Advice needed newcomer's first Render PC

[orpvsilence]

Hello enthusiasts,

 

My compliments for this fantastist site, finally what I was searching for. I'm getting round for my first DIY Render desktop. Have just common knowlegde about computers but are getting more involved with this virus called visualisation.

 

1. My start budget wil be around €1-1.300 ( for the hardware )

2. I work with Autocad 2010-14 / Sketchup 2013 + ( going for the Vray 2.0 ( RT) ) / Adobe Photoshop - InDesign - Illustrator / Google Earth / and can't do without muziek.

3. Future : Revit Architecture / 3D max / Vectorworks / + Video editing ( vacation clips ) + small animations 30- 120 sec.

 

4. Needs;

4.1 Strong CPU

4.2 Mobo with proper extension needs for the future.

4.3 The right GPU for Vray 2.0 RT, think it wil save me lot of time / direct feedback

 

5. First Thoughts

5.1 CPU : i7-4770k vs i7-4930k ( expensive and maybe just an overkill ).

Someone also adviced me on to look in a Dual CPU 2x Xeon E3 - 1230/1240. Think it wil only make the build more expensive and don't know if it will really make rendering faster ? What are your experiences on this ? ( scenes 5 - 15 mlj polygones / materials / refraction / reflection / schadows / etc. )

 

5.2 Mobo : Gigabyte Z87-UD3H vs Asus Z87-Pro ( like the Btooth + Wifi ) vs Asus Z87-Expert ( + Thunderbolt, but can't see my direct advantage yet, future ?? )

 

5.3 GPU : MSI Geforce GTX 760. Believe Vray RT needs the cuda's for the viewport render ? Passing the internet believe some people even use 2 x GPU for this, really needed and why ?

 

5.4 Wil be installing Win 7 or Win 8. Any Preference for one and why ?

 

Believe these are my first and main focus points to tackel. Other important componets that contribute and that I overlooked for a proper Render PC ?

[benjaminbogaert]

Don't forget one of the more important things RAM, I use about 30gig and I could still use more lol.

I'm not really up to date ( I use AMD myself) but I think any I7 will do just fine, unless u want to start overclocking.

[orpvsilence]

Thanks for the reminder Benjamin, was thinking to start with RAM : 16 GB - 1600 / 1866. Expand later if needed.

 

Seen this is my first leap into DIY systems, i'm thinking why not go for the overclocking option. Understand that when taking this step, it isn't just a gamble. Start with small steps, thorough testing and Prime95 is your friend to keep the system ok. Believe the nice bios intefaces helps alot in the modern mobo's, for people like my to take the change.

 

Is you recommandation that AMD is a fitter for overklokking than Intel's i7 ?

[benjaminbogaert]

I'm running the AMD vishera fx-8350. ( Real 8core ) Not hyperthreated like Intel. my mobo is Asus crosshair V Formula, its designed for the bulldozer and to overclock. I think my system is pretty high end, but I don't think the Vishera is better then a I7 processor.

 

IF you are planning to overclock, make sure u have a PSU of at least 750 watt. OR u'l get power crashed when rendering in overclocked modus.

[orpvsilence]

Thanks for the PSU advice, i'll have to look into that aswell.

Isn't Hyper Threating where rendering benefits the most from ??

[RyderSK]

If your budget is ~1300 euros you will have to stick with haswell i7 4770k. You will not build solid (unless you will compromise with cheap PSU, Case, Motherboard,etc..everything people believe is not "important" ) workstation with 4930k under ~1700 euros.

 

Dual socket E5 v2 2xxx xeons are actually pretty good price honestly, but the sweet spot starts at around 5000 euros so you can just skip this and it's not possible to multi-socket 1xxx, but only 2/4/8xxx.

 

If you're serious about Vray-RT, then your only solution is gtx760 with 4GB ram from any vendor you fancy, there is really no other viable solution. Everything else is expensive, and anything under 4GB is unusable.

 

750W might be bit pushing it for even overclocked haswell and GTX760, mostly because good 750W with gold standard and ideally modular cables might be quite luxury for your budget but I don't know from head.

 

There are some perfect configurations on haswell workstations suggested by Dtolios on this forum or on his blog.

 

There is a lot of discussion here about Quadro vs GTX, seeing you plan to use lot of CAD software, this might be of valid interest to you, but with your current budget, I would skip again.

 

I honestly like Windows8 a lot, but it's so controversial for lot of people you might just try by yourself and see if you like it :- ) Best you can do anyway

 

And most important ? Good SSD disk. 180-240GB are at at extremely good value/price at the moment, just pick latest model with good reviews. I lost few disks because I didn't read those reviews and bought faulty versions of Corsair and OCZ few years ago, you never know which model is "lucky" so don't pick random one based on price/numbers.

[benjaminbogaert]

Be careful when using SSD's though, these are extremely sensitive to power surges, so keep in mind when u are gonna overclock you can have power surge spikes.

 

And accept for your most used programs do no put any valuable information on them. Better get a good external HDD. I use a LACI 3 terabyte Wireless HDD.

[orpvsilence]

Thanks Juraj,

 

I'm mostly in for a strong CPU. I have been checking the i7-4930K vs i7-4770K. I just wonder if the extra + € 230 for the i7-4930k isn't a overkill, though cinebench 11.5 i7-4930 k = 10,93 vs 8,08 of the i7-4770k. I also wonder if the S 2011 won't limit me to much in possible future expansions ?

 

I was also hinted to look at a Dual CPU 2x Xeon. I get the impression that not a lot of people use them, but a the start of € 5000 I understand why, we are talking pro's. I'll be happy with less for a beginner. Isn't it also, correct me if i'm wrong, that to get the full potntial out of a Dual CPU setup, als things have to work well. I mean the chance thing are not working optimal is bigger.

 

Yes, I really believe Vray RT can save me alot of time. Nice to hear that i'm on the right track consering Vray RT. The GTX 760 4Gb is + €100 vs the 2GB version. I believe I read somewhere that the 4GB will not give you full provit over the 2GB. If true, that would make money bad spend. Better to put it in a CPU or mobo. Believe i read something about 2x GPU voor Vray RT, for better overal performance. Is this true and if so, how ??

 

Understand kan I could do less than 750W, just look at less with a gold standaard ?

 

I was planning to go for a Samsung 840 Pro - 256 GB. Put my Win 7/8 on it with my applications ( Lot of recommandations for this on the net ). And put my current/working project on there on temporary basis. Beside this also 2x 2TB HDD. One for files / other for backup.

 

Question is it wise to go for the i7-4930K ?

Reading the benchmarks it will be theoretical 35% faster than the i7-4770K. That is alot. It's also alot extra cash. Also this being my first overclock CPU, ****ups, warranties etc., but that's the dive i'm in for. In practise I render before night and ready in the morning. Therefore I need stability.

At the moment i think i7-4770k wil also do the job, probally push its limits a bit more and also a good excuse to get yet another cup of coffee. But i still really fansy the i7-4930k.

[orpvsilence]

@ Juraj,

 

I have been looking into the i7-4930k ( 6 cores / 12 treads ) vs the i7-4770k ( 4 cores / 8 treads ). The i7-4930k has a theoritical 35% higher cinebench 11.5 than the latter if i must believe the benchmarks. Believe the cinebench 11.5 is the render speed !?? Still don't really understand where rendering takes its advantage in the CPU, the extra cores or the treads ???

 

Don't I limit myself with the 2011 socket for the i7-4930k for possible future upgrades ??

The i7-4930k also comes at + € 230 over the i7-4770k. My puzzler is ; What ever CPU it will be, its going to be my first overclock CPU. Just think its a lot of money for the first time around, possibilties for mistakes are high, warrenties, etc, but of course that's the dive i'm taking. Think both CPU are great, one faster than the other, but at this moment think that I'll have to take the i7-4770k to it's full potential, getting my setting right in Vray RT and than hit render for the night.

 

Also got a tip for the possibility on a Dual CPU setup 2x Xeon. Get the impression that it isn't used that much. Well, now know that the price is the show stopper and your talking major league. Besides the price, isn't a Dual CPU depended of a lot of different features to really get it's full potential of such a setup ?

 

Yes, really believe that Vray RT can save me a lot of time due to the direct feedback vs setting up / test render / setting up again, etc etc. Nice to know that i'm on the right track with the GTX 760. Please correct me if i'm wrong, but believe i read somewhere that the 4GB version ( + € 100 ) is acctually a 2x2GB and therefore in practice only 2Gb, that would be money bad spend !!

 

If i understand u well, I could do less than 750W, just take a lower PSU with gold standard ??

 

I'll lookup the Quadro vs GTX discussions. As far as I understand the Quadro is strong in building your 3D scene and swiffeling around. Future aspirations for Revit /3Ds max / BIM modeling will probably corner me to Quadro cards.

 

Was thinking for a Samsung 840 Pro-256 GB. Install Win 7/8 + applications and a copy of current working projects. See a lot of recommandations for this setup, seems the way to go ! 2x 3TB HDD, 1x3TB for files and the other 3TB for backup.

 

@ Benjamin,

 

Thanks for the surge spikes issue. Is this due to a cheap PSU ! You work with a NAS als backup ??

 

Wondering if putting a WD red, advocated as a special HDD for NAS wil also be suited for a desktop ?? Im thinking why not ?

[AJLynn]

Do you have experience with Vray RT GPU? It's a bit of a dog. You need two video cards to use it effectively - one to only run the display and the other to only run Vray. If you run Vray on the same GPU that runs the display, it will monopolize the GPU and you won't be able to get anything else done with the computer while Vray is running.

 

GPU rendering is also not the magic bullet some people think it is. Some renders will run quickly, others not so much. The GPU has the ability to run many simple, unrelated tasks at once, and only achieves complex calculations by running many simple ones in parallel. The result is that the render task is monte carlo only - completely unoptimized. Skillful use of regular CPU Vray in many or most circumstances results in a faster production render. RT-GPU is most useful for quick feedback.

[orpvsilence]

@ Juraj,

 

Thanks for the respons. Thought i made my decision on a i7-4770k (6c / 4th). Now the AMD FX 8350 ( 8c / 8th) pops up. Checked out Dtolios blog, wow he knows his stuff, really helpfull. He even mentioned this; "Note that despite the clear victory of Intel’s CPUs in single threaded applications, the FX-8350 remains competitive and even surpasses the Quad core i7s in pure VRay and Mental Ray performance ". Using Vray RT in SU I'm now leaning towards the AMD, comming with a friendly price !!

 

Seen alot of configurations where intel takse a prominant position. Are intel that much better in 3d modelling and rendering over AMD, and why ?

 

@ Benjamin,

Why is the AMD FX-8350 not better for you than the i7 ?

[Dimitris Tolios]

Be careful when using SSD's though, these are extremely sensitive to power surges, so keep in mind when u are gonna overclock you can have power surge spikes.

 

And accept for your most used programs do no put any valuable information on them. Better get a good external HDD. I use a LACI 3 terabyte Wireless HDD.

 

A good PSU and motherboard is required for any modern system, and pretty much guarantees that the chances of a HDD or SSD getting a "power surge" are very very limited. Sure, all and any component could fail, but I haven't seen/heard a single SSD die cause of PSU or mobo failure thus far.

 

All the SSDs I've seen failing are some very old models (i.e. 5 yo) those with Sandstorm controllers, and those being torture tested to their death.

Most SSDs today are far more reliable than the best HDD available, that said, backup of our "important stuff" is a no-brainer.

[orpvsilence]

@ Dimitris,

 

Due to Juraj tip, I'v visited you site / blog. Compliments on the constructive and clear elaborations on possible configurations, that’s a talent !!

 

I’m new to the world of DIY pc systems and getting more and more hooked on the virus called visualization. I work with Autocad 2010-14 / Sketchup 2013 + Vray ( RT ) / Adobe PS – Illustrator – Indesign. In de near future Revit / 3ds max / Vectorworks will be tackeld. I’d like to take full potential of Vray RT, because I think this can save me alot of time due to it’s direct feedback aspose to setting up / render / reset / render etc, etc.

 

I thought I’d made up my mind with the following setup;

Budget : € 1.300 ( inside components )

CPU : i7-4770k ( i7-4930k, think this is an overkill for my first overclock CPU )

Mobo : Asus Z87 Pro ( like the Btooth + Wifi )

GPU : MSI Geforce GTX 760 2Gb ( Vray RT )

 

Q 1 ; Roaming the net I get the impression that Intel CPU’s set the pace for Render workstations. You also point out the AMD FX-8350 as a CPU to take into account. I’m puzzeld and seems like a toss. But that’s of cource not the way to go. Could you point out, with my needs above, which one cuts the edge and why (or even another one, just to make me puzzel more.. haha ) ?

 

Q 2 ; Will the GTX 760 2GB be adequatly enough for my purpose with Vray RT? Or go for the 4GB version at + €100.

 

Cheers

[Dimitris Tolios]

"Note that despite the clear victory of Intel’s CPUs in single threaded applications' date=' the FX-8350 remains competitive and even surpasses the Quad core i7s in pure VRay and Mental Ray performance ". [/i']Using Vray RT in SU I'm now leaning towards the AMD, comming with a friendly price !!

 

Seen alot of configurations where intel takse a prominant position. Are intel that much better in 3d modelling and rendering over AMD, and why ?

 

I still stand by this quote: if it was a clear VRay rendering environment, I would say its a toss between an i7 and a 8350, with the latter gaining points being much cheaper as an initial invesment. Yes, it is less power efficient under full load, but that's not enough to cover up the initial cost in a timely manner.

 

But that is possible only if we were talking render nodes, where VRay is "all they do".

 

Workstations are heavily dependant on single thread performance too, so intel CPUs take a comfortable lead.

[orpvsilence]

@ Andrew Lynn,

 

Being new on this forum i've posted my answer to Juraj twice, both in a little different manner, being under the impression that something when wrong with replying. Thanks for still posting my reply's.

 

No, I haven't got any experience with Vray RT GPU so far. Want to upgrade to Vray 2.0 for SU. I believe the viewport render will give me a lot of benfit, due to its direct feedback, and want to take that possibility to the max. So production render will still be CPU based and " workflow " render GPU based.

 

I was under the impression that Vray RT was only working on the CUDA architecture for vieuwport render. Seeing the promo clip again (

) I'm wondering :

 

1. Take the CPU : i7-4770(K) / Xeon E3 1230 V3 + GTX 670/770 4 GB ( max GPU viewport render, direct feedback for settings ) Also like to have my monitor at high resolutions. Or should I save € 250/350 on the GPU and go for the high-end CPU;

2. Take the CPU : i7-4930K / i7-3930K + low end GPU ( frame buffer wil work slower, due to CPU multitasking Adobe CS 4-6 ?? )

 

@ Dimitris,

 

Thanks again for your constructive input, really appreciate your advice. Cheers

Edited November 14, 2013 by orpvsilence

[RyderSK]

Orpv, if your budget is really tight, don't think about the the 4930k. Not only is the CPU more expensive, the motherboard is likewise, even the cheapest one.

 

GTX760 with 4GB ram is not 2x2, this logic aplies to dual cards (with internal SLI) like 690,etc. 760 is regular card, the cheapest one with 4GB you can get. The next step from that would be Titan with 6gb, but obviously that's outside of your budget.

 

Take single socket Xeon 1xxx would not benefit you at all, .esp when you plan on overclocking, you might be better off with regular k version, it will simplify your life.

 

The money you save, invest in good case, good PSU and good CPU cooler. You will be more than happy with 4770k.

 

And because digital images are pretty nice bussiness, it won't be long before you'll buy 4930k because one computer is just not enough :- )

[joelmcwilliam]

This is good:

 

Intel Core i7 4770K Boxed

Asus Z87-PRO

(EVGA GeForce GTX 760 2GB Superclocked ACX Cooling with silence cooler, like Arctic Accelero Twin Turbo II) or MSI N760 Twin Frozr Gaming 2GD5/OC

Cooler Master CM 690 III Window

Crucial Ballistix Tactical BLT2C8G3D1608ET3LX0CEU

Cooler Master V Series V700

Samsung 840 EVO 250GB

 

If you want to overclock you cpu as high as possible get a corsair h100i.

 

http://forums.cgarchitect.com/74897-i7-4770k-8-mb-i7-4930k-12-mb-short-budget.html

Edited November 18, 2013 by joelmcwilliam

[orpvsilence]

Thanks for all your inputs thus far.

 

Doing some reading up I gave my self the luxury to expand my budget and think I've got my specs clear ( tot. € 1600 ). Of course with less, the job will also be done.

 

CPU : i7-4770 K + Cooler master 412 s

Mobo : Asus Z87-pro

Ram : G.Skill Ares 16 GB ( 2x8 ) 1600 / 1866 ( less high, better fit with the CM 412 s )

GPU : MSI GTX 770 4GB ( monitor Eizo EV 2736 wfs / res. 2560x1440 )

 

SDD : Samsung PRO 256 GB

HDD : 2 x 3TB WD Red ( 5400 - variable rpm ) / Seagate Barracuda ( 7200 rpm )

PSU : Be Quit L8 - 630W ( benchmarks ripple 200-600W all under the 50 mVtt )

OD : Asus DRW - 24 B1ST

Case : Fractal Design R4

 

There are just some things I'm still wondering about ?!

1. Is the PSU 630w sufficient enough ? Possible future expansion of 2 x GPU

2. Like the HDD WD RED's due to low energy consumption and possible use for later expansion for NAS.

 

What are you thoughts ?

[Dimitris Tolios]

The PSU is not a high-end design. It is not bad, but...if there are other options...

Look up availability on Cooler Master V/VS, XFX, Corsair and ofc Seasonic,the OEM behind the good lines of the aforementioned brands.

Exact line or even model is important, as sourcing of the parts / assemblyvaries with most brands. I.e. it being a Corsair, doesn't say much: manymediocre corsair units, many great ones. Same for Cooler Master.

 

630W should be enough for 2x cards, but not with a lot of headroom, thus it should be a good quality unit to minimize the chances of it blowing.

Ofc, everything can die at any moment: I had a seasonic made unit blow a capacitor @ day 2, without the machine even being stressed hard.

We are not talking indistructible. We are talking "the best running record" or close to it (i.e. what Samsung has with its SSDs, even if those are not always the fastest, but "up there"). If you are positive about upgrading to a second card, I would entertain a 700W to allow room for overclocking etc. For single card with just the 4770K and not extreme overclocks, a good 500-550W would work great.

 

RAM will work fine - good choice on the heatsink type, those are a gimmick anyways. 2x8 config allows you to upgrade to 32GB in the future, though if Sketchup is your tool, it won't be the driver for that...it is to remain 32bit for some time to go apparently.

 

GPU/Monitor: Sweet.

 

HDD: Choice based on consumption? Really? It is a tiny fraction of what your LCD backlite goes throught - probably the 2 extra GB of VRAM in your card just make up the difference between a WD Red and a WD Black - when the card is idling !

Kidding, the Reds are fine, but HDD consumption is irrelevant in consumer grade applications outside laptops/portable devices. It is a huge deal in data centers though.

Guessing you want to RAID 1 the pair, but remember to regularly backup your critical data on an external device regardless of the added safety RAID 1 gives.

[orpvsilence]

@ Dimitris

 

Took a look at you recommendations, really helpfull.

I think my single GPU must be adequate to do the job for now ( vray / su / cad ). Therefore i'm not planning to go for a 2nd GPU for an other estimated 2/3 years, as i'm just on the start of things. In practice i also don't see my self doing extreme overclocks. Taken these notes and your recommendations on the PSU the obvious thing to do is to swop the Be Quit L8 630w 80+ Bronze ( € 80 ) for a Cooler Master VS-Series 550w 80+ Gold ( € 81 ). The 92% efficienty and ripple 50-500w under the 13 mVtt are nice, as far as they are no sales pitches. When the wishes are necessary i will go for the PSU and GPU upgrade.

 

You're right that energy consumption of HDD, probably 2W vs monitor 62W is a no brainer. Therefore I was thinking of hooking my monitor on my solar panel, because now it is hooked up on my treadmill. LOL. You see, I love multitasking, combining work and exercise.

 

Yes, you quessed correct that RAID 1 the pair is the idea. Taken your comment on backing up data externaly, I'm thinking to go for 1 x 2TB HDD and backup on my current external WD 2 TB. This will save me € 145 and forget about the future NAS, and just wait for SDD TB to become cheaper for the next 2/3 years. Then upgrade my data capacity with SDD. This also forces me now to keep only the necessary.

Edited November 27, 2013 by orpvsilence