Bugga_Guy Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 Hi all, This is my first post - be nice! At my work I do alot of animation, but it was always submitted in Mpeg1/Quicktime, which was fine - it looked decent, and did its job.. However, now I been getting requests for "HIGH QUALITY" movies on DVD. The problem is how do you achieve the high quality?!?! As I am told, to make a DVD - you must compress it with an mpeg2 codec - which is fine. I create the final movie in adobe premiere using the MPG2 codec and volia! The only problem I am having is that the quality is not "HIGH ENOUGH" it always look a bit muddy/pixelated. I am told that fancy movies you see on DVD's uses MPEG4 technology/DIVX technology.. Now the problem is this.. Do I convert the animation with the divx codec and reconvert it to a mpeg2 then use a DVD movie maker, if so would it not be compressing the file twice? I render my animation frames at 720x480 - mainly tga files. So I know my animation can't be that low res. Any suggestions, links, software, that anyone knows about can help me to achieve the most perfect DVD? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtutaj Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 Here is a link with some explainations.. There used to be a site call codeccentral, but I believe that Discreet bought the site out for Cleaner. http://www.siggraph.org/education/materials/HyperGraph/video/codecs/Default.htm Hope it is of some help. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opus13 Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 one thing to check is http://www.videohelp.com/ its a rediculously comprehensive site with tons of info specifically geared for people creating their owns vcds and dvds. although it centers around extraction and duplication, there is plenty of info for content creators as well. question: when you author the dvd, what bitrate are you finishing at? also, a dvd can be set to cbr or vbr, much like an mp3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbr Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 Another option is to just give them the uncompressed file. I've done that before, just because I couldn't get a good result in the time I had, and it worked fine. I never do much video, so I don't really know for sure, but why is the quality lesser than what they want? All I can assume is that it's compressed too much. After all, and again, correct me if I am wrong, the MPEG formats are just to make files smaller, not better, right? That's at least the case with Divx - it's just a compression technology (and a good one at that). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugga_Guy Posted October 23, 2004 Author Share Posted October 23, 2004 Thank you all for the information is it very helpful.. There is no way to give an uncompressed movie, as they come out to be 12GB+ (I make a uncompressed quicktime movie for safe keeping). I am guessing that my problem is they type of MPEG 2 encoder that I am using - I always used adobe premiere's 6.5 EDL DVD codec (mpeg2) with offereing such poor results as well there is not much control on how the movie is compressed (unless I don't how to do it). There is good comparison list different of mpeg2 endoders at: http://www.videohelp.com/comparison.htm Cinema Craft 2.5 TMPGEnc 12j Nero 5.5 LSX 3.5 WinTV PVR atfer trying the free encoder TMPGEnc it opened new doors to encoding settings. I am starting to realise that setting could be the key. Would anyone know what the best settings are for Aspect ratios Field Order Video Type DV vs square pixels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Homeless Guy Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 instead of giving them an uncompressed video, you could give them a frame sequence. if i am sending something out to be compressed or i am archiving it for myself, i always write out a frame sequence. this allows me to easily recompress the footage if a better compression technology comes out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugga_Guy Posted October 23, 2004 Author Share Posted October 23, 2004 Well the main thing is that client is not interested in having a huge uncompressed file or a series of files ( it wouldn't even run ) - that's just for my purpose.. All that they want is a final professional DVD. It seems like when I render out a movie for dvd it looks the same as it were compressed as an MPEG 1, but its not (I can see the high quailty in the uncompressed version). When compressed with mpeg2, overall the quality its okay - but not perfect. There are some noise effects, and some fuzzy areas that show up in the movie which the client pointed out. I been looking frantically - everywhere I look I get information on how to make a DVD, but the key is how do you know how to compress the movie properly losing the least amount of quality (if not any), and what is the best way to do it? I started to hear about keyframe rates, DV, and all this jazz - it seems like there are a 101 things that it takes to make a sharp quality dvd. All I know so far is a DVD uses MPEG2. So with any dvd movie maker software, any movie that you have (no matter what compression it has) - it will be coverted to mpeg2. My problem is would it be natural to use an uncompressed movie in a DVD maker and let it convert it to an mpeg2 dvd. Or do I convert the movie to an mpeg2 first (using software like premiere) and then put it into a dvd maker? Or do I convert the movie using mpeg4, quicktime, or avi (or whatever) then put it into a movie maker letting it convert to an mpeg2? I heard that Discreet has a good product called "Cleaner" maybe its an investment to look into. Another problem is I hear about this DVD + and -, and if you burn a DVD, it may not play older home DVD players. If that is the case how the heck do they make commercial DVDs to play all dvd players? Seems the more I look into this matter the deeper it gets. Man I wish there was a Super easy way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Homeless Guy Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 I think high quality DVD's are compressed using hardware compressors, and not software. do a Google search. My advice, write out a frame sequence, and look up a third party DVD creatoin company that has evidence of being able to compress to the quality level you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugga_Guy Posted October 23, 2004 Author Share Posted October 23, 2004 Good point I will look - Everyone has been extremely helpful - I am very thankful to all. Well just curious, what software does everyone use to edit movies, codecs and DVD menu/creation software? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upshot Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 Actually the best quality mpeg2 is accieved with software not hardware compressors.... The only advantage to hardware compressors is that they can do real time conversion (ie as you record)... But then again software compressors can do the same thing provided you have a CPU with enough oomph (about 2.4 and up P4 wise). I use procoder (v1.5 and v2.0) to do my encoding. It has great quality results and a boatload of settings and filters. Many argue that TMPEGenc is just as good on the cheap. If I'm just recording stuff (tv programing or existing vcr or miniDV tapes) I use the PICvideo mjpeg codec through Iuvcr (capture prog) and get great quality (albeit around 5GB to 10GB per hour) this is sort of off subject sooo... If I do animations via 3dStudio I render a sequece of targa files (720x480 like you said if it's going to be a NTSC DVD, there is no reason to render it higher unless your looking for hi-res output via a computer monitor or projector). I'll take the files into premiere because I don't always want 30fps. Premiere allows you to set a time interval or frame interval for single frames and import an entire folder. Then I will render the video as an UNCOMPRESSED .avi (and convert later) or use the frameserver directly to mpeg2 via procoder. In procoder there are tons of settings so I can't get into the details here (you'll have to read up on that) but, using a 2_pass VBR with the quality setting at "master" produces very nice results. Procoder has the ablity to create a ready to burn file system (VOB's) or if I want to do some fancy authoring with menus and whatnot I'll use DVD-lab to create the ready to burn file system. Like others have said: dvdrhelp.com is a great resource. Also digitalfaq.com which is one man's opinion on it all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugga_Guy Posted October 25, 2004 Author Share Posted October 25, 2004 Upshot, I am going to name my first kid after you! Procoder (as it seems) is what I am looking for. I Did some more reseach on the web, it seems like it seems Procoder and Cinema Craft SP are the higher end MPEG-2 encoders that achieve super quality on the market. Oddly enough people are raving that version Procoder 1.5 is better than the new v2.0 in MPEG-2 encoding? Cinema Craft Pro seems to be a winner in most comparision charts but the price is higher than the comptuer I use... (discreet cleaner is okay, but according to people it is better for movies over the net). Unfortunately, reading the specs and seeing all the features of both cinema craft and Procoder is mind boggling. Both are a bit expensive but according to the Web they lead the MPEG-2 in terms of quality. I guess its time to download trial versions spend alot of sleepless nights trying to figure all this mumbo jumbo about GOB/bitrates etc, etc. Man someone should create a good tutorial what the heck this all means..... I agree with you rending out animation in TGA's at 720 x480 (since that the biggest size you get encoding onto DVD, anything more would be a waste of rendering time). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upshot Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 I don't see allot of difference between procoder 1.5 and 2.0 but, I'm not as picky about these things as others. One thing I would note is that once you get the material onto a dvd and are watching it on a tv a great deal of the fussy details you see while watching it on a computer monitor dissapear. It's important to remember that interlaced movies you watch on your monitor are being de-interlaced for playback (one source of artifacts) and many times resized (another source of artifacts). Glad I could help! It's not horrably complex once you grasp the big settings. I've never messed with stuff like the GOP structure and whatnot, but It's nice to know that procoder has the ability to adjust... Good luck! you'll get the hang of it quickly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugga_Guy Posted October 25, 2004 Author Share Posted October 25, 2004 Upshot, many thanks again.. You mentioned VOB files? how do you burn a vob file onto DVD? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upshot Posted October 25, 2004 Share Posted October 25, 2004 There is a standard file system that your stand-alone dvd player will understand. Pop any commercial dvd in your computer and explore the file system... You will find a video_ts folder that contains a series of small info files and a series of big VOB files. The VOB files are essentially the 'meat' of the dvd. They are essentially mpeg2 files and you can open them with a mpeg editor like mpeg-vcr. What I was referring to is procoder 2.0's ability to take just about any movie file and convert it into the ready to burn standard files system (including VOBs). This is essentially what an dvd authoring program does... It takes your collection of menus and movies and creates a ready to burn video_ts folder with a collection of files that any standard dvd player will understand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wokka Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 G'day, I'm just facing the same problem with HIGH QUALITY!! My problem is the client wants to present on a projector. I render out as you guys do (only PAL 720 * 576) but I think he wants to see Lord of the Rings production. Does this mean I'm suppose to render out at 1280 * 1024 to get maximum clarity? I would not think the projectors can emulate real high quality movies. Any advice Cheers Wokka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upshot Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 Well... You can do an animation at that resolution and compile it in premiere. I'd guess its serious crash bait depending on the length though... I've tried short sequences at 1024x768 and had some luck playing them back. Obviously it requires a dedicated system (like a laptop) and a good player prog. that will handle the codec you choose. The speed of the drive, cpu, and gpu comes into play to avoid dropped frames... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upshot Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 The other thought I just had was a quality dvd player with "upscaling" built in. I've never seen the results but they take a NTSC (or PAL) signal and digitally upscale it to 720p or 1040i. This may help quite a bit with standard DVD quality played back on a high res. projector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omar Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 your problem can be solved by rendering on decent vedio card like RT canopose your movei will be compresed by the hardware than you can export the project using procoder I think this shold solve your problem at least it did for me good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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