Macbook Pro Retina 15" or Lenovo w530 for Architecture School

[vy1]

I need help deciding between two laptops:

 

1. Macbook Pro Retina 15"

 

vs

 

2. Lenovo w530

 

 

Software that Ill be using:

 

-Rhino 3d

-Autocad

-Adobe Illustrator Suite

-Maya

 

 

a. Given the software, what should I look for into these laptops, run without any hitches/lags, can render faster, etc. ?

[Nic H]

well it seems like a waste to have to bootcamp to use autocad on a mac...

can you not use another piece of drafting sotware and then get the superior mac?

lenovo is full of spyware out of the box and will need formatting straight away

[vy1]

well if I get a mac I will be installing windows on it and use it entirely. it does seem like a waste in such a case, but the build and lightness of the laptop is hard to pass up.

 

i usually reformat laptops so bloatware is not a problem.

 

i just want to know which one is better for me to use.

[kevinolsen]

Do you have a budget? If so please let us know, it will help

[vy1]

i dont really have a budget.

 

i already have a desktop so no desktop suggestions.

 

laptops only

[kevinolsen]

At my school, it seems most people start on MBPs then move to Windows workstations later in their program. Day one its all sleek silver MBPs on everyone's desks...three years in most people end up with either a w530 or a Dell variant such as 4700 or 6700.

 

While better designed overall, the MBPs usually fall short because of their graphics cards. Since you start working in Revit, 3ds and Maya, the workstations fair better overall.

[vy1]

i see...

 

from experience, do you think the workstations make a huge difference in performance?

Edited August 11, 2013 by vy1

[kevinolsen]

On the models I have worked with in my comprehensive and advanced studios, yes I think so

[vy1]

i guess im sold on a w530 then ahhah

 

but a macbook is so coooolll

 

just love how light it is. i mean, if the macbook retinas can almost put out similar performance, i wouldnt mind making the switch

[junglee]

I'm not sure what's the benefit by using MBP under architectural programs other than being in the trend.

Using entirely windows on MBP seem like a waste IMO.

 

Also, for any intense work, you will definately notice the lag with laptop compared to a good desktop.

And I'm not sure how efficient you could work AutoCAD/Rhino/Max/Etc on laptops.

I can never work on any CAD programs with laptops due to small keyboard and monitor..but then I graduated about a decade ago so maybe I'm too old to comment.

I personally recommend a desktop with dual monitor. You want a workhorse that you can beat the crap out of hours after hours. Little cool laptops will piss you off.

[vy1]

i kinda do have a desktop as my workhorse but going back and forth to studio when I also need to bring the work to my apt or to take notes for other classes.

[Dimitris Tolios]

W530 will be day and night as far as OpenGL viewport performance due to utilizing a Quadro card. Complex Rhino and Maya models will love it.

 

Rendering is purely CPU, so it won't make much of a difference...you spent the $ for a fast i7, you will render as fast as a mobile workstation can.

 

Overall, the rMBP is nothing more than an over-hyped high-res screen that is more of a "anti-alliancing" tool than a real high resolution screen...in reality it has as much real estate as the older 900p 15" MBP. There are different scalling options where you can emulate up to 1200p, but then the whole "super-crisp" niche is lost. The 1080p on the W530 will look crisper than the 1200p "mode" in rMBP, and ofc you will have pretty fine pixel pitch already @ 15" 1080p. The "Advertised" as 1800p screen, can never be used as such, and to be honest it shouldn't. Something you will painfully realize if you happen to need Windows installed, and the UI scalling at 1800p will make them almost useless.

 

The real niche of the rMBP is how small and thin it is, and ofc its battery life. Both qualities are negative for a performance oriented portable workstation: because it is thin and because it focuses on battery life, it uses lower power components.

CPUs do good lowering consumption, so a high-end i7 is available, but GPUs don't. The 650M is nowhere near as fast as any GPU found in similarly priced machines. In fact the rMBP is overall faster than $800 laptops like a Lenovo Y500, only because it has a SSD drive. 200Hz in the CPU literary means nothingm, when it works overtime to aid the low/med class GPU emulating the 1800p scaling.

 

Secondary benefit (and also giveaway) on the rMBP being more of an efficient fashion statement / ultrabook or w/e instead of a powerhouse, is the small power adapter...always take that into account too when picking something for size and portability...the W530 has a monstrous powerbrick. Faster gaming / workstation latpops have even bigger ones. Power requires juice...no magic work-arounds, even for apple.

 

So, if you want a mobile computer that does "OK" in most stuff, much like a $800-900 PC laptop with dedicated GPU would, but being more stylish, thinner and lighter without thiking twice about the budget - the rMBP could be it.

 

If you want something that gets you through your hours @ school, but factors in the existence of a potent desktop @ home for the heavy stuff, then a Y500 laptop would do, much cheaper than the W530. GT750M is not "fast", but it is faster than the 650M with nearly 2x the memory bandwidth. The SSD caching is not as good as a full on SSD, but that is easily up-gradable to it. Can also swap the Optical Drive with a second HDD, or even a second GPU for some SLI gaming action, or doubling your GPU compute if you want to explore GPU accelerated rendering engines.

 

Lastly, if styling is not your priority, but you want a relatively portable 15" laptop with Quadro graphics, easy upgreadability (has 4x dimm slots), mSata, removable HDD and the such, the W530 is a no-brainer.

 

Ofc, if your desktop is not a PC, things change more in favor of the MBP, simply for not jumping between platforms, but the same works the other way around (ofc, if your desktop is an imac, it won't be that much faster than a laptop to begin with, so...running in circles it is).

[vy1]

thanks for that comprehensive reply!

 

i was looking into the lenovo y510 and it is a pretty sweet deal. the dual/sli 750m seems attractive, but im curious

 

dual/sli 750m vs one quadro k1000/2000m?

 

i went to an electronic store to check the lenovo y510 and the weight was a bit of a concern for me when you're holding a rMBP in comparison. the monitor has an inch wide bezel which is wasted screen real estate.

 

then i wanted to see how much of a difference between a 750m vs 650m

 

http://www.game-debate.com/gpu/index.php?gid=1246&gid2=689&compare=geforce-gt-750m-vs-geforce-gt-650m

 

and judging by the comparison it doesn't seem THAT much of a difference.

 

it seems the dual sli is more beneficial in a gaming environment than a CAD? someone school or elaborate more on this for me

 

im looking into the lenovo w530s too and i wish theyd get upgraded with the haswell processors already!

 

 

Thanks for the replies so far!

[vy1]

talked with lenovo chat and they said the w530 will have haswell processors by 2nd week of next month!!

 

i might pick up the w530s instead.........

[Dimitris Tolios]

At least for ULV versions (i.e. MacBook Air and other Ultrabooks), the Haswell line offers amazing improvement in battery life. For a more performance oriented machine like the W5xx, I don't know (I would still go for the newer processor unless there was a big price difference tbh).

As far as 750M vs. 650M, yes, it is the same chip, only "refreshed". My point was that the rMBP has worse hardware than $800 do in some areas - even slightly so.

SLI is a gaming thing, yes. Will do nothing for accelerating viewports better, tho it will work just fine for GPU compute nearly doubling the performance and also delivering a big hit to battery life when doing so.

 

Ofc, in many ways battery life is silly to be talked about in workstation laptops: when you are working (or gaming) with high performance expectations, I assume the machine will be plugged in, otherwise battery life will be around 1-1.5Hr @ full load, even with the MBP. Light Photoshop or Sketchup work doesn't count for "full load" ofc, neither is browsing. Heavy editing while streaming your fav music, and researching some 20 browser tabs - that's more like it =)

 

Also, certain energy saving features built into drivers and power profiles (at least in windows) do not allow certain components (mainly the GPU) to go "full-power" when not plugged in. Even @ 100% battery, certain programs (esp. OpenGL accelerated) where much slower in laptops I've used utilizing both Radeon Ms and Geforce GT Ms. Working on battery power for anything but browsing/showing stuff for a quick review was a pain.

 

At any rate, the Y5xx series is great for all-around, and a very good value.

 

The W5xx offers clear advantages, as access to swappable graphics (including Quadros), more dimm slots for you to upgrade RAM without throwing out your factory dimms, and a better screen option, tho I would not pay for it - doesn't worth it outside a controlled, calibrated environment.

Something I also dislike about the W5xx (like in the MBP) is that they lack a keypad, something I find myself using too often when drawing/modeling. The reason I never got to like 3D Connexxion controllers, or switch to those cute ten-key-less (that mix arrow keys with numpad) or short mechanical keyboards that remove it entirely.

 

If you are so concerned about color accuracy, buying a calibrator / colorimeter is a given before you invest in a serious screen. In school the in-house print-shop or the shop down the street that will just use their mis-calibrated machine to print w/e you to is the lowest denominator, so making assumptions around your "perfectly" calibrated screen means nothing. They will print w/e they want anyways.

IPS is nice to have as a viewing angle aid, which sucks in many laptops, but color accuracy will be out of the window as soon as you output your file to be printed or projected by a un-calibrated machine (what will be happening @ school whether you want it or not).

Edited August 12, 2013 by dtolios

[vy1]

so a quadro will improve viewports speeds?

[Dimitris Tolios]

so a quadro will improve viewports speeds?

No definitive answer.

 

Is it potentially faster?

Yes, depending on program and model complexity, a Quadro (or Firepro) might be a game changer, being multiple times faster than a GTX/Radeon, not just a mere % faster.

　

 

BUT - there is a a "but" - the need for a Quadro is kicking in after certain model sizes/complexity in the popular programs like Maya and 3DS that try to be "accessible" to more users, where - for example - Solidworks/ProE etc devs might not care so much or maybe the driver folks not throwing bones to gaming card users for that - or both.

 

　

Been there, done that, when we buy a new machine for school or whatnot, we immediately think we are going to be doing insane stuff, "complex models" (complex for us, perhaps even our colleagues, but maybe pretty basic for the "gurus" in the CG/DCC industry).

　

 

We also some times mistakenly think that our bottleneck is the GPU: say you are working on Rhino with grasshopper, and you produce those pretty 3D lattices of yours and add them to your 30 story tower and you start moving those attraction points for your reactive façade and your viewport struggles as you tweak stuff – it is not your GPU struggling, is the CPU thinking about the changes.

 

Wait, does that mean get the best CPU possible instead of the best GPU?

 

No, it means you need to realize that some stuff won’t change as drastically as you want, and when those do, you just get greedy and add just enough more detail to slow it down again. Its Blinn’s law, and why despite Moore’s predictions still standing and our PCs being doubling in power so often, we appear to be working just as much, if not more and harder on CG graphics.

　

 

At the end you have to economize, and get something that will do what you want, as efficiently as possible, within a certain budget. Doesn’t need to be perfect, but it needs to do the job dependably -> That’s architecture in the works right there.

[unclefarkus]

Definitely wait for Haswell regardless. I can vouch for the rMBP as it's what I use while on campus, but I also have a workhorse desktop at home that I also sometimes bring (and lock up) in studio during the busy weeks (which is more often than not when I think about it). If I could only have a laptop and was serious about the digital side of architecture (which I am), I'd probably go with the Lenovo...although it is definitely viable to get by on the Macbook Pro. It would be a tough choice though. The build of a computer is about as important as the OS and specs in my opinion. Good luck, but I don't think you can go wrong.

[felipezumaeta]

if you have the budget, the razer blade pro is pretty sweet:

 

http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-systems/razer-blade-pro

[vy1]

No definitive answer.

 

 

At the end you have to economize, and get something that will do what you want, as efficiently as possible, within a certain budget. Doesn’t need to be perfect, but it needs to do the job dependably -> That’s architecture in the works right there.

 

 

hhmm.....will a rMBP do just that? for me, its starting to. I think portability with sufficient power is what i want in a laptop, and it seems to me that a rMBP fits that description. I mean, if the rMBP can churn out in a similar performance to a lenovo w530, then i choose the lighter weight and the smaller ac adapter!

 

so Farkus - when youre using the rMBP, what do you think is a huge benefit? and where does it lack?

 

and do you have friends who have a lenovo that you can do a side by side comparison? if so, what are the ups and downs between the two?

 

 

too bad the 16mb memory of rMBP is out of my price range.....unless someone disagrees that we dont need too much ram I'll settle for the 8gb memory

[Dimitris Tolios]

hhmm.....will a rMBP do just that? for me, its starting to. I think portability with sufficient power is what i want in a laptop, and it seems to me that a rMBP fits that description. I mean, if the rMBP can churn out in a similar performance to a lenovo w530, then i choose the lighter weight and the smaller ac adapter!

 

so Farkus - when youre using the rMBP, what do you think is a huge benefit? and where does it lack?

 

and do you have friends who have a lenovo that you can do a side by side comparison? if so, what are the ups and downs between the two?

 

 

too bad the 16mb memory of rMBP is out of my price range.....unless someone disagrees that we dont need too much ram I'll settle for the 8gb memory

 

Ofc the rMBP is "enough"...never claimed otherwise...

 

 

Its issue is that it costs literaly 3 times more than a Y5xx series and many other laptops that are not that big or ugly, but perform the same.

And if lightness is what you are after, there are metal or carbon fiber cased lightweight Windows PCs, more powerful, with more upgrade options and still $1000 or so cheaper than the rMBP, which imho has 2x main streghts - vanity modifier + OS. If you are not using OSX as your main OS in any MBP, all it is left is pretentiousness. But that's - again - my opinion. Each one is free to have its own.

 

W5xx series and equiv. Dell models have a certain niche...mainly Quadro cards and/or 4 dimm slots - some have 2x 2.5" slots for full size SSD + HDD or HDD raid. Outside this niche, multimedia/gaming laptops are just as fast, if not faster, and cheaper.

 

If you are ok with A and kinda ok with B, any laptop - from the $300 economy ones, to the ultra-light MBA or ultrabooks - will take you 95% of the places expensive workstation labeled laptops will. Just make sure your decisions are clear and, and you don't use double standards to justify your wants. i.e. be honest to yourself before others.

 

From start to finnish of this thread, your heart gravitates towards the rMBP. It is not rational maybe, thus you have your afterthoughts and you are trying to throw in other parameters and options etc, but your "wants" are above your "needs". Some "wants" are priceless...your's is $2400...if you can, go for it

Edited August 13, 2013 by dtolios

[vy1]

hahaha

 

im looking at a open box rMBP from bestbuy for $1600 out the door. it's just 8 gb memory though...

 

im not spending 2000+ on a laptop! gahhahaha

 

its the only reason why im still considering a rMBP. however, i do get a bitchin lenovo for the same price or well under. like a faster CPU, 16gb of ram, ssd, a quadro card.....

 

and to tell you the truth, im on the fence now. ive seen the w530s and theyre awesome. i just to make careful decisions and i want all the opinions, suggestions, etc i can gather before i spend 1000+ on a machine

[unclefarkus]

Yes I should say that I agree with Dimitris' assessment of the "want" over "need". I should know, I also fell in that camp when I purchased a rMBP. I simply wanted it over the other laptops I considered because of the fruit on the front that matches my phone and tablet. It does fine for most things I've given it. Sometimes it's gotten super hot and loud when doing a rendering. Like super hot. It handles intense grasshopper scripts well. And modeling is pretty snappy and smooth.

 

That said, I have and use OSX for most of my tasks... Adobe, Rhino (for modeling), AutoCAD/Vectorworks for CAD... then bootcamp for rendering/grasshopper. (I don't use Max on this machine). If you're going to solely use Windows, I think it's harder to justify from a practical perspective. I simply prefer OSX over anything else when it comes to both casual computer use and post-processing...so that's me...with a little more "legitimacy". That said, you need to be happy with whatever you get. There's something lovely about holding the Apple lappy and if it boosts your ego, so be it. I know it boosts mine. We're designers; holding a machine that has been well designed is appreciated.

 

Assuming you aren't trying to create the most realistic and complex scenes that you see the talented people on this site post, I don't think you will lose either way. Just be happy with what you buy. In 2008 I purchased a Dell XPS when I was a freshman and ultimately ended up selling it (at a big loss) for a Macbook Pro because it was cool and all my friends had them. What a fool I was doing it for those reasons, looking back, but I don't regret it either.

 

All in all, if you can afford it, I think a rMBP will serve an architecture student's needs fine. I'm a TA and that is what we recommend to our students. But they are expensive and there are better machines out there from a hardware side of things as well. Oh and I have 8gb of RAM.

Edited August 13, 2013 by unclefarkus

[vy1]

Farkus -

 

you work with Maya on that mac too? how is it?

[vy1]

or a razerl blade!

 

http://www.razerzone.com/store/razer-blade

 

128 gb model

 

 

random question regarding the razer blade - alot of reviews said the screen sucks - the color, the resolution, etc.

 

if i plan to hook it up to an external monitor all the time while im working on my stuff, then the color and resolution should be better due to the external monitor right?

Edited August 14, 2013 by vy1