding modeling and test renders... i really don't see the point for keeping the weakest parts in the workstation.

Actually I'm a mac user, cause of my past graphic work. I'm quite new to the cgi industry and now I'm migrating slowly to some new hardware configuration. This is the reason why I'm not upgrading the computer!

For now I'm considering two render nodes to speed up my final production and not stress my old computer all night long...do you know some good guideline online to overclock cpu? in that case i have to opt for a -k cpu and -z motherboard and if the production is 20-30%, well maybe it could be a good reason!

[ivancinaivan]

No problem, why sorry :- ) The never-ending amount of intel sockets are super confusing and only exist because of retarded Intel politics.

 

I think last time certain socket didn't support it was in Sandybridge, which was P (P8P67). In Ivy Bridge I think all chipsets support integrated gpu unless you buy "-P" version on cpu (3770-P). In Haswell the same.

 

Thanks Juraj for the help and best regards. I discovered that the nice renders of bedroom I was watching on some site days ago was your work, really beatifull!

[numerobis]

do you know some good guideline online to overclock cpu? in that case i have to opt for a -k cpu and -z motherboard and if the production is 20-30%, well maybe it could be a good reason!

i think for the 4770K what you can expect is more like 15-20%. They run hotter than ivy bridge and much hotter than sandy bridge.

I have several sandy bridge running at 4,7GHz in my nodes, air cooled. But this would not be possible using the ivy bridge and haswell. Maybe 4,3-4,5GHz for the 3770K and 4,2-4,3GHz for the 4770K (not my experience, but looking at the results in all the reviews and overclocking forums)

So maybe a 3770K would be the better choice if you plan to overclock it, but i'm not sure...

The 4770K should be ~5% faster than the 3770K at the same clock rate. So if you can clock the 3770K ~200MHz higher, the speed should be almost the same.

 

The overclocking guides are a bit different depending on the board, because not all boards support the same options. If you have chosen a board you should look for specific guides. Here are some good to start with:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1291703/ivy-bridge-overclocking-guide-asus-motherboards

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?280517-Ivy-Bridge-Overclocking-Guide-(Extreme-LN2-Section-Guide-Included

Edited July 2, 2013 by numerobis

[ivancinaivan]

i think for the 4770K what you can expect is more like 15-20%. They run hotter than ivy bridge and much hotter than sandy bridge so the

I have several sandy bridge running at 4,7GHz in my nodes, air cooled. But this would not be possible using the ivy bridge and haswell. Maybe 4,3-4,5GHz for the 3770K and 4,2-4,3GHz for the 4770K (not my experience, but looking at the results in all the reviews and overclocking forums)

So maybe a 3770K would be the better choice if you plan to overclock it, but i'm not sure...

The 4770K should be ~5% faster than the 3770K at the same clock rate. So if you can clock the 3770K ~200MHz higher, the speed should be almost the same.

 

The overclocking guides are a bit different depending on the board, because not all boards support the same options. If you have chosen a board you should look for specific guides. Here are some good to start with:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1291703/ivy-bridge-overclocking-guide-asus-motherboards

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?280517-Ivy-Bridge-Overclocking-Guide-(Extreme-LN2-Section-Guide-Included

 

Thanks a lot! The last thing I have to do now is decide and order all components!

[Zdravko Barisic]

4770K is hot like a HELL, also, FX-8350 is a lot of hot.

i7-2/3xxx is the only worth buying for slaves, even the workstation.

...

for everyone on this forum

AVOID THE I7-4xxx SERIES, HOT IS LIKE A HELL

[Dimitris Tolios]

I kinda disagree.

There are few distinct things with CPUs and myths or misconceptions around temperature and heat:

 

Heat: heat is energy. You might have a lot of heat that you dissipate properly and that won't lead to running @ high temperatures. For example the FX 8xxx chips consume A LOT of power, produce a lot of heat, but are not running hot - given you have proper cooling. With similar clocks, say 4.5GHz, a 8350 might have 220W power draw, the 3770K will have 150W or less, the 4770K will be around 150-155W. Those are "real" power draws, and ofc heat that needs to be dissipated by the cooler.

 

At normal speeds, 8350 is 125W, the 3770K is "TDP" 77W and the 4770K is 87W. Thing is, that includes the IGP (the graphics the i7 chips have), which is rarely if ever used @ full power when you use them as a render node. So the real TDP for those chips should be 20-25W less than the factory rated one. TDP is the theoretical thermal envelope the chips cooler should be designed to dissipate.

Ivy Bridge and Haswell, are thus very efficient chips. It just happens to have a much smaller manufacturing process than the AMD chip, thus the actual area that gets to consume all this power and needs to be cooled down is much much smaller. The thermal density of those 2 devices, if we think them as simple electric resistors, is much higher than that of the FX 83xx line. Actually it is much higher than even the older Sandy Bridge line.

 

Thus, these chips run hot. Meaning those reach a higher TEMPERATURE than other chips with bigger dies/smaller heat density.

Simply because their dies produce a lot of heat relative to the mm2 of available area doesn't make them a failure.

 

Really now, running hot, or having a high temperature of operation is actually ok. Chips are designed to do so. Most intel chips are designed to throttle past 100oC, which means that even @ 85-90oC you are well off that threshold.

T

hus it is good to always "define" what we mean by "hot".

 

3770K & 4770K are not overheating, they just run hotter than their predessesors due to the smaller die. They are not unstable, they don't produce more heat by running hotter, they won't increase your energy bill cause they run hotter. They just run hotter.

 

The FX 8350 will run cooler - i.e. lower average temperatures - yet pulls almost 2x the energy @ stock speeds, will heat up your room 2x as much etc. Depending on where you live (i.e. energy cost @ KW) this might mean something significant, or it might mean nothing that can offset the fact that a 8350 can get close to the rendering performance of an i7 for $150 less (give or take, bundled with a relative mobo for each). You might break even with increased energy costs over a couple of years, or over 10+, i.e. if you lack the dollars you can push your eco-friendliness to the side and embrace AMD powa despite the inefficiency.

 

The 4770K is just as good a solution with the 3770K, offering - hopefully, it is not clear if it will - an upgrade path with the next generation of LGA 1150 CPUs.

The 3770K though of good value, is an LGA 1155 socket CPU which has been phased out in favor of the 1150. It will run hot, it's true.

"It's not a bug, it's a feature"