Best / quickest way to learn visualisation ?

[williamcai]

I know this may sound like a very dumb question but I have found myself in quite a difficult position.

 

My question is where do you start?

 

When do you know you are good enough?

 

I thought I was good enough and so I found a job in a small firm promising to do the viz, but then I realized I cant keep up with the dead lines with a quality that I am satisfied with. More importantly I don't / can't even improve because I have no time to improve as I need to force myself to use what I know just to try meet the deadline rather than learning new techniques. I am upset because I failed to deliever the firm's expectations within the deadline. I don't want to get stuck in this loop.

 

Do people start off learning at home first until they've become "good" or do you guys start working in a firm as an apprentice and learn off a pro?

 

Do you guys set yourself projects? How do you get to the next level?

Edited July 17, 2013 by williamcai

[marius e]

Sounds good to me!....best way to learn, you will find that in six months time you are far better off than you were wrt knowledge and things you are learning through trial and error. I have been doing this for around 10 years and many jobs even the ones that you think are the easy ones pose problems that need to be solved, it takes a lot of time, errors and trials, but that is the only way, you cant expect to be the best at the first go but it is good to push yourself the way you have.

 

Just keep at it, when you finished your days work, take the project home and try different techniques on rendering etc, that the only way....

[Chris MacDonald]

I was fortunate enough to not be employed as a full time 3D guy where I work, and gradually picked up bits & pieces over a couple of years before eventually having to become full time 3D.

 

Set your goals high, be realistic about deadlines and always make sure you manage peoples expectations; there's nothing worse than promising the earth and then not being able to deliver it.

 

Watch lots of tutorials, ask loads of questions on these forums. What is it that you feel in particular is holding back your images/work? It would be far easier to offer advice if we knew which areas you needed to focus on.

[williamcai]

Hey guys, thanks for the replies. I didn't want this thread to be about me only so that's why I asked a more general question to perhaps help everyone who's beginning on this path.

 

What happened to me is that I know I will not deliever by the deadline that was is set by my employer. I started working there 2 weeks ago, first job as a full time arch viz, and even though he has been giving almost nothing, I am still struggling. Most people are impressed with my porfolio, but the thing is that they dont know how long it took me to make it to a quality that I am happy with. (my speed is maybe 1 good image a week and that is if you dont change anything in the design)

 

In the design firm which I am working for, I can not use photoshop (which I heavily depended on) because they need to quickly see the changes if they changed the material / camera angle. My material looks good because I post alot, not because I gave good settings...My modelling skills in Max sucks. I relied on modelling in Rhino / Sketchup then importing into max, which is REALLY counterproductive whenever there is a change. I want to now do eveything in MAX.

 

So today I snapped because I know I can not deliever what they want (didnt want to screw them over until it was too late) so I just asked to quit. My employer is a nice dude, and asked me to just chill for a day and think about what I could do for them. Initially I came onboard as a paid employee but because I can't deliever, I dont think it is fair to ask them to pay. I dont know whether I should stay there as an unpaid intern just to learn or should I learn at home.

 

I really like this career path so I am willing to do alot for it.

[Chris MacDonald]

Well there is nothing wrong with the Sketchup to max workflow, but you are right in that changes can be a real pain.

 

I think perhaps you need to impress on your employer the time that it takes to do things properly, and that you need some time to learn 3ds max. I always found that I learned best by jumping in at the deep end and totally immersing myself in something I knew nothing about and didn't stop until I had learnt it.

 

As for the photoshop/doing things in post; this is fine when a design is fixed, but you really should start thinking about doing as much as possible within the render as it will save you so much time in the long run, and minimize the amount of post production you have to do afterwards. Learn to set up shaders and texture things properly.

[williamcai]

Yeah, it is only after working there that I realised that these were major issues that I have, but the question still remains...

 

Which way is the best to learn? Should I work for free or should I learn at home?

But at the same time when I think of working for free, should I work for a larger firm or a small firm?

 

I will graduate at the end of the year but I want to be work ready in this field (I'm a Master's of Architecture). I am much more keen on Arch Viz than being an Arch Assistant...

[Chris MacDonald]

Neither, you have a job. Keep it. They hired you on the basis that your portfolio contained good work.

 

Talk to your employers about it, because by the sound of it you can produce images that they like, but they take longer than you want. Most employers don't want to let good people go, and would much rather let them train up on various software than have to go through the recruitment process all over again to potentially find someone not nearly as good.

 

Have a chat about how long you think things take, and how long they want them to take and find a decent middle-ground compromise that produces passable results in a shorter timescale than usual, thus removing a little pressure from you and perhaps giving you time to invest in learning the tools of the trade.

[williamcai]

Much thanks for your valuable insights =)

[heni30]

When it comes to learning you are only learning when you push yourself beyond your comfort zone. There is a threshold where you are overwhelmed and you just give up and walk away. It sounds like you're teetering on the edge.

 

As far as changing your situation, that is totally up to your boss and he sounds like he has confidence in your ability and integrity. So let HIM decide if anything is going to change in your job situation. And practice makes perfect so you can spend weekends working on your technique - whatever you feel your weaknesses are.

[Scott Schroeder]

Yeah, but when you are constantly slammed at work the last thing you want to do is go and screw around with Max on your night or weekend. You need to rest away from the software as well or risk a permanent burn out. Truth be told, you will never know when you are good enough. If you think you are good enough, your career is over and stuck in neutral in this industry. You are always learning and trying out new things.

 

It sounds like you are in a tough spot. You need that extra time to learn and get your feet wet, but your employer is giving you a schedule under the expectation or assumption that you are already an industry vet. The big thing you have to watch out for is learning under the gun and relying on bad habits just to get things out the door, as often times bad habits are faster than good ones.

 

You've only been there 2 weeks and you are barely an almost fresh minted grad, what would they expect? Hell, it took me 2 months to fully get in the groove to where I could work at the actual schedule pace and not trainee pace at my first full time viz job back in the way back days.

 

NEVER EVER WORK FOR FREE! You devalue yourself and you devalue our industry. Your time is worth more than 0, so be paid for it regardless of your perceived skill level.

 

Shall I post this again?

[marius e]

When it comes to learning you are only learning when you push yourself beyond your comfort zone. There is a threshold where you are overwhelmed and you just give up and walk away. It sounds like you're teetering on the edge.

 

As far as changing your situation, that is totally up to your boss and he sounds like he has confidence in your ability and integrity. So let HIM decide if anything is going to change in your job situation. And practice makes perfect so you can spend weekends working on your technique - whatever you feel your weaknesses are.

 

William, I was in the same situation when i started out!...Thought I had it all covered and that I knew what I was doing. I have done a couple of houses and exhibitions as moonlight work and then took a job at a very large firm doing massive work eg. Casinos, city's, palace's etc (WAY OUTA MY LEAGUE) but I thought its all the same, BUT IT WASNT!!! My first Job then was to do an interior for a casino, that was when I bombed and realised this is very different.

 

I did well (IMO) but the boss was pissed and said it looked like crap, if it doesnt workout then Im no longer the 3d guy.....so then I just got stressed and instead of focusing I was more concerned about impressing them and the fact that I might not be able to do this job now and I dont have the experience and worrying, everything I did took ages to finish even the smallest changes like chosing colours etc...........

 

Long story shortened, my boss then called me in on deadline day and he still wasnt to happy with the work and said that I have to go back to interior department, I refused! Told him that I can do it, so he said ok, maybe we gave you to much to do, so he gave me a smaller job, I impressed the crap out of them with the smaller job, and in turn doing something smaller in a professional environment boosted my confedince in myself and their confidence in me, from there everything panned out as I wanted it to. Im telling you this because its the same scenario......YOU ARE NOT doing this for them, you are doing it for yourself, KEEP THE JOB, calm down, relax and take a brake to think clearly about it, you have a chance now to learn this. Learning at an institution etc isnt gonna help that much, professional pressure cant be taught...

 

Good luck

[tecton3d]

Yeah, but when you are constantly slammed at work the last thing you want to do is go and screw around with Max on your night or weekend. You need to rest away from the software as well or risk a permanent burn out. Truth be told, you will never know when you are good enough. If you think you are good enough, your career is over and stuck in neutral in this industry. You are always learning and trying out new things.

 

It sounds like you are in a tough spot. You need that extra time to learn and get your feet wet, but your employer is giving you a schedule under the expectation or assumption that you are already an industry vet. The big thing you have to watch out for is learning under the gun and relying on bad habits just to get things out the door, as often times bad habits are faster than good ones.

 

You've only been there 2 weeks and you are barely an almost fresh minted grad, what would they expect? Hell, it took me 2 months to fully get in the groove to where I could work at the actual schedule pace and not trainee pace at my first full time viz job back in the way back days.

 

NEVER EVER WORK FOR FREE! You devalue yourself and you devalue our industry. Your time is worth more than 0, so be paid for it regardless of your perceived skill level.

 

Shall I post this again?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]49724[/ATTACH]

...that attachment is epic.

[heni30]

One important aspect of working free missing in this chart is for YOUR benefit. I guess it doesn't apply to renderers as much as say architects, but it could.

The archetypical image of this would be Frank Lloyd Wright at the drafting table with all his disciples gathered around him. I visited a couple of well known architects' offices in Europe way back when and I was talking to one architect (not a novice by any means) at a "Star-chitect's" Switzerland office and he had come from Mexico City to work for free just to be in the presence of this guru.

 

If you're young and have no commitments why not volunteer to empty out the waste paper baskets at the office of someone you really admire.

Edited July 16, 2013 by heni30

[Justin Hunt]

Also remember that doing design development is VERY different to doing marketing images. You dont need or should be doing all the bells and whistles stuff, at least not yet. At this stage it is all about the design and getting it to work, it is not about the rendered image. Once the design has been firmed up, then you can get into making pretty images.

 

Dont sweat the small stuff, if the glancing highlight isn't just right, dont waist 2 hours getting it right, it doesn't matter and very few people will notice.

 

It can be very frustrating not being able to produce work worthy of the Peter Guthries of the world, for every image. You just have to remember that you are part of the design process. The design/ model you start with will not be the same one you finish with, especially once you get into doing options of options with multiple views of each.

 

Being able to manage your and your bosses expectations is tricky, but vital. If you feel that there isn't enough time, say so and be clear about what you can do in that time. As you get more experienced you will get quicker and your quality will improve.

 

Time is money, more often than not there isn't time or budget to spend ages on each image. You will soon learn how far to take the model before it is good enough. Going too far too soon is just as harmful as not going far enough. If you are asked to do a massing model, do a massing model, not a model you could pull construction drawings off. Over time you will build up a library of objects which will speed things up.

[RyderSK]

To me it seems like you expected different type of work (mentioned by Justin the design/marketing difference) and are simply not compatible with this job. Honestly, I would quit, nothing wrong with that, unless you pretty much need that money right now.

 

I found out the same, I only ever worked in company for less than those two weeks, but it was disastrous experience for both sides, I burned out, and left. Spent some time, roughly 3-4 months learning hard on my own, and jumped on freelance career. I did since even start small studio and never looked back. I can't even imagine working under somebody anymore. The freedom, lifestyle, satisfaction and money are beyond comparable to any sort of job in company.

 

Working on purely marketing/promotional high-end stuff, is also so much more enjoyable/satisfying experience than helping the design team with the design by endless iterating as technical monkey.

 

I went through the same emotions too, I was drained and downright depressed about my performance, now imagine you might be feeling this way for upcoming months. I would suggest following gut feeling (and leave). There is just so much work out there, there is no need to work in any company.

[williamcai]

To me it seems like you expected different type of work (mentioned by Justin the design/marketing difference) and are simply not compatible with this job. Honestly, I would quit, nothing wrong with that, unless you pretty much need that money right now.

 

Working on purely marketing/promotional high-end stuff, is also so much more enjoyable/satisfying experience than helping the design team with the design by endless iterating as technical monkey.

 

That was exactly what my friend said when I first started but I was under denial.

Going back today in 3 hrs and that is what I will probably do.

 

Edit: I just looked at your porfolio and its amazing... that's what I want to do!

Edited July 16, 2013 by williamcai

[Fooch]

Hi william.

 

I agree with everything juraj says.

There are great teams doing what you want to do now. Or if you are good enough, think about starting your own thing.

 

However do note, that we expect pretty great stuff in a short time here too.. the timelines never changes. We just get better at it.

[williamcai]

What are the time frames you guys set for a project? 1 Week an image? 2 images / day?

[Chris MacDonald]

What are the time frames you guys set for a project? 1 Week an image? 2 images / day?

 

 

I have to say i wonder the same when i look at the "high end", brochure style stuff. I tend to be most involved in the design process.

[RyderSK]

What are the time frames you guys set for a project? 1 Week an image? 2 images / day?

 

I don't think anyone will answer with definite number as it is so individual, based on so many factors. It even greatly varies in individual projects by same author.

 

I've done 2 images in day, same as my recent job took 2 months :- ). There is strong misconception every client nowadays needs it right away for zero budget ("yesterday was late" and "I only pay half" like mentioned in thread recently here). There are plenty of clients willing to wait for 1-3 months and pay for such duration. It's just that the market changed greatly and 3D became necessary and helpful for so many new type of clients which meets with certain disrespect on this website, which itself considers super "hardcore architecture" hence the rather stupid (imho) acronym "arch-viz". Once you free your mind of this cage, you will find endless oportunities and steady supply of great money.

 

We live in great times actually and it will only get better.

[Nic H]

yes quit right away it sounds like a thankless design development rendering job - aka - drafting...

 

you wont learn enough to make marketing images there and you will end up developing terrible skills and shorcuts that will take a long time to unlearn if you ever want to work outside of an architecture practice.

[harryhirsch]

"More importantly I don't / can't even improve because I have no time to improve as I need to force myself to use what I know just to try meet the deadline rather than learning new techniques.""

Well its a job and not a learning center, realxe, its ur frist month. And you are learning. U have to do all in 30% of the time now right? If u want to learn more take the files home and try.

 

"'Do people start off learning at home first until they've become "good" or do you guys start working in a firm as an apprentice and learn off a pro? ""

yes, after work people try out things at home, pro is a big word, most people have good skills after graduation, they get a job, they start as junior, not that high pay but people in the office should help and support juniors and new staff anyway.

 

"Initially I came onboard as a paid employee but because I can't deliever, I dont think it is fair to ask them to pay. I dont know whether I should stay there as an unpaid intern just to learn or should I learn at home."

well, if you can't deliver (anything at all ?) there should be no salary. But you should be able to determine what u can do for ur Boss: 3d models of xyz type in what time? but all that stuff belongs in the first interview.

 

""I started working there 2 weeks ago, first job as a full time arch viz, and even though he has been giving almost nothing, I am still struggling.""

""My material looks good because I post alot, not because I gave good settings...My modelling skills in Max sucks. ""

""and even though he has been giving almost nothing, I am still struggling.""

 

Sorry but ur r not ready for fulltime: u cant apply materials?, u cant use max? u struggle with small work? Well, the I would start as an Intern.

""I will graduate at the end of the year but I want to be work ready in this field (I'm a Master's of Architecture)"

Ditto! But no one cares about degrees as u know now, and most people are not really "work ready" after university...but no boss should bang a whole project on a junior with out guidance or support.

 

""I am still struggling. Most people are impressed with my porfolio, but the thing is that they dont know how long it took me to make it to a quality that I am happy with"

Your boss should have asked u that and you should have told him that in the Interview.

("this quality: 6 days with sketchup and Photoshop")

 

If I were u I would tell my boss what I can do to help, ask him if you can work your way (you can not learn Max in a month) and work there untill u r graduated...Learn Max at home, after work and on the weekend (but get enough sleep) And you are not working for free: you get skills, portfolio projects and a letter of recommendation (Yes people here say you deserve money but then you should know for what you deserve payment).

Learn the business in your current office, do the learning/mistakes there.

After graduation find a bigger company that actualy has junior positions.

 

No offence ment, but imagine you are the Boss of ur current company.

It should be a win-win..for your Boss and you.

[williamcai]

Hey guys, thanks for all the feedback and I have already quit now, and to be honest I think it was a really good decision. Now I just do what I am capable of doing with ease, i.e drafting for an architect. BUT he's giving me all his jobs that he liked but never got built to do in my spare time. No deadlines, and just count my hours that I think was worth. SO GOOD.... =)

[Chris MacDonald]

Lucky boy!

[Nic H]

sounds dangerous

"count the hours i think it was worth"

 

wouldnt you prefer to do your own work to build up a folio?