Project commitment. How is that possible to keep such a commitment?

[aristocratic3d]

HI,

Please sit tight. I am introducing here the worst project in my life.

2010:

My bid was $1200 for the total project. But it was my mistake that I could not anticipate the work load. the project had an work load of $15000 (fifteen thousands).

 

After spending 1-2 months I realized that the project has a greater work scope. I requested client to reduce some work from the agreed project. they did reduce some work. may be 20% of the total project scope.

 

However its still a big and detail project. I thought from the point of my religious obligation that I will keep promise and finish the project since I agreed. I planned to manage at-least an hour or two from my daily working hours. After working almost six months clients gave up and left me and took the project files.

 

May be A year later they came back again. they said they hired someone else but that guy did not work. Now they want me to work from where they left me last time. I gave $3000 new quote based upon the reduced work scope. But Client almost forced me to accept $2500.

 

Now they are asking to work more that was in the original work scope not in the reduced work scope that I quoted for.

 

What can I do? How can fulfill my obligation towards them?

 

What would you do in such a situation?

 

Thanks!

Abdullah

[harryhirsch]

"I could not anticipate the work load."

Why not?

 

"After spending 1-2 months I realized that the project has a greater work scope."

after 2 months?

 

"After working almost six months clients gave up and left me and took the project files."

No money in between? and how can he just take the files? You worked in his company?

 

"But Client almost forced me to accept $2500."

Forced you?

 

"How can fulfill my obligation towards them?"

What obligation? He walked out on you remember? And now he wants more then he signed for!

 

"What would you do in such a situation?"

Say no and work for another client!

[aristocratic3d]

I could not anticipate the workload because I never took such a big project. I did not look through the project scope deeply. That was all my fault at the very beginning. Client had an almost 80% complete description of what they want. But it was lack of my experience with such a big project. And I am sorry for that.

 

"After spending 1-2 months I realized that the project has a greater work scope."

after 2 months?

Yes, because the project was to export thousands of rendered images out of the 3D model. So I completed the modeling part in first two months. And when the time comes to export rendered images I found that its hundreds of them. But I kept working like a fool without calculating the time required to finish the project. I just did not want to give up for two reasons. one is my commitment and another one is client already paid some fund and lost enough time and it was too late for them to hire someone else for the work.

 

"After working almost six months clients gave up and left me and took the project files."

No money in between? and how can he just take the files? You worked in his company?

He paid some fund. since I was responding slow because I put the project in third priority due to its budget (I have to earn my livelihood.) they become upset and wanted to try some one else. I delivered the source for new artist to work from.

 

 

"But Client almost forced me to accept $2500."

Forced you?

Yeah if I would not take the project then they would think that I just cornered them and they dont have any other way except me. as they already tried some one else and that did not work.

 

"How can fulfill my obligation towards them?"

What obligation? He walked out on you remember? And now he wants more then he signed for!

Yes thats true but I am the one who is responsible for all this. I misquoted the project. they are programmers by profession. they did not have any idea about the project scope. So I just wanted to release them from this pain that was caused by me.

 

 

"What would you do in such a situation?"

Say no and work for another client!

 

Thats easy! I can do that. But what will happen to them. this full three years and money will go in-vain.

 

I gave them a quote for their request. I planned to proceed further only if they accept. As they also should understand that this project has a huge work scope. For them will it be legal to ask to work more for free knowing that it will cost me 25-30 hours just for that mistake I made at the beginning? yes I quoted only $1200 but now they know that this quote was nothing compared to the work scope.

 

Let me know if I am in right position.

 

My lesson from this project is simple. I never quoted for a project that I could not see the end result before I begin.

 

Thanks for your help.

[Scott Schroeder]

The client didn't force you to accept the lower money. If you know they are a bad client, turn them down. If they try to play a pity party on you and say they went somewhere else and that new person didn't work out, you simply tell them, "I missed the part where that is my problem." Maybe the reason the other person didn't work out is because the client is indeed terrible to work for.

 

You don't run a charity here. Who cares what will happen to the client? You need to be concerned what will happen to you! It sounds like this isn't your primary job, or even secondary if you originally had this job 3rd in line. Will working on this hurt those other things in your life? It already sounds like you can't fulfill even this new request so they'll just end up taking the project away from you again.

 

I don't see any outcome in which this doesn't end badly. It sounds like your heart is in the right place, but this is also business and sometimes doing business calls for a tough, cold, iron heart.

[Devin Johnston]

I'm still trying to figure out how you agreed to do thousands of renderings for $1200, is that a lot of money where you come from?

It's hard to say what you should have charged on this project without seeing it but I think $15,000 is really low. If you've spent 6 months working on this for $1,200 I'd say you more than fulfilled your end of the agreement, it sounds like they either changed the scope on you mid stream or you just completely missed what they wanted from you. In either case the client needs to take some responsibility for this, they must have known your proposal was massively under priced. They probably intended on taking advantage of you from the beginning, I'd get away from it unless they're willing to pay you for all past and future work at the rate you should have originally charged.

[heni30]

As indispensable as you think you are, you are not. What would happen if you broke your arm? I'm sure they would have no trouble finding someone else. Life goes on.

 

If the 2nd guy didn't work out, I'm sure there are dozens out there to fill your place; although maybe not for your rock bottom prices.

[aristocratic3d]

HI, Thanks all for your suggestions. Its really helpful. I think I should simply deny them.

I was feeling guilty because of my under quote. And they were frequently referring to the originally agreed works cope and price both. their common argument is, " we spent three times of the original budget." and " we reduced the works cope and yet you want more money?" etc.

Anyway, I think I should not feel that way. Because client should not choke me just because I agreed to work for $1200 after realizing that this is going to be bellow slave wage

 

Again thanks for your support! I am feeling released.

[Crazy Homeless Guy]

The proposal you submitted for this job should include the "Scope of Work," "Deliverables," "Schedule," "Project Fees," and signature line that states "Acceptance" of proposal. These areas clearly outline the services you are going to perform, what you are going to delivery to them, and when. Anywork beyond the scope and deliverables is an additional service which will require additional.

 

At some point it must have been mentioned that the project would require 100's of renderings as the deliverable. This number should have been stated in the proposal if it was not then the client is just as much at fault as you are.

 

Frankly I would cut ties from this project and learn form your mistake. I don't like advising people to do this but it sounds like the whole thing is f'd anyway.

 

Don't feel guilty. As I said above your client is as much at fault as you are if the terms of this project were not identifies in the proposal.

 

You client received much more than $1,200 of work. As mentioned above, even without knowing anything about this project I would say that 15k was way to low as well.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Crazy Homeless Guy

[aristocratic3d]

BTW, the rendering actually are done automatically by batchcam2. Also those renderings take only 40-45 sec per image on average.

But the challenging part was to reach to every part and each camera every time when they send a modification.

I could also make the job much easier if they would come to me first. they prepared the web first and then gave me the naming structure they need. They also added a lot of thing that does not have any impact on the business. I would suggest them to leave those options to make the project more simple.

[benjaminbogaert]

Might be because i'm fresh behind my ears, but if your renders only take an average of 40-45 seconds then those 100 renders shouldn't be that hard to achieve, even when you have to make some minor adjustments.

 

At a minute a render that price doesn't seem half that bad.

[Guest dialog]

Might be because i'm fresh behind my ears, but if your renders only take an average of 40-45 seconds then those 100 renders shouldn't be that hard to achieve, even when you have to make some minor adjustments.

 

At a minute a render that price doesn't seem half that bad.

 

 

I disagree... it could take 300 hours to do a model...who cares how long it takes to render...unless its so long you need to outsource to a farm.

[notamondayfan]

I agree with Travis, you've gotta learn to say "no" and walk away sometimes.

 

I think in this instance it sounds like the clients expectations aren't in-line with what you can produce, and this is where the issue lies. If your client isn't very computer literate, then if you tell him you can produce 1000 images for $1200, then they aren't going to question it. Perhaps they think "the computer does the hard work"?

 

I've had projects where perhaps I've under-priced (not as bad as your instance mind), but at the end of the day I've cracked on, worked late and delivered the job, and chalked it down to experience. Pricing a job is a skill in it self, and you will make mistakes, either by going too high and scaring a client away, or too low and now earning a living.

 

Dean

[hockley91]

Just send them an additional services fee. Even if you agreed to the original amount, things happen during these projects. They are abusing you and they know it. You send them an additional services fee with a line item for why it's costing more. They will call you back immediately and then you tell them why. They have to understand that. If they don't, then they are 100% taking advantage of you. Have them pay you for your work so far and move on. It is not worth it. If they counter your viewpoint, just stick to your guns. Tell them you would love to finish this project for them, but it is going to cost more. You have to do this. You will feel so much more better about it looking back. What you are asking is not unreasonable at all.

[yourfather]

Be fair to yourself and your client.

 

1. Decide what your hourly rate is

2. Project the hours it will take to finish the job

3. DONT FORGET, these are CUSTOM images. No one else has them and no one else can use them. CHARGE THEM FOR EXCLUSIVE RIGHTS TO USE THESE IMAGES.

 

to give you an idea of how much exclusive rights cost clients, just go here

http://www.gettyimages.com

 

 

now search for a "Rights Managed" image.

 

Its horrible how many 3D artists under charge. They only charge for the labor but its the rights for the client to have a completely custom image and no one else in the world can use that image. Make sure your charging for this. And also make sure your client needs to PAY extra for the working files (if they want them). I charge 200% of the project cost as a starting point.

 

Stop under charging and PROTECT YOUR VALUE.

 

 

 

Edit:

 

I just did a quick cost check. This is the cost of using a Rights Managed image thats just a photograph. It isn't even a 3D rendering.

 

$ 3,000.00 USD

 

http://cache2.asset-cache.net/gc/200467502-001-living-room-in-modern-home-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=MB2OkV3pHYa4AkfFByzeuCakVp%2fjSfbrzAX5D5j3AINwE3fvjsC8EayN%2foC%2baECEG8Nf%2f7OCPCEgPTC%2fXQxOrg%3d%3d

 

 

You can compare other image costs by clicking on this link

 

http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Search.aspx?contractUrl=2&language=en-US&family=creative&lic=rm&assetType=image&excludenudity=true&p=modern+living+room

Edited January 16, 2014 by yourfather

[RyderSK]

[/url]

 

Impressive !

 

Agree wholeheartly, and ashamed need to say, I undercharge regarding rights management as well.

 

Interestingly, discussion was here few weeks ago ("Should I charge extra for NDA") with the general consensus being "well, client paid the default price, he can do whatever".

 

You don't want to start a TOPIC on this ? It could be absolutely briliant, I am now very hungry to hear opinions on this.

Edited January 16, 2014 by RyderSK

[yourfather]

Non Disclosure Agreement means that i won't show or talk about the project with anyone else. Confidential.

 

Client can do whatever they want with the image as long as they are paying the "Default Price" of full and complete rights. Basically, if a client wants to have EXCLUSIVE rights to an image…it costs more. And this is common practice. Just look at all the stock photography sights.

 

Now someone might say, "But the client asked you to make a custom image just for them. Of course they have exclusive rights." Ok, just make sure you charge them for more than your simple hourly to create the image. Its not just about hourly, its about VALUE.

 

An incredible designer might be able to make an incredible logo in two days. It doesn't mean that he's going to charge the client 16 hours of work. He's going to charge for the VALUE and exclusivity of that logo. Some logos go for hundreds of thousands of dollars.

 

Just something to be aware of. The work we create is worth more than just our hourly. Time to be a business man as well as an artist. Stick up for your work, protect its value.

[Jon Berntsen]

3. DONT FORGET, these are CUSTOM images. No one else has them and no one else can use them. CHARGE THEM FOR EXCLUSIVE RIGHTS TO USE THESE IMAGES.

 

 

Edit:

 

I just did a quick cost check. This is the cost of using a Rights Managed image thats just a photograph. It isn't even a 3D rendering.

 

$ 3,000.00 USD

 

http://cache2.asset-cache.net/gc/200467502-001-living-room-in-modern-home-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=MB2OkV3pHYa4AkfFByzeuCakVp%2fjSfbrzAX5D5j3AINwE3fvjsC8EayN%2foC%2baECEG8Nf%2f7OCPCEgPTC%2fXQxOrg%3d%3d

 

 

You can compare other image costs by clicking on this link

 

http://www.gettyimages.com/Search/Search.aspx?contractUrl=2&language=en-US&family=creative&lic=rm&assetType=image&excludenudity=true&p=modern+living+room

 

Really? This means an add of something like 60% on my single-still quote. How could one get that through without loosing the project to a low cost studio? I agree with the principle, but is this really achievable? Best thing would be yes, but what should I say to my clients?

[RyderSK]

I have unlimited usage rights incorporated in my contract (which is 16pages long and I am extremely proud of it) but there aren't any further options and I honestly never gave it much thought either.

 

But right now I know in month or two that I will re-work the contract.

 

Of course, the value thing is obvious, but more complex rights management options isn't and honestly, I've never discussed that further with clients for more than 2-3 sentences.

[yourfather]

Its in the estimate.

 

You can say

 

labor = $xxxx

Exclusive Rights = $xxxx

 

 

And for working files. Think of it this way. Your working files are your Intellectual Property. They have your custom formulas for materials. And your lighting and other things "YOU" have learned along the way. Things that make you a unique artist. You can't just give your intellectual property away. I will charge at least 200% of the project cost for working files.

 

My clients are completely aware that i am charging more because its a custom image for "them" only. No where in the world does the image exist. And they have all rights (exclusive) to that image.

[RyderSK]

The fact stays, that any bespoke work (regardless of freelance/studio status), can only be exclusive in nature, as the option of further re-selling the product is close to none. So mentioning it as "exclusive rights" is quite arbitrary.

 

The other thing, regarding shared files, unless it's upfront mentioned out-sourcing, that's pretty crazy thing by itself, isn't that ? I am pretty sure I would hardly ever do this under any conditions.

[RyderSK]

http://www.the-aop.org/information/usage-calculator

 

Usage calculator by UK standards :- )

 

So how you doing guys ? I've arrived to 50k pounds per image (All media, All world, 5 years of usage, normal right.. ?) :- D

 

In all honesty though, it's excellent source and article. If you study more deeply you'll find this interesting recommendation:

 

"Don’t assign copyright

Many clients still want to obtain copyright from the photographer for a variety of reasons, the main ones being a lack of ‘copyright’ understanding and the fear of having to spend more money for further use."

 

- See more at: http://www.the-aop.org/information/usage-calculator/explanation-of-b-u-r#sthash.jrjVdWX1.dpuf

 

It goes back to another discussion here where few members declared explicitly stating copyright in contract (arguably though, they were US based, so it differs very much from EU or international copyright understanding)

Edited January 17, 2014 by RyderSK

[CliveG]

Well at the risk of well and truly hijacking the original thread, I find all the reference to copyright and exclusive rights intriguing.

 

Everyone seems to be considering their visuals as the only component in question here, but in the case of, for example, providing visuals for an architect's proposed building, what about the architect's exclusive rights or copyright of their design that you have visualised, surely they have rights too?

 

As a designer I could understand how more professional designers than me could take exception to their design work being used for anything other than portfolio promotion and even then They would probably demand design acknowledgement.

 

My feeling is that sort of thing could turn into a difficult legal discussion unless it was all clearly agreed beforehand as I suspect a judge would determine that the architect has more obvious IP involved than the visualiser.

[RyderSK]

In all fairness, both creator of imagery and content of imagery should always be credited. And as we know, that rarely happens in vizualization (with exception to prolific companies (DBOX,..) and freelancers (Peter Guthrie,etc..)..). But there is nothing up to discussion about who owns SOLE copyright to imagery. It's the creator, and this ownership, atleast in Europe, can't be so easily shifted away. In contract, you specify Rights of usage, but not copyright. Of course, this relationship changes depending on bussiness structure through which the imagery was created/acquired, but we're talking strictly on behalf of direct relationship (creator is sole contractor, not employee or sub-contractor of agency or any other form).

 

Regarding off-topic, the original topic doesn't deserve attention anymore anyway...better discussions could be had. And discussing how to make the best possible terms for our work, is quite crucial. There is lot of fear and ignorance, esp. among freelance side. It's so much more interesting than endless Samples and GI talk..

[CliveG]

...It's so much more interesting than endless Samples and GI talk..

 

That's easy for you... as you understand all of that samples and GI talk, but it's like Slovakian to some of us!

 

I still think that there are question's of IP, when you are paid to provide a representation of somebody else's design, the original designer would hold the majority of rights over the content. These are intangibles remember so I feel the same logic as applies to photography can't apply here.

 

I'm sure you've looked into this in far greater depth than I have (or haven't) but I really can't see the legal system feeling that as a default the contractor holds more rights over the image than the designer that employed that contractor. Obviously if this is expressly agreed to in a contract between parties then that should hold, but otherwise my feeling is the law would side with the concept designer or architect.

[Nic H]

my glass is rendering black how do i vray