To send the model or not

[jamesmacdonald1]

Hi Guys, First post. Just wondering what you would do. A company who made me (and a lot of others) redundant last Xmas is asking if I have a 3D model of a project I worked on. They need it to send to an external freelance visualiser. I have found the model. I'm guessing they've lost all my work on the server.

 

Now here's the thing. I'm currently freelancing. Or should I say looking for freelance work as the 3 week contract I'm working on ends today. I guess I'm just a bit miffed they didn't ask me to do it and thinking why should I go to all the effort and bother of collecting together all the maps, ies, hdri etc so some other visualiser can have a much easier time of it and get all the reward.

 

Ignoring all the legal ownership arguments and redundancy questions (they obviously still have a need for my role) I'm just after gut reactions. Send it or no. I'm thinking it comes down to karma as plainly someone else is getting the business. :-)

[Maxman]

If they arent putting any work your or suggested they might- big NO. They are the competition they are just trying get free assests off you which equates to Time/money. The model might take someonw a week to do £150 a day = £750 would you give someone that if they asked nicely?

Many large companies bully artists as sometimes as they are not always business savy dont let it happen.

Hope it all works out

[Corey Beaulieu]

There was a similar thread not long ago:

 

http://forums.cgarchitect.com/71978-client-has-asked-model-what-do.html

 

I think that you are in a crumby position. If you are good to them, you may get the next gig, but if you are, you may lose an opportunity now. You could sell it to them or just say no, or a popular approach in the last thread was to delete all lighting and materials, replace with a standard grey and send it. It isn't likely that you will get this gig. They probably have a contract with someone.

 

Gut reaction: Delete the materials and lights and send it telling them that you would like to get the call next time. May even, for spite, collapse to mesh> explode each element to object> and throw them all on the default layer. It's your call how far you want to take it, but I don't see much future in not helping a client.

[Tommy L]

If you're miffed then dont help them out. If you think there's a relationship worth saving then send them the file. If youre feeling devious then send a sabotaged file.

[John Dollus]

You could sell it to them

 

In his case, that isn't an option. He created the model while being a fulltime employee of the company. They own the data.

[Tommy L]

In his case, that isn't an option. He created the model while being a fulltime employee of the company. They own the data.

 

Im not too sure about that. If he has the file he either ripped a drive to take their assets home on being fired (theft) or was asked to work at home on his own time whilst an employee. Either way, I think he could sell it if they'd buy it. Frankly I dont think the legality is a practical consideration either way as it would never be prosecuted.

[Scott Schroeder]

If you were working in-house for them and keeping all of your stuff on the usual servers, don't send it. If they can't properly back their stuff up, then I wouldn't help them out.

 

If you were working at home for them, then I'd probably be inclined to begrudgingly send it as it is generally you who stores the file on your local system.

 

Now, how you send the file, if you send the file, is another topic. I'm all for the grayscale model and let the next person figure out lights and materials.

[salvador]

Doesn't it come to an initial settlement issue? I mean, whether he was hired to deliver renders or to make models and deliver renders; one not implying the other; so, just to be clear about who owns the model and its assets.

 

Quick personal exp.: I always agree with clients/employers that we both keep a copy of all the CAD files since it's their property but with my authorship, we are both entitled to have those files; yet I've never been asked to deliver my 3D models and assets.

[Francisco Penaloza]

If you want to go the legal way, you need to send them the model, it is their property, now textures, proxys and all that mambo jambo it is yours. If you bough those asset you are not authorized to sell them or share them any ways.

The best thing that you can do as mentioned early, is just send the Mesh in all it gray glory, no mats, no lights. and right after that call them, or go and talk to hem and straight ask them why they didn't give you that job, not in a complain tone, just as a friendly supplier that it is offering his business, ask them if it was quality issue? time? price? and see and propose any arrangement that you both can work out to keep the business relation. Communication is a pretty good tool

[Tommy L]

If you want to go the legal way, you need to send them the model, it is their property, now textures, proxys and all that mambo jambo it is yours. If you bough those asset you are not authorized to sell them or share them any ways.

 

Why would there e a difference in legal ownership between the model and the other assets?

[John Dollus]

burn it on a dvd and tell them you will be happy to bring it by as you would like to chat a few minutes about (work, life, business etc).

It gets you in front of them to push for future work and you are being helpful to their current plight. You can use the face to face opportunity to inquire about other possible jobs/needs they may be aware of for you and discreetly ask about what sort of fee is involved with the current job. It's hard to turn down someone standing in the lobby as opposed to email and it reinforces the fact you can be in their office and responsive.

 

Take the high road. Doing anything blatantly shady like stripping it down will only reaffirm to them that you may be difficult to work with on anything.

[heni30]

The right thing to do would be to hand it over. The work is already done and it costs you nothing to give it to them. There's a reason why they chose somebody different. It would be beneficial for you personally to find out why.

 

If you feel they were unfair with you in general, you could take the vindictive approach and just say "That folder was deleted upon completion of the job and it hadn't been backed up;.......... bummer, man."

[Justin Hunt]

I totally agree with John, being helpful now will go a lot further for you tomorrow.

 

If you work employed by them then the model is theirs, if they bought/ supplied you with the textures etc , they own them. Any textures that you bough will be yours and you might not be able to supply them, but tell them so and tell them where they can get them.

 

I also think that getting face to face with them would be good too, it would give you the opportunity to sell your skills to them. If you burn them now your chances of working with them later are diminished. Stay in their good books.

 

jhv

[Francisco Penaloza]

Why would there e a difference in legal ownership between the model and the other assets?

 

If you work as freelancer, and you buy pre-made models, such, furniture , plants, cars and similar, all those product specify that you are not allowed to re-sell or share without permitting. now if some one send you to do a render of a house, that's their design, so they own any product that they pay for and the intellectual property of the design, in reality you should create a contract saying that you can use any image produced with their design as part of your portfolio and they can decline this, even make you sign privacy contract if they need it. I have done several of those :\

It is like you are a photographer, they hire you to photograph a building, they own the photos and negatives but not your camera, lamps tripods or so.

In our digital business, there is areas that seems kind of blurry, but it is normal that the renders are own by the person who pay for them.

[Tommy L]

If you work as freelancer, and you buy pre-made models, such, furniture , plants, cars and similar, all those product specify that you are not allowed to re-sell or share without permitting. now if some one send you to do a render of a house, that's their design, so they own any product that they pay for and the intellectual property of the design, in reality you should create a contract saying that you can use any image produced with their design as part of your portfolio and they can decline this, even make you sign privacy contract if they need it. I have done several of those :\

It is like you are a photographer, they hire you to photograph a building, they own the photos and negatives but not your camera, lamps tripods or so.

In our digital business, there is areas that seems kind of blurry, but it is normal that the renders are own by the person who pay for them.

 

Hmm. I think you are just guessing there, but Im just guessing that youre guessing!

My 'practical' take on digital property rights are that there are none, unless specified in a contract (aka 'possession is nine tenths of the law). The OP was a full-time employee, not a freelancer. If he had a contractual agreement with his previous employer then Im sure he would not have posted this question.

Any 3rd party purchased assets have a contract in the sales agreement with the 3rd party vendor and as such are really nothing to do with the original question.

 

The question is more a moral and/or business etiquette question than a legal one. Legally I think he can pretty much do what he wants.

[Francisco Penaloza]

Hmm. I think you are just guessing there, but Im just guessing that youre guessing!

 

Not my friend, I am not guessing here, (I only give my opinion when I am sure what I am talking about, if not it is a useless opinion right?)

now it is true that if there is nothing in paper anybody can say whatever they want, but even that, if you receive money for a service that's an agreement already. you'll find several laws that you though it was common sense, and sadly it was not.

 

Legally I think he can pretty much do what he wants.

again legally speaking nobody can do whatever they want

 

But yes the main point here is try to agree in a common sense solution than a just cold frustrated business solution.

[notamondayfan]

Why not just get on the phone, give them a call saying "you might have the files on an old harddrive somewhere" and then ask them if it's anything you can help with on a freelance basis?

 

Or perhaps they are being devious / sneaky, and seeing if you collected files from their server which you perhaps you shouldn't have done?

 

It's all very grey and murky, I'd just give them a call or visit them and see what the situation is.

 

Dean

[Dan Norfolk]

Why not just get on the phone, give them a call saying "you might have the files on an old harddrive somewhere" and then ask them if it's anything you can help with on a freelance basis?

 

Or perhaps they are being devious / sneaky, and seeing if you collected files from their server which you perhaps you shouldn't have done?

 

It's all very grey and murky, I'd just give them a call or visit them and see what the situation is.

 

Dean

 

You make the most sense Dean, i was faced with the same situation before and did exactly what you suggested and guess what? got some paid work.

[Reitveld]

Have to agree with Dean. The best way to CYA is to not give them anything. However if you are on semi good terms with them then an older or stripped down version of the model would be ok to turn over.

 

Note, that they may not give you any work on this or any new work. I've know a lot of companies that break ties with ex-employees. They will hire an unknown freelancer rather than go with a known ex-employee. Many reasons why... ranging from paranoia all the way to wacky legal justifications. YMMV

[Tim Nelson]

What's up with the OP? He has one post only on this forum, and never responded to all the helpful advice and opinions everyone has kindly offered. Smells fishy to me. Either that or really ungrateful!

[junglee]

Not sure what your agreements were.

 

But I always disclose that my fee only includes FLATTEND JPEG and TIFF of the renderings, nothing live.

Any PSD, 3d Max files will be a separate charge.

If they want to tweak anything, they will have to go through me unless they want to go through the torture on their own.

 

I usually give them PSD for relatively cheap, but 3d max file is a big deal. I usually charge minimum of 3 times of the individual rendering cost for the model because they can potentially use my setting to create more scenes.

[tomelcott1]

Iv been following this topic with quite a bit of interest, as i am always very protective of my Max files as its taken me years to get to where i am, and understanding how to get to where i need to, and i dont think its fair of someone to request a Max file, and essentially just "rip off" my hard work. I agree with Jung Lee, if someone wants your Max file, they should pay more than the render costs, as they are taking your models, textures, and knowledge of the programme.

 

In saying that this topic is roughly 2 weeks old, what was the out come? Did u give the model over?